oh no, perish the thought! you go through all user's posts with a fine comb to make a spectacle of it, i'm sure.

haha, ok whatever you need to tell yourself man

This is a small concession that I would have made with no qualms for a community that i found otherwise enjoyable. It is only a minor inconvenience to diverge from usual, and deeply engrained, posting style, which as i said have only ever had people here voice ANY complaints about. It is likely because of the attitude of being Special and better than that is rampant on this forum, as evident by the magnitude of dogpiling once i started forcefully voicing contrary opinions. I understand the need to project that character flaw onto me though, it's ok.

seriously, just drop the pretense and ban me like you've wanted to, and they want you to, because yall are just working up my anxiety with your inability to just let something go and move on

Participation on TMD is voluntary - nobody is forcing you to post here. You are banned from TMD for 7 days for Mod Sass - if you grace us with your presence in the future, do not post in this thread again. This is a Full Warning.

-Godder

i have explained it. i feel that it's an over represented deck that narrows the scope of possibility within the format.
part of the problem is that i'm talking about what is absent in it's presence, and that's something than can not really be proven or disproven.

most of that info is not very easy to come by, and if it weren't that is an unreasonable demand for statistics in a casual conversation about vintage.
the fact that you wont even concede that it's the most played deck belies that your being facetious. a simple check of any popular metagame site would should faaar more shops than any other deck.

i never said it was. i'm just surprised to see so many people get so upset and jump to the defense of a deck that's so good at it.

which is why i'm surprised to see widespread acceptance of a deck that sets out to stop you from doing any of them from the get go.
again though this is a matter of personal taste, and i'm not the one attacking someone on their personal feelings about cardboard.

"polluting" haha yeah, but im supposed to engage with you in good faith  



i concede that that post in particular was kinda ugly but i think its hardly representative of my average post in structure, and ironically looks like that because i made the mistake of appeasing a diversion argument.
if i intended to keep posting here i would have had the courtesy to be a little more cognizant of structuring in the future since you appear so earnest

that's actually a good point, and were we to continue this it would lead to the real root of the problem which is the recurring black lotus that's not restricted, alas...

that it seeks to stop interaction
that it is almost a quarter of the field
that it pushes out other decks
you either aren't reading what i write or dismiss it offhand, either way why keep engaging with me if you seriously feel zero common ground can be found? it's you guys with this type stuff dragging these things out, not me, but w/e

I ONLY DID SO BECAUSE IT WAS DEMANDED I DO SO TO "PROVE" SHOPS WAS NECESSARY which is absurd.
if i turned the tables and used the same cheap tactic yall would be all over me for it
"prove to me now that workshops is THE ONLY way to stop rampant combo. prove no other combination of 75 in the vintage cardpool is viable in this purpose"


i said i disagree that there is no correlation between prevelance of shops, and viability of null rod as an anchor. i never said it was a single card lock, i said it was a tool. you're just constantly putting words in my mouth and shifting the argument.

show me you're fucking in depth thesis to support this or have it dismissed as "wild generalizations"
oops, forgot, that only works against me

 
grats, you stated the obvious when i never contested otherwise. gj. 7 points

show me where i said useless


because you're ridiculous for demanding i know what those deck will be. it's an intillectually dishonest tactic that paid off for you big time the moment i indulged it.


it's the same argument i already made, that there is faulty assumption that shops is some kind of magical savior singlehandedly holding the format together.


because it's a huge card pool with tons of tools and people smarter than me will find new ways to combat them. just because i didn't paint you a picture you dont find adequate doesn't mean no such possibilities exist.

fix'd

uh oh, wait, thats some 1337 speak isn't it? have i become some kind of cyber-punk? am i a cyber-bully? i better watch some dr. phil to find out.

no, im obviously not welcome to stay here, that's been obvious from the get go, and it's real cute that you wanna cling to the pretense that this is about "level of discourse"
i suggest you just give the people what they want and ban me now
can't say i'll be particularly sad about it since "what it  is" is a forum with outdated software, haphazard organization, a very hostile (and small) userbase, and not much actual deck discussion.

it is, however just about the only place for vintage talk, which is why i came in the first place. for that much at least, i thank you for trying to provide it

this is the first time i've mentioned them
this is also conveniently the first time they've been trod out against me, even though i knew it would come to this from day one and my tenure here would be brief.
i was content to just chit chat about cardboard until ulterior motives brought about this inevitable moment, but obv the zeitgeist here is does not find that tenable

consider that i post on a great deal of websites, and this is literally the first time i've had complaints about readability of my posts or claims of "incoherence"
that says more about the atmosphere here than it does about me, and tbh it's why there's very little activity here, despite a surge in vintage interest

"not willing to consider" is a lie. i have considered that there are possible trade-offs and dangers to a meta with a weakened shops. just because i disagree with you doesn't mean i'm "way off the mark" as you so authoritatively claim that "history and logic" support you in.

i'm kind of astounded to see the same bogus argument vintage players have to fight against, and the vsl has debunked to many people, used to defend a format warping deck. you're litterally just saying "but but but.....nothing but a turn1 kill hellscape everywhere!!!"

once again, i do recognize it.
you however, fail to recognize that that shops is not the only possible deck to serve this role!  that's a point i've already made and you refused to acknowledge it, instead demanding that i speculate on a fantasy meta so you can attack those instead of the base claim.


ONE SINGLE datapoint, and a tiny one at that, yet you're treating it like it's some damning case.

 
i play against belcher constantly online ever since people's hammer debuted, and you ARE going to be seeing more of it because it's a real deck whether you acknowledge that or not.
i've noticed it's often piloted by people new to vintage too, probably because of the publicity, but also because not everyone shares your tastes. i'm included in that. i find it cool and fun and i enjoy playing with and against it.

that's a matter of personal taste. so do you have a point other than taking a cheap shot?

it's like 9 lines and two paragraphs long. you either couldn't parse it because you didn't want to and found it easier to write off as "incoherent" or have bigger problems than my posts

i have given multiple descriptive examples!
as for data, it's not hard to look at meta breakdowns and see that shops is by far the most played deck, and that it possibly makes up as much as 25% of the field


OH MY GOD, DUDE!
because someone else chose to bring up this mythical meta instead of engaging on the real point. that's not even something i wanted to be discussing, but if i don't i get accused of "not backing up my claims" (when it has nothing to do with my claims) and if i do engage on it have to deal with shit like this.

a.) i disagree, null rod decks are bad because of how much better shops is at the same goal
b.) we'll never know who's right about that because this is all moot since wotc doesn't care about vintage balance and will never restrict $hop$ because the people who shelled out for them would likely be pissed enough to have at least some of them quit in disgust
c.) you're attacking a bunch of speculation about a meta that will never exist instead of making any case that shops isn't uninteractive and format warping

but i'm the one who won't bring sound arguments, uh huh.  

a meta that has little to no bearing on this discussion, which is why it's hilarious i've been dragged into it but i'll be the one perceived to be "derailing threads" when all i basically had to say was "gee vsl sure is fun, look at all the cool stuff happening without workshops stinking up the place"

i'll spell this out one more time
my claim is that workshops is oppressive, that it's goal is to have an non-interactive game, that the meta is warped around it.
instead of making any effort to refute this you used a diversion tactic. you demanded i speculate on the possibilities of a cardpool that is so vast we can never know what reactions it will have to changes. then you attack that speculation (which i shouldn't even have indulged you with) instead of laying out a case that my claim is untrue.

also, you're once again claiming definitively that 3 weeks of vsl play has shown you a complete picture of this hypothetical meta, when no one in thier right mind would claim vsl is representative of anything other than a funsies invitational tournament.

if you don't want me to act dismissively toward you and refuse to engage in the depth you desire, you have to be making reasonable and coherent arguments yourself. i'm already wasting enough time mired down in slapfights where people are more interested in "winning arguments" than exploring ideas

i'm articulate and well informed, thanks

not an issue

this is a great example of how antiquated and nonsensical these rules are. "AIMspeak"??? that was a thing for like 7 minutes in 2002

so basically you're just taking issue with
i have spent years on forums in which the default is no caps no punctuation. it has become second nature to me, and it feels natural in enabling a more organic form of communication. this is just a nitpicky little bullshit thing people are going to use to feel validated in disliking me because they find me to be abrasive. it might even become used as an convenient excuse to warn/ban me or whatever, but so be it, they'd have found their nominal reason anyway once they're looking for.

let's just not pretend it has anything to do with:
because my posts are fine, it's the content people find disagreeable

like i said, demanding suggestions for an imaginary meta and then attacking them is just a way to avoid the real issue at hand and not engage my actual argument

it's cute that you think this is about me complaining about how shops effects "my cool brews".
i have posted one deck to this site, and i play it because of it's shops matchup. what im displeased with is that shops has restricted my choices to such a degree, and no one seems to care because there is a popular attitude that shops is just not a problem and it's just and right that it should exist and just keep getting better.


"doubled down on bluster" lol ok
i am fully cognizant that i have opinions (magic or otherwise) that are not popular in the magic community.
how people react to them is beyond my control. in fact if you read that thread i tried to disengage and asked people to just drop it, but people can't help themselves, they feel a strong urge to dogpile on unpopular opinions with bad arguments

well, lets see null rod is not seeing much play right now, mostly because shops is better at locking things down and will bash with golems anyway
i'm sure we'd be seeing more thalias
tangle wire will still exist
using more hard control cards seems more appealing once you're problem doesn't become "oops too many dead cards against shops"
sideboards would no longer have the dual pressures of need both workshop and dredge tools, cards like mindbreak trap and others we're not expecting would become more common, causing meta changes

that's just a couple examples, but more importantly it doesn't matter what i think will fill its space, that's a cheap discrediting tactic. with a card pool as huge as vintage and a player base full of brewers who've been at it much longer than i, it's absurd to think that the inevitable result of the big one falling would be anything but 3 hitherto unplayed decks rising

you also refuse to see "i drew 2 chalice, a shops, and a golem" as just as bad a turn 1/2 thing to happen as (gasp!) a players invests all their resources in tendrils/belchering you. sure you get "more turns" against shops, but if a quarter of the time those turns are spent desperately looking for an answer to being under multiple sphere effects and/or tangle wire, did you reeeally get more turns? quality of turns matters, and even accepting the bad premise that the format devolves into the cliche of turn 1/2 wins constantly, they're more interesting and engaging turns to me than workshops produces anyway

bullshit criteria
there's a huuuge range of what people consider "fun". any deck with good tools against the meta will see play
i don't consider wokshop "fun". its goal is to have a non-interactive game

people keep making this same faulty assumption about shops
"shops is THE ONLY thing saving us from [insert disliked thing]"
it appears that way because shops pushes all other decks trying to fill similar meta niches out of serious consideration.
so instead of multiple decks with different angles of attack on the top/fastest deck, creating varying pressures on the decks that want to remain/move up to the top tier (aka a healthy environment) we are stuck with one deck so good at shutting down so many strategies that it warps the format around it.

the accepted definition of degenerate is real narrow imo
shops is degenerate and will only keep getting new toys set after set.

since a lot of new tools would become more realistic to use in a world without having to worry about absurd shops density, i'd guess "about the same"

as i already said, this is a small sample size and we're gonna see a lot of changes next week however:

it's almost as if they're abominations, never meant to exist with some awkward rules staple gunned in regardless of how they had to shoehorn it in with little though to balance or game impact  : -/

i think it's reasonable to conclude there's simply enough counters to protect it, however i am definitely questioning the need for a maindeck robot at all. it seems to me it's just always faster and safer to just focus on k/v. i also like to reserve the counters to either ensure my own spells resolving or stopping opponent's critical spells, not getting in a fight over a permanent.
also,
because of this, i think it's likely to see more than one stuck in their hand, so even if i have the misstep i might lose it.
i've just been disappointed one too many times by feeling like i've wasted my resolved tinker after something unexpected goes wrong with sphinx. it's much harder for something to go wrong when you have all the turns. i'm real happy just relying tezzeret as my finisher in the main

i agree with this. i have a strong aversion to notion thief. it's exactly the kind of durdley card i'm trying to avoid imo. it turns currently dead cards into live ones for opponent who have bolts/fireice/path ect

yeah, it's based on the SCV framework (thus the name dack city vault, or cruise city vault when it had 5 acalls) for me though, the draw of SCV is the thoughtcasts and speed of setup, not the ability to race toward a win.
i really don't like the reliance on draw sevens though. those "three mana bombs" comes with serious drawbacks imo, and i'd much rather run the deck in a more control based stance than combo. i am basically looking to play a hard reactionarry/control role until the moment i can resolve tinker/tezz/tutor for vault and win on the spot, whether that comes on turn 1 or turn 6

i don't see how. it has been annoying having to switch to DTT's double blue requirements instead of maxing out on "u:draw 3", but between dack and all the "real" mana this deck can dump on field it's fairly easy to  fire off delve spells pretty early, and sometimes 2 at once even

discarding and welding sphinx was about the best use of it i had while it was maindecked, and in a different build of this i would absolutely recommend this approach.
the only reason i don't pursue it (aside from souring on md robot in general) is lack of space. having this robust a counter suite comes with hard cuts, and it means there just isn't room for things like bolts, extra welders ect
i think you may be right though that at least dack #4 deserves consideration along with DTT#4 for the spot that's currently mox pearl

this thread organization system, and vintage deck names in general are really annoying, so i guess this is the closest to appropriate thread for this
dack is real real powerful and i'm still loving this deck, even though it doesn't get to play 5 ancestrals anymore


Dack City Vault

3 Dack Fayden
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Goblin Welder

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
3 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
2 Voltaic Key

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall


1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Treasure Cruise
3 Dig Through Time
4 Thoughtcast

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy

SB
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wasteland
2 Pyroblast
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Engineered Plague
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

dack + delve is simply a safer, more control oriented way to see tons of cards than draw sevens, and makes the deck much better against workshops. between that and thoughcast it's so easy to get up on card over the opponent i dont see any reason to let them see 7. seriously feels great every time seeing opponent cast preordain when i just get to draw 2 outright, especially in conjunction with dack who loves raw number of cards for filtering.
i've stripped away pretty much everything that isn't counters, mana, or draw/tutor. pretty narrowly focused on just untapping a time vault as priorities 1,2,3, and 5
engineered plague is (im hoping) a good flexible tool against both delver if it sticks around and mentor if it becomes the dominant creature deck, while mainting value in other matchups

i'm currently pondering mox pearl vs a fourth DTT
also what robot to run. i'm expecting more StP with the rise of mentor decks, which means the sphinx i loved up until now is likely useless.

you're basing that on a very small sample size, but even if not this is actually more diverse than the most played decks in the meta now which basically comes down to "delver, shops, and grixis make up 60% of the field"

which is it? do you want to see "more broken stuff, or "non-greedy mana bases?"
i think without workshop omnipresence you'd just have aggro with 4 waste and some null rods take that roll anyway. you're assuming it's the only thing that can possibly keep that boundary on the format.


and if mentor pushes delver out of the format half those cards are useless and change will happen.
even if it doesn't thats a terrible sb against decks like doomsday that would become more playable.
even if it results in just two dominant decks instead of 3, more decks would emerge to prey on those two, whereas now they cant because they usually would just lose to shops.
only good things things would come from a world with less workshops stifling the meta

it's like getting a peek into a healthy, more open format and i love it.

yeah this was pointed out to me irl and i so relieved. i think im sticking with it now. turning mentor into a 1/1 prowess is good enough considering its value in other matchups imo.

definitely looking at echoing truth lately.

moat is interesting actually
caltrops has the same problem as it had against delver. they will just hurkyle's/rebuild and swing through it

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
every fuckin thing for the last five years has had "human" needlessly tacked on it, except these damn tokens
: -(     : -/
boo to this

guess it's back to testing janky stuff like night of soul's betrayal and consume the meek

i too had been pondering what sb tool to use if mentor is now going to force out pyromancer.
i think i'm actually gonna try engineered plague instead of illness
it dodges the missteps, is much better against the aggro decks that want a cavern naming humans, and has fringe value against any poor saps who might shuffle merfolk

i wouldn't bother im done engaging the pile of empty arguments.


cant stand carlin's shock radio jock voice, have never been able to listen to him
if you want some byzantium though, after mike duncan wrapped up his ~5 year project History of Rome at the collapse of western empire, some english dude picked up and moved forward with the eastern empire. it's titled simply History of Byzantium

duncan went on to his current project, another solid podcast Revolutions

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you're the one who can't be bothered to acknowledge the texts i've already referenced refuting this myth of american exceptionalism  committing to "rebuilding conquered lands"
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/187149.Open_Veins_of_Latin_America
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78130.Killing_Hope?ac=1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1237300.The_Shock_Doctrine?ac=1

modern empire insists on taking everything, down to charging you for the water of your own country once it has bombed/funded a coup/invaded/turned you to debt slave

you also just really directly supported the notion that theft through violence is aaaaall hunky dorey, we control it now so how we got it literally doesn't matter, which again is morally reprehensible

they never owned the means to provide for themselves because of the systemic theft, pillage, and violence of their people by imperialism.
to argue that nothing was taken from them is absurd, unconscionable, self serving, and irresponsible

you presume it was theirs to give or not give in the first place, and not acquired through illegitimate means
it is OWEd

if you steal my bike and i force you to buy me a replacement, you are not giving me a gift

noami klein (author of the fantasic shock doctrine) has a new book specifically about laying out the case that the climate crisis is intimately tied to the nature and behavior of capital
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21913812-this-changes-everything

http://valuesmessage.org/info/Capitalism%20vs%20the%20Climate.pdf
http://climateandcapitalism.com/2015/01/15/earth-crosses-four-nine-planetary-boundaries/
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/what-it-would-really-take-to-reverse-climate-change
http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-transition-to-sustainable-energy.html


you calling them gifts is an ideological position. i see it as basic human rights that should be provided with the stolen wealth accumulated under capital

david graeber is a respected anthropologist and debt is a rather rigorous work that you owe it to yourself to give a try. it's a much more coherent look at economics than the recently popular  capital in the 21st century by the ill informed thomas piketty

delusional optimism. it's too late. extinction is inevitable at this point.


actually i've given it a great deal of thought. these are isues i study at lenght, and in fact i've already posted a great text on the subject ITT which i would happily send you
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt?ac=1



save money by making all public universities free to attend
end corporate personhood
end coerced (and ineffective) austerity measures through imf and world bank
stop supporting isreali apartheid
staff and fund epa, labor board, etc
end focus on irs harassment of individuals and focus on systemic corporate fraud
enact a living wage requirement

this list goes on and on and you can tap dance around questions of logistics all you want but they're all very doable, sensible, and humane

but it is pretty obviously shaping your worldview and that's very relevant.

you claimed to definitively know that an economic system was impractical. that's a huge reach and pretty obvious assertion of your firm understanding of the subject.

because these non-arguments dont deserve any better. you have no idea how many times i've had to deal with these same automatic canned attacks being trotted out every time this subject comes up, and it's simply not practical for me to engage the same bad arguments over and over. seriously, if you want in depths rebuttals to them go to rev left and post them, im sure there's plenty of people there with the time and patience for it.

i called your assertions unscientific, you claim they are sound. we're going in circles, please stop


gee it doesn't feel very good to have a garbage argument thrown against you thoughtlessly does it? also, you misunderstand "equitable"

no, bad shit happened man. i never refuted that. i acknowledge abuses that happened under leftist regimes, which is more than any of you are willing to do here for capital. i used this example specifically for reasons i'll get to in a moment.


it was very spcifically chosen because it cuts to the heart of the issue here.
empires are as much built on and of information as anything. the current global regime has done what all empires have done, it has tinted the lenses through which we see history. the crimes of communism are played up endlessly, while the ongoing crimes of capital are not even alluded to as being the responsibility of capital, but of "bad actors" and individual determinism.
i do not deny the famine. i do not deny some policies made the situation worse. what i refute absolutely is the the disney-villainesque narrative that it was a genocidal plot from the start to punish the peasantry.
the truth is it happened in a region that had been stricken by repeated and cyclical famine for a very long time, and that in fact strides were already made toward alleviating the great suffering it caused. there were worse famines time and again under the tzars, but it is not seared into the collective conscience the way holodomor is because it is not convenient to the capitalist narrative of the pure evil of communism.
here is a good starting point for reading on the subject and i'd be happy to supply further reading.
http://rt.com/news/prime-time/where-did-americas-missing-millions-go-holodomor-lessons/


most leftists nations in the world have struggled with a long history of violence at the hand of capital and are barely into recovering. the united states has more to do with lower quality of life in places like cuba, venezuela,  chile, brasil, ect than socialism or communism.


communism has done more to empower people and give them a chance to build prosperous and peacful lives than capitalism ever will
there, we both threw out equally unsupport and broad claims. yay internet discussion!


no, he didn't. america has left a long legacy of "rebuilding" puppet governments, ofter far right in nature, often bloodthirsty, always oppressive to its people. i have posted information detailing as much, see killing hope and the open veins of latin america


north korea is a far right dictatorship that was virtually leveled by american bombs (to a criminal degree)
it is Not a leftist government and the repeated labeling of places like north korea, china, and russia as "communist" betrays the fundamental lack of firm understanding of politics and economics endemic to the lazy psuedo-intellectual defenders of capitalism.

capitalsim can't work at all and is completely unsustainable
yay more blanket empty statements. fun!


because i long ago stopped engaging with the tactic of demanding immediate and extensive accounting under the assertion that if i don't spend an inordinate amount of time an energy digging through research for you that any assertions i make are invalid.
it's intellectually dishonest, tiresom, and very commonplace. to even begin talking about numbers we would first need to enter a larger discussion of context, reliability of sources, and a whole bevy of other issues that frankly aren't worth the time to educate people who are so blatantly hostile to ideas and interpretations outside of the common capitalist myths.

use it's exorbitant military budget to work toward securing fundamental human rights worldwide. food, education, healthcare, and housing for every human being full stop no exceptions. instead of funding worlwide terror campaigns, occupations, and political attacks (coups).
use it's vast influence to protect the ecosystem instead of make it easier to ruin the planet for profit.
dismantle its racist paramilitary police force.
declare a debt jubilee.
there are hundreds of actions the united states could take to make the world a better place, but we terrorize and oppress instead. it is a conscious brutal choice, and it is inexcusable.

you literally just regurgitated some of the go-to deflections and empty arguments used by neoliberal ideology, and you've admitted you aren't familiar with it, yet you're certain it is not the framework of your worldview. you're simply not as knowledgeable about economic systems and histories as you think you are
your...um..."argument" against communism is basically just a "human nature" cliche and a tautological presenting of problems with past regimes you assert are intractable and fatal flaws.
i could sit here and sling back the same tired shit with capital instead of communism inserted to show you how devoid of content they are (capitalism works on paper but it's never created an equitable society, lol) but it's a waste of time because im not going to change any minds here obv.
for every holodomor (a lie btw) stuck on your mind, i see more deaths on the hands of capital every year, and we're obviously never going to agree on that

again, here's more suggested reading
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2189191.An_Economic_History_of_the_USSR
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2029452.Socialism_Betrayed?ac=1
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/07/the-lies-we-tell-about-lenin/
i am entirely genuine in offering files of any of the texts i have recommended ITT

we could do a whole hell of a lot better than we're even thinking about attempting rn and in fact some studies suggest it could be done for just 30 bn a year
you claim to be interested in firm science and then continue to throw around vague denials like this.


those are both market based economies and firmly in the purview of capital

you don't even know what neoliberal means but you think I need to study more history?


 really tired trope. if you wanna argue in circles around cliches may i direct you to http://www.revleft.com/vb/


full communism

let me boil it down very simply before i stop engaging with this thread entirely
7 billion people now face the prospect of no future. of our grandchildren (possibly even children) dying of starvation on an uninhabitable rock. all so that 85 people could control more wealth than over 50% of the population
nothing short of the extinction of our species is the cost of our actions in the 20th and 21st century. defending capitalism means defending not only its long legacy of violence, not only the unacceptable conditions of 6ish billion people today, but the xenocide of the innumerable people who would have come in future generations
if you wanna deny that it's too late to avert the worst of the climate crisis, fine that's pretty en vogue rn. but dont come talking to me about science and data after if you aren't going to listen to the repeated warnings of ecologists and climatoligist

obsession with "hard numbers", especially when dealing with someone like this for which you know full well those numbers are going to vary wildly based source is a diversion tactic and i wont be dragged into wasting my time gathering resources for a pretty simple claim that you refute on principle anyway



yes, i can. we have enough resources to feed everyone. capitalism is the dominant global structure, and it fails to prioritize not starving people to death.

yes it is. the amount of people governed by non-capitalist or capitalist controlled organizations is miniscule.

yes, you are. you're very directly being an apologist for america's long legacy of repeated genocide, support of fascism, and general atrocities.  
you're saying the most powerful structure in the world can't be blamed for starvations' continued existence and you're so firmly in the corner of neoliberalism you don't even see it as taking sides.
im a pretty big student of history, dude. it's what lead me to a historical materialist perspective, and frankly this dismissive attitude is what's keeping me from engaging with specific requests in depths on this thread. they do not come from a place of genuine curiosity and engagement, you've pre-judged this and land firmly on the side of neoliberal ideology.

more recommended reading to any lurkers who may be curious
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt?ac=1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/325785.Capital_Vol_1?ac=1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/183033.A_Brief_History_of_Neoliberalism?ac=1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2767.A_People_s_History_of_the_United_States?ac=1
im happy to provide these texts to any interested parties who contact me