Fantastic read.

Whilst I love Caverns, did you test the old Mountain & Barbarian Ring combination as another route to victory under the ensnaring bridge? I've found it amazing in the dredge match up.

If a player keeps in mental misstep to answer your 3-4 Welders & Sol Ring, then that is fine. As that's more cards they can draw that don't do anything against a Stax, lodestone, crucible, SoR or beater.

I would consider ditching the 2nd bazaar for a Ex.Map. Yes map is slow, but Bazaar takes a land drop regardless and the extra flexibility to be able to grab a strip mine/buried ruin/academy could really be worth it. But needs to be weighed with how often chalice at one is going to be relevant.

I don't like that you play 2 different high end beaters, which neither deal with a resolved planeswalker which could steal or bounce it. For this I really like Karn. It drops to the board to animate a beater that turn to usually kill a planeswalker or to finish an opponent off in no time at all, whilst he is munching on moxes, clearing redundant COTV and when teamed up with a welder he destroys the shops matchup. The thing I love about shops is the consistency, you play so many 4 of's to rely on a strategy, so why would you then drop in two one of's? I get that drawing a second copy is bad, but I think that variance is worth it personally.

I haven't tested cavern, but instead play the old Barbarian ring split with mountain 3/3. This is because I play ensnaring bridge and use it as a kill condition with CoW in a few match ups like shops/dredge and even blue mages who have been trapped under spheres and a stax. Not to mention freeing up your welders from pesty revokers as they can't name lands. But can def see the advantages of casting through COTV and counters.

I really like null rod due to the math, it shuts off more of your opponents cards than your own in the matchups you want it. I play it out of the board personally.

I also dropped the revokers from my board for pithing needles, which does expose me to mental missteps. However, I got sick of them being bolted, swords, etc. Being able to stop your opponents waste lock has saved me a few times or stopping them from beating down with man lands or shutting off a turn 1 LoA.

Getting slack Josh, wheres our Lists!!! We demand more lists!!!!

0.My experience with similar lists, is that you won't struggle to find a red source with 4 bazaars, crucibles. I would suggest you cut 2 red sources and replace with ancient tombs. I also feel that 4 Bazaars is too many, whilst you can bazaar multiples....it really hurts drawing multiples in the first few turns, so I would cut it back to 3.

Yes, pridemage can blow stuff up, but the fact you can recur with welder and dig into multiples with bazaar, means its not as concerning.

No Love for Bazaar? I think its great at digging for the answers you need in match ups like dredge, Filtering away dead cards like crucible and smokestax when in multiples,  has great synenrgy with welder adn can offset the card disadvantage with a crucible. Also reduces the need for so many red sources in the deck (not saying you should go below 6 lands + mox + lotus).

I dislike the fact your running 2 thorns, but only have 8 creatures/3 metamorph and express how you need answers to trygon, fish, and aggro workshops whoch thorn does nothing about. I really like Trike, Iknow its hard on the casting cost but he's brutal in all of those match ups even if the threat resolves after him. Plus he is annoying to Jace players.

Ensnaring Bridge I think is amazing against shop aggro shop players as all they can do is fill your hand by cutting off ya mana sources and if theats happening you were already loosing. It is difficult for dregde to deal with once you throw down some spheres and a cotv. But I think it works best if you play 2-3 bazaars and an alternate wincondition like 2-4 Barbarian Rings.

Shattering spree Is a card I love on paper, rarely will you get it for more than 2 copies in my exp (played 6 red lands and haven't played with magus of the moon) due to struggling to get an appropriate quantity of red sources and mana for sphere effects thats not shops. Whilst Both shop players board out their SoR & Thorns, lodestone stays in. I think its worth considering Rack n Ruin which can get you out of a bind when facing a tangle wire. Heretic can't falls into the same category as shattering spree for me. Its awesome, but trying to stick is a struggle through wastelands, lodestone and wires at sorcery speed.

Dismember is an interesting choice, what does it kill that has a toughness greater than 3? Tarmogoyf, Trike & Steel Hellkite come to mind....otherwise I think I would prefer to play a more versatile lightning bolt to kill the ever popular Jace.... oh and kill players old school burn style  But I guess that depends on the number of red sources you play adn if bazaar filtering

Leyline is a great card, but it makes chain of Vapor to good....I know it stops all activity for them until they can either cast a claim or chain, whilst a crypt/relic would be spent and then allow them to continue. I really like the crypt and relic to provide cover until I land a bridge and sphere/cotv them out.

Greater Gargs is amazing against Oath as you can let it resolve smash them and then sac it out to another one or preventing it from resolving when the counters run out by not playing for sphere effects LOL. Its also very handy against Fish & aggro shop...as most players board out their creature removal seeing as your prison deck. Suspending a Gargs on 1st turn against Fish puts them under a great deal of preassure. Whilst Shop is trying to waste your lands, or your wires are running out off they go to feed your lurking monster hahaha.

This is what I played 12months ago and found it pretty good. i haven't tested it for a while mind you. This was just a couple of weeks after Gushes unrestriction, So the deck was around much.....obv before Metamorph and dismemeber. I pla in a heavy shop, dredge & time vault blue control metagame.....well did. I would obv make some changes now

Main Deck
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds - probably cut 1
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Goblin Welder
2 Triskelion

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bazaar of Baghdad - probably cut 1
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard
4 Greater Garadon
4 Shattering Spree
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

Obv the main thing to consider - Is it worth compremising your mana base from the strong shop/tomb/traitors for the inclusion of maindeck welder and some sideboard cards?

Have been thinking the same thing, even more so after the success of the MUD at Worlds and the gush bob decks. So firstly we need to identfy the cards we are currently failing to combat, before we can even begin to access what cards are not pulling their weight. The 2 cards that obv stand out are Dark Confindant & trygon, which thorn fails to affect.

So how do we combat these cards? Do we continue with the mindset we are just gonna keep them off the table or play things like trike, dup or hellkite to kill them where they stand???

I'm thinking of going back to playing Red Staxs. Whilst welder is great against shop & control, the mana base is far from as consistant and that is a problem.

When playing workshop decks, I've only ever played the mono red staxs variety. Alot of that has to do with the consistance of the deck and loving the strength of Goblin Welder, being able to fit through control decks conterspells and deal with tinkered botz. However, since the printing of Inkwell & Sphinx I've found myself trying to find other ways to deal with these botz. Usually having to either rely on them not resolving, smokestax with a tanglewire keeping it busy or a duplicant.

Now with the printing of Blightsteel Collossus, i think that welder has never looked so good. It allows the deck to have an additional out against the current popular tinkered bot, whilst also playing havoc in workshop match ups. Not to mention annoying the hell out of those damn pesty trygon's. I understand that mud gains access to more consistant mana base with anceint tombs and city of traitors, but is that worthwile when considering the benefits of playing cards like welder, rack and ruin & greater garadon???

Seeing that I haven't played any of the other workshop variants, I was curious to hear others opinions on what they believe to be the stronger deck in the current metagames and why???

Hi Punki,

I think it comes down to what you want that slot to do for your deck. I play a Mono Red Staxs list, and in my deck I have 2 slots for 5/6 cost dudes. I see Wurmcoil as a great beatdown card, but prefer to fill that slot with a card that combats cards that my deck struggles with ie dark confidant, Jace, trygon, welder, fish dudes.

As the rest of my deck was weak against these cards once they resolved, and my sideboard didn't do much to help either. That is why I decided to go for Trike, as he can beat things up but usually is an answer to all the cards above. Whilst he might not be as good as Wurmcoil when facing a Destroy effect, he was an answer card that got the job done as soon as he came into play. but could also still answer a card if it resolved after trike was in play (unlike dup). Compared to Wurmcoil which to me, is more of a game ending beat down card.

Staxs traditionally didn't play more than 4 beaters to finsh the game, and Lodestone golem is the dude to fill that role in my deck. The rest of the time opponents will usually scoop to a lock.

I believe there is no correct answer, just a metagame call. Last month I played in a 50person tourny which i expected to contain alot of Jace Control, Red/Mud Staxs and Noble Fish. Trike was awesome for me all day. Trike was a powerhouse against cards I really feared and expected to see alot of all day.

Whilst its fine to say that Hellkite is great in the mirror or against Mud, I think you should justify your answer. Welder is a one drop and just beats hellkite not to mention that the bulk of red staxs will be playing 4 sorcery speed artifact destruction spells. So requiring an attack step is asking alot in any matchup now. I think you need to look at all the hate being played at the moment and ask yourself if you can afford that extra turn.

Pridemage
Natures Claim
H.Recall
Rebuild
Jace
Shattering Spree
Welder

I honestly don't believe you can afford to run an answer that doesn't affect the game state straight away at that high a casting cost. I struggle to justify this argument as i love Smokestack, but find its a lot easier to cast. Maybe Hellkite could be played in a Super Aggro MUD deck a due to its huge body and ability to disrupt. But I don't think it has a place in Mono Red Prison styles.

Myr Battlsphere might be good in the shop mirror match due to the extra perms and the ability to attack...but I would rather play a answer that covers more of the field. This has been discussed in the Mono Red thread as well

as discussed above, Mox Opal really isn't good in this deck

There is a sufficeint number of red sources in this deck totalling 8. Remember that your only running 8 red cards, 4 of which provide mana whilst you wait til they become active when you reach threshold. Not to mention the 3-4 Bazaars to dig into them.

4 Barbarian Rings
2 Mountians
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

I'm pretty rubbish at sideboarding. But this is what my sideboard consists of

4 Greater Gargadon - Great for buying time against Oath and amazing against Noble Fish as they have no way to deal with him
4 Shattering Spree - Obv there for the Shop matchup, but i sometimes mix it up with heretics
2 Relic of Progen - Ichirod
2 Tormods Crypt - Ichirod
3 Ensnaring Bridge - Ichirod, Oath, Noble Fish, goblins,  anything that attacks really

I normally fall down on what to board out....would love to hear yorur approaches

If you resolve Y'Will and replay a flash....wouldn't that prevent the hulk from going to the graveyard?

Seems that the combo requires alot of cards which are useless in their own right, when compared to TV or other combo decks....resulting in alot of dead draws. The power that was flash, was its ability to go off so consistantly (due to tutors), fast (due to tutors and b.storm) and protected (still hae all that)..... I understand your not trying to recreate the same deck, as the meta game has changed significantly since then.

@ THE SHOP

Could you run me through your thought process and testing regarding your choice of Duplicant??? I use to run Duplicant, but ended up going for Trike in my build due to the high number of Welders in my meta and Dark Confidants/Jace.

EDIT - Was struggling with the rising number of Noble Fish decks, and found that Trike was like card advantage

My concern with Myr Battlesphere is much the same as Dragon, in that it requires an attack step to change the game state (apart from Jace bouncing him). I do understand that it provides additional permanents for smokey & wires, but that is really just a bonus in every other matchup than workshop decks.  Its just a big must answer clock, but mono red stacks isn't really about finishing the game quickly. It involves crafting a prison that either the opponent can't get out of or disrupting long enough to kill them. Whilst the Myr is most certainly a fast clock and still smashes face through blockers, I don't feel it does enough. Karn use to fill the quick kill function whilst as a bonus shooting moxes for a much cheaper casting cost. However, I've felt that Lodestone has removed the need for such a card in the deck. As he is cheap, fast and disruption. It allows the deck to change roles, from controlling the game creating a prison to I'm gonna be the aggro beatdown player.

Myr does at least provide you with something if it gets Natured Claimed or Pridemaged, but nothing if you get recalled. And I think thats where comparing the possible alternatives for the role is good. What do you want the card in this slot to achieve? Does th deck have enough threats? Is it fast enough?

Cards like Smokey & Ratchet are hard to love and hate. Whilst they're able to deal with any permanent that is a problem, they at the same time require a number of turns to actually become active and answer said threat. Whether it be sitting a Smokey on 1 and watching it eat your opponents mana sources til they're buried in spheres or charging Ratchet up to 2 to deal with an Oath. Ratchet annoys me more in this regard as what matchups are you hoping to use it in? Most decks will bounce it or destroy it before it can get enough counters on it. Smokey on the other hand is at least eating the opponents precious permanents, making wastelands, spheres and wires more effective.

For the reasons above I really liek Trike, he deals with Trygon, Welder, Bob, Jace, taking out Bridge from Below and shooting fishes stupid dudes.

I would be relucant to remove moxes for mox opal, as you require the quick mana and frequestly the 3rd artifact you play is a lock piece which requires the mana from the mox. Which a Opal wouldn't provide. Not to mention that with 8 red sources in the deck (3 mountain, 3 Barb Ring, Mox & lotus) should be enough given the low number of red cards actually being played and the 3 bazaars to dig into them.

I tried to post here as well, but was unable to start a thread. Heres a short tourny report I wrote

My Vintage Legends story actually starts a week before the event. So the AFL (Australian Football League) grandfinal was a draw, resulting in a replay the following weekend......OH NO thats Vintage Legends. Whilst everyone at the BBQ was high-fiving and celebrating the idea of doing it all again the following weekend, I was torn on what to do.

I'm no huge AFL supporter, but I have been attending the same BBQ event for the past 4yrs on GrandFinal Day. I cook the BBQ at my friends place for 30-50 people. Whilst i don't care about watching the footy, I really enjoy the massive party and catch up. I actually had been out drinking the night beofre the 1st AFL grandfinal and crashed at the people hosting the saturday events place. We got up at 9:30am and started drinkign Gin & Cranberry juice whilst i made banana pancakes for breakfast.

After some hard thinking i finally decided on thursday that I would be playing magic. The AFL grandfinal is an annual event and so is the Vintage Legends tourny. The AFL, had had their day, now it was time for Vintage to have its. Below is my decklist and a brief description of what i remember from the day.

Main Deck
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Goblin Welder
2 Triskelion

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard
4 Greater Garadon
4 Shattering Spree
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I don't own a Black Lotus at the moment, so i played a second Ancient Tomb instead. Whilst its a colourless mana source, I felt that was fine as I have 3 Bazaar's to find red sources and its still acceleration. Also helps being an extra perm. However I'd probably cut 1-2 Crucibles as i had a few instances through out the day where I drew multiples. But the problem was compounded as I didn't have a bazaar to filter them. Otherwise i was really happy with the list.

I played the following matchups

WIN - Noble Fish
WIN - Dredge
WIN - Jace Control
WIN - Dregde
ID - Jace Control
LOST - Jace Control
WIN - Jace Control same as round 5
WIN - Oath
WIN - Jace Control same as round 6

Round 1 - Rhys Gould with Noble Fish 2-0
I was on the draw and and started off a bit conecerned as my opponent has 2 Hierach, Pridemage & Clique in play to my cruicble, sphere & Lodestone. I Barbiran Ring the Clique and he pops my Lodestone with pridemage and Claims my Crucible and continues the beat down with the hierach. But I rip another golem to race, whilst also keeping him off enough mana to cast Kataki. Ripping another barbrian ring to take down a hierach is enough to get me there.


Game 2 has my opponent mulligan to 6 and start with Plains. I throw down a chalice at 2 and passing back. My opponent adds a Lotus Petal to his board and passes the turn back. I through down a smoke stack and suspend Gargadon and my opponent never plays another permanant, seeing him scoop them up whilst I have Smokey, CoTV @2, Crucible and 3 Gargadon's suspended.

Round 2 - Matthew Pohlen with Dredge 2-0
I mulligan to 5 whilst my opponent mulligans to 3 and serum powders before finding Bazaar. On the play i throw down Bazaar, Mox, Mana Vault & Trinisphere. He drops a Bazaar and I play a waste land on the bazaar with him discarding nothing really of note except for a Thug. He manages to get 3 rainbow lands and is beating me down with a thug and dredged Narco. I get a welder to the board and waste more lands, and eventually bazaar into both Trikes and have crucible lock.

Game 2 sees my opponent keep his 7, starting with a Leyline of the Void, Bazaar and Unmasking my T.Crypt. I play my Welder and pass it back to him. I hide under an ensnaring bridge with a bazaar in play until I set a CoTV at 1 and play some sphere effects in fear of a dread return Woodfall Primus that I saw in game 1. I lay down a second bridge in the face of a zombie army, due to ichrod's & bridge's. i throw down another Chalice at 4 to stop any dread return surprises and the game ends with my opponent's library empty.

Round 3 - Liam Prasad with Jace Control 2-0
I got liam into vintage and have played each other heaps, so we both have a fair idea on the others list. He starts the game with 6 mana by turn 2 but no gas to cast. I play lodestone and beat him down whilst playing some lock pieces, but ultimately his deck provided the resources but nothing to do with them.

Game 2 sees my opponenet frustrated at Crucible and sphere whilst a Golem starts to beat down. The game ends with him not doing much other than cast V.Key and DT.

Round 4 -  Ezekiel Guilfoyle with Dredge 2-1
Game one is a blow out with me keeping a good hand for against a control deck and him making heaps of zombies and dread returning Zealot.

Game 2 has him mulligan to 1. I throw down a Tormod, welder. Followed up with a CoTV @1 and an ensnaring bridge. Lodestone Golem joins the team and wraps up the game.

Game 3 sees me hiding under a bridge and poping Relic's & Tormod's after wasting Bazaars. He has 7 zombies & 4 Rainbow lands to my 2 dudes and CoTV @1. he Echoing truths my Bridge in my end step costing 4 due to sphere effects, but doesn't have enough zombies in play to kill me or mana to be able to cast DreadReturn due to Undiscovered paradises and trinisphere. So he he draws his last card and scoops.

Round 5 - ID with Isaac Egan

Round 6 - Daniel Unwin with Jace Control 0-2
I didn't do much in this round at all. My oppenent started both games with turn 1 Confidant and was able to get a Jace on the board. My deck just didn't want to supply the necessary tools.

Ended up 6th at the end of the Swiss and hassle Isaac to start our final match ASAP and avoid the 30min break as I'm keen to leave and go drinking with friends at a BBQ that I ditched for the tourny. Yet in fear of what they are gonna make me drink to catch up, seeing as they started drinking at 2pm.

Isaac Egan with Jace Control 2-1
Don't remember much of this round but in the final game I was trying to bait his counters and removal so i could play a Golem. I had CoTV @ 2 & 3 shutting down most of his removal and win conditions, seeing the Golem get there as he kept him from casting Jace due to only having 4 lands.

Kenneth Cheong with Oath 2-0
Its a charmed life to be on the play knowing your opponents deck and dropping a CoTV @2. I beat down with a golem and have multiple lock pieces comprising of smokey, wires, etc.

Game 2 isn't much nicer with 1st turn trinisphere from me. I keep him tangled with 2 wires and have a garadon suspended and try to get a Golem before he can do anything. He Claims my golem in upkeep, but I sac down for the gargadon and smash face twice to win the game.

Daniel Unwin with Jace control 2-1

We briefly discuss a prize split, as I already have a LoA & Pearl. But after some abuse from bystanders to stop being pussy's and play it out. So we do just that, as I would have been happy walking away with either card anyways. So we shuffle up and I start drinking my second beer.

I won game 1 with my usual beat down and lockout strategy. Game 2 sees me mulligan to 5 and get beat down by an early tinkered Sphinx without me doing anything relevant.

Game 3 is super intense with me feeling confidant as I have a Golem thats smashed him 3 times, dropping his life total to 2. But he drops a Clique in my end step, untaps and slams down a jace to bounce my Golem. Things aren't looking to good now with myself now on a low 8 life due to Mana Vault and Ancient Tomb usage. I untap with 2 cards in hand, knowing i have 3 barbiarn rings and 2 trikes in the deck. Draw and activate my Bazaar finding Trike!!!!! I slam'd it down and my opponent offers his hand and I start cheering and screaming!!!!!!

Huge thanks is owed to all the people who put in a massive amount of time and effort to make this tourny the success it was. I had an awesome day. So I eventually made it to my BBQ at 10:20pm and discovered some people were still kicking on.

I'm a huge fan of the Mono Red Staxs, I find it the most consistant version of staxs due to the high number of 4 ofs. I'm curious to hear peoples opinions on what they cut to fit Lodestone Golem into the deck, or if he even made it into the deck. As I'm really struggling to work out what to cut. I know most games are won by opponents being locked out and just scooping, but the ablity to steal games cause you have a quick clock can't be deny'd. As there have been plenty of games were my opponent and I are in topdeck mode with not much happening, and a dude probably would have won me the game.

I'm aware this is an old thread, but didn't really feel like it required a new thread. If this is wrong please delete.

i played this deck in a small 15 person tourny on the weekend. I've been playing with Mono Red staxs for years now and love the deck, but I think I have a new soul mate with this new BR version. I played against Fish & Sui black in the tourny, and found myself wanting to board out null rod to bring in the Hertics. Whilst this may seem counter productive whilst also bring in the Tabernacles, it bought me time. I was able to block their annoying 2/2's and throw lock pieces into counterspells, at the end of the day, I have more lock components than they have counters....So its a matter of when they run out, not if!!!

I lost the first game to BUG with my opponent dropping 1st turn goyf and playing 2 FoW in my first turn.....Rough. Second game i ground it out of him. Third he got an early tinker for sphinx, and I couldn't get a tangle wire down faster enough.

I've done a little playtesting with this deck and read the series of TPS artciles you've written (which i found very insightful and helpful). However I seem to struggle on when to use my duress. Do you fire it off first turn to see what your opponent is playing and disrupt their game plan, or do you hold on to the Duress until the turn you want to push through a threat/bomb?

Also when to use tutors. Do you reserve them for the turn you are going off, or do you play them out each turn to sculpt your hand? If I play them out turns 1 and 2 I need the extra mana from the moxes in my hand, but you advised to hold them until the critical mass turn.

All upkeep triggers occur at "the beginning of upkeep" This was changed a number of years ago on all cards.

just curious of what you guys normally board out. Sideboarding has always been my worst skill in the game.

Hi Kenny,

This be Dan from melbourne. I'm erally dissapointed I didn't get to see the deck running, its a really amazing list. Have to do some playtesting sometime.

Do you think that adding Tinker DSC to the main will affect if you play Chain in the main as well?

I'm in the middle of building this deck, I'm very excited about it.

Well I've been playing Vintage for a year now, I want say serious vintage. I play in Australia, and there is very little combo in the form of IT, GL...

Haven't seen a tog list around for a while so Heres my decklist,

1 Library of Alexandria
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning Wish
2 Deep Analysis
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Mana Drain
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Psychatog
1 Gush


Sideboard:
1 Berserk
1 Corpse Dance
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Firestorm
1 Naturalize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rushing River
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Darkblast
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Pyroclasm
1 Flaming Gambit

# Crucible of Worlds - I love this card, I now its greedy to want to strip mine lock someone, but it happens. Crucible gives a number of other benefits with the 5 fetchlands it allows me never to miss a land drop and makes brainstorm so much better. Not to mention the protection from wasteland colour screw, and makes the deck very strong against smokestax as they have to ramp the counters up as I can keep playing my lands like them.

# Tinker/Colossus - Its not a blue Vintage deck without it. It has won me so many games its not funny, games I never would have won otherwise.