What is the best way to play against Oath decks? It always seems to be my biggest problem. More recently I have been seeing lists with Emakrul and have no answer to it once hits the board.

My creature suit:
4 Bob
3 Trinket
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Counterspell suit:
4 Force
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce

I do run a main deck hurkyl's recall. Should that be my only out to a resolved oath? It just seem emrakul sucks because it prevents grindstone from winning the game and it also cannot be targeted once it gets oathed up.

Thanks for the help.

If I was going to just choose one which would be the better bet - stifle or spell pierce?

I am very well aware that it is metagame dependent but in my mind it seems like stifle is better against combo heavy environment while spell pierce is better against a control environment.

Which one of the two would be better against stax?

I'm used to playing stifle in urbana fish or u/b lists, but i have yet to play in a tournament where I ran spell pierce.

Thanks for the input.

cut imperial seal, isamaru, lions, chants, and seal of cleansing for jotun grunts, stifles, time walk, recall, and force of will and run 1 ofs ponder, brainstorm, and merchant scroll.  idk about force of will b/c of low blue but those blue cards are a lot better than the white ones you are running.  i used to run BW for a long time.  i top 8ed twice.  u need good draw engines though.

gl with building an optimal build.  keep us updated on new versions

so now that the SCG Chicago lists are up, it seems a huge part of the meta is gushes and workshops.  urbana crushes gush, but now it has to be tuned to combat workshops while being able to deal with tarmogoyfs.

what are everyone's thoughts?

your logic seems to make perfect sense. the Drake is a win-more card.

on the crucible debate, how important is it to run a factory or 2.  i mean the deck is already 3 colors and sometimes i have problems just getting the mana i want anyways.  a colorless producer can only lower the probability of getting the correct mana turns 1, 2, and 3.

i've been testing the Drake and he is absolutely insane.  pretty combo with bouncer: play drake, switch guys, bounce the drake.  rinse repeat.

@ Kobefan:

i definitely agree it is a metagame deck.  but the problem is, this is the only playable deck i own for the SCG.  do you or anyone else out there have any ideas how to make it competitive in a heavy shop and 'goyf environment?

how good is chalice of the void right now?  i've been debating removing it from the list...

what do you guys think about hurkyl's recall from the board.  i know its not a lasting answer but it significantly slows then down and there is the possibility of them depleting their resources to play out their board already.

but i plan to run leyline out of the board to combat stax.  welder and leyline have zero synergy.  and the problem with shaman is the lacks of mana available.  he's really good at eating the moxen, but i am assuming problems with smokestax and other lock pieces.

which do you think is better for combating stax, goblin vandal or gorilla shaman.  i've got 2 open spots in my main and id like it to be one of those two.  what do you guys think?

i like the cutpurse a lot in this deck.  i dont know how good it will be against the 9sphere decks that are on the rise.  I would assume that the 9sphere decks are going to be shop aggro, because the 9 spheres will hate out the gush decks.  if the 9 sphere decks are going to be in mass, then i think the board and possibly the main deck needs to be reworked to combat these decks well.

here's what i played.  its really close to a list posted here earlier:

4 Dark Confidant
2 Dimir Cutpurse
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Daze
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroblast
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Control Magic
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

here's the thing though, with Lorwyn there will be 9shere stax decks.  i didnt feel real good against stax when i played so i think the deck needs to be reworked to beat stax.  and with 9sphere stax i think there will be a decline in the empty gush decks.  what do you guys think?

i went undefeated this weekend in Chicago with Urbana fish.  i was 4-0-1 in swiss and beat stacks in top 8 then had to leave the tourney early, so i conceded to a friend i beat in the first round.  i lost 2 games all day.  Urbana fish is really good rite now, but with 9 sphere decks coming out once lorwyn is playable, i think the sideboard would have to be reworked to put up strong numbers versus stax.  right now i feel its a coin flip and a lot is based on who wins the die roll.  it crushes the gush decks.  if they get a fastbond down its hard to deal with, but if you can prevent that the deck just out tempos them.

definitely cut the street wraiths.  They are absolutely terrible with Dark Confidant.

also add an engineered explosives.  it is a very versatile card that kills a lot of things in the meta right now.

maybe a second bounce spell in Chain of Vapor of Rushing River.  I like the river better in this deck.

im a fan of shadow of doubt also.  this is obv a tempo oriented deck and shadow of doubt fulfills that role beautifully.

i did some testing against goblins which included pyroclasm, propagandas, and engineered plagues.  with pyroclasm wrecks you also or they still have gas in their hand when playing around it.  either way preventing you from winning because they can topdeck into gas more consistently than URbana fish.  with propaganda they sit there and build up and army of guys that you will never smash through.  all the while eating away at your life, ever so slowly but still life loss is there, and at some point they get a bunch of guys that dont attack and then become blockers to your dudes who dont have evasion.  thus you losing to overwhelming goblins that come over a few at a time.  just delaying the inevitable.  the best bet is plague but it isnt that great.  your clock just isnt fast enough usually to just out race -1/-1ed goblins.  so as some one said earlier in the thread, just lose to goblins and smash everything else.  thats my game plan for the moment.

i played unmask for a long time in my BW build over the past year.  It is tru that it just ruins ur card advantage.  It was golden against pitch long but the card disadvantage in this deck is too much especially with the lack of card draw engines.

contagion seems really good since it doesnt cost any mana as a reactive spell to flash.

dystopia is an absolute house against GAT and OATH.  Ive tested it and its amazing.  It as worst a 1 for 1 and u dont even need to target the permanent (say SSS).  Or you can keep it around for a turn or 2 and wreck their board position.  it doesnt win you the game but it def keeps u in it and prevents them from winning which is what the deck is geared to do.

in theory exalted angel seems great. its and 8 life swing per turn.  but the fact of the matter is u spend 2 turns getting it into play or need 6 mana.  in a deck like this u want to be disrupting and smashing face at the same time. setting ur self up with 2 turns for 4 extra life isnt the greatest against a lot of the aggro decks.  Avenger on the other hand seems insanely good.  it keeps attacking while keeping at least part of the opposing armies at bay and it has evasion.

u may also want some additional late game card drawing b/c u tend to run out of gas quickly.  Bob is good but you probably want at least 2 more sources of card draw

what seems better in the meta right now, Leyline of the Void or Extirpate?  I've been debating these for sometime and have played both in a UBW fish build.  Both have their strengths and weaknesses.  Leyline has a higher cc so not as good w/ Bob and not that good if not in opening hand.  At this point im thinking of bringing in the choice out of the board b/c my main deck is pretty set in stone to my likings at the moment.

P.S. thanks for the comments on the goblins match-up

what ideas are there for fighting against the goblin match-up.  i've been testing it and been getting absolutely smashed game after game.  it seem goblins just has infinite gas against my smaller creatures

what comes outof the maindeck in the GAT match-up?

congrats on the amazing finish!

Awesome report.

I agree with twault that "THIS IS NOT A FUCKING DRUG CARTEL" will be used quite frequently on the vintage scene for sometime to come.  immediate classic

nice tournament report.

when your opponent just scooped to smokestack it just shows his ignorance about the format, which in my mind makes the games a little less fun.

are you going to post the top8 decklists by chance?

against flash i didnt have nay guys out after he flashed in the hulk and got the sliver package.

extirpate was always really good because at the least id was able to rfg FOW so against most decks allowing me to attack their hands and win conditions unhindered.

i still fear my worst match-up is fish and am constantly searching for ways to improve the match-up.  everything i try looks ok on paper but then fizzles in play.  any suggestions for the board against fish?

So I've been playing Vintage for about a year now.  I don't play any of the tier 1 decks yet because I am trying to improve mys kills before justifying spending loads of cash on a deck.  I was introduced to the format my a close friend and have fallen in love with the format.  It is by far my favorite format.  I run a deck that I built and have most of the cards for.  That was the primary restriction to which deck I would be playing.  This is my second top 8 with this deck, but there have been a few changes along the way for the ever shifting meta.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Dimir Cutpurse
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki, War's Wage

1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Extirpate
3 Hide//Seek
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 mox Sapphire
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 City of Brass
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
2 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

The board was pretty worthless.  I hate some fish hate and Ichorid hate.  But the only relevant cards were 4 Honor the Fallen, 2 StP, and 1 Crypt.

I get to College of Dupage and meet up with some friends I hadn't seen in a while.  Acquire some cards for my deck and and hour after registration the tourney is underway.

Round 1: Brian with Slaver
His list didnt play drains and included mishra's workshops, ancient tombs, and like 8 artifact fatties like trikes, titans, karn, platinum, and DSC.
Game 1:  I duress and see Brainstorm, FOW, Trike, Gilded Lotus, Platinum Angel, and Chalice.  I take the BS.  I then proceed to waste his lands while riding kataki and Bob to the finish.
Game 2:  I extirpate his FOW, Seek 2 trikes, and ride mindcensor and kataki.
it was a really dull match.  neither of said much and he countered one of my spells.  I wished him luck and we moved on.
Board:  +2 StP +1 Crypt -2 Grunt -1 Jitte

2-0 1-0

Round 2: Newton with Ichorid.
I saw Newton playing my friend Peter the round before so i knew he was playing Ichorid.
Game 1:  He mulls to 3 finding a bazaar, imp, and wraith.  He goes off on turn 2 beating me with a zealot, 6 tokens, and a troll.
Game 2:  Opening hand of 2 Honor the Fallen, 2 extirpate, kataki, 2 mishra's factory.  So i mull all the way down to 4 seeing an honor the fallen, but never get the second mana source to cast it.  he rapes me again on turn 3.  it was clearly his first time playing the deck. He made the mistake of trying to attack with 2 ichorids during his upkeep after bazaaring.  After i told him he had a draw phase still he dredged into the nuts and he had 12 tokens and 1 card left in his library as he smashed my face for a million.
Board: +4 Honor the Fallen, +2 Stp, +1 Crypt -4 Duress, -3 Cabal Therapy.
We played a game three for fun.  I went waste on bazaar.  Followed by extirpate on bazaar and waste on his city of brass.  next turn i extirpated his bridges.  He conceded since it was just for fun and we took our lunch break.

0-2 1-1

Round 3: Danny w/ Slaver
Danny's a cool guy and we chatted a lot while playing and shuffling up.
Game 1:  I win the roll and lead with pear, sapphire, time walk.  Followed up by cutpurse.  He is unable to recover as seek out his DSC and ram out a Bob to increase the insane card advantage.
Game 2: I jam out Bob turn 1 as he tapped out for BS on turn 1.  He sits back and counters everything else I play but the card advantage from Bob was too much from his as I duress amd therapy away his hand, all while seeking out his win conditions.
Board: +2 Stp, +1 Crypt, -1 jitte, -2 Grunt
He was a really good sport about get beaten.  It wasnt even close but his take on the games made it fun for both of us.  After the games were over we sat and watched the match next to us.  It was ichorid vs. pitch long.  Danny joked how neither deck really interacted witht the other and was wondering why we got done before them.  Then we saw the Ichorid player mull to 2.  Getting the absolute NUTS in game 3.  He got troll and Bazaar.  bazaar's into troll and imp.  goes off on turn 3.  How insanely lucky.  he is the definition of luck sack.  i guess that deck just gets there.

2-0 2-1

Round 4: Manuel w/ Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash
Game 1:  He mulls and I duress seeing DT, Hulk, Merchant Scroll, and FOW.  I waste his lone tropical island. later i extirpate his FOW as he fails to draw into mana sources.  I ride kataki, Bob, and cutpurse all the way.
the game ends by him calling a judge to make sure i marked my lotus as a proxy on my registration sheet.  its one of those printed on a card but is actually fake.  i bought it for $10.  he concedes after trying to give me a game loss for misregistering.
Game 2:  I duress snagging a ancestral.  i tear his hand apart via duresses and therapies.  My guys jsut dont get it done in time as he brainstorms into hulk and flash.  he jams out heart sliver, winged sliver, and 2 virvulent slivers.  I stp a virvulent and get smashed by the rest.  dieing to poison counters.
Game 3:  i duress, waste, strip, like a mad man.  He is clearly frustrated at this point.  i proceed to extirpate flash, force, seek out 2 virvulents.  At one point he had 3 outs in his deck. a trop, and emerald, and a lotus to hard cast the hulk in his hand.  I seeked out the lotus and extirpated the trops leaving him with just the emerald to draw in his 25 card library to hard cast hulk to steal the game.  Luckily i drew into more dorks after 2 massacres and eeked it out.
Board: +2 stp, -2 grunt

2-1 3-1

Round 5: Peter with Bomberman
Game 1: By the end of my turn 2 he was left with 1 land on board and 1 land in hand.  he pitched 1 force of will to counter my duress, but then i extirpated it seeing his hand and ripping it apart via therapy and flashing it back w/ mishra's factory.  I ram out Bob and kataki and he tops in trinket and explosives.  he also played out chalice at 1.  he had a spell bomb on board at this point.  he makes an odd play.  He bounces my Bob and explodes for 2 killing kataki.  i sword the trinket and replay Bob and explode at zero getting a 4 for 1.  bob goes the distance.
Game 2:  another long game of trading 1 for 1 with 2 powered dorks. he gets the spellbomb salvagers combo going.  but i rip stp like a mad man to stop that shinanigans.  in top deck mode for both of us he jams out mindcensor eot.  i was holding darkblast for quite some time.  i play it.  he bounces via spellbomb.  then a series of him replaying mindcensor and me dredging takes place for 5 turns as he continually has bounce or a counterspell.  it takes us to time.  and we are unable to finish in turns.

1-0 4-1

Round 5:  Ben Carp with Oath
We ID but play 3 games for fun.  game 1 he gets out 2 angels and rapes.  game 2 i get 4 strip effect and crush.  Game 3 he draws into life from the loam.  i get a bob, a kataki, 2 cutpurse and some spirirts on board.  he gets out akroma and i seeked out razia.  we start smashing at each other.  at one point i go to seek and we discuss wut to get.  im thinking FOW b/c i have Bob out and and it doesnt put my out of akroma smashing in 2 turns anyways but he suggests blessing b/c its more relevant.  so i get blessing.  when im at 1 i reveal stp and die.  so if i wouldve got FOW i wouldve won but irrelevant.

i make top 8 and am paired against Ben.
game 1: he discard akroma after ancestral so i extirpate it.  then untap and seek his razia.  game was over quickly after that.
Game 2: he sets chalice at 1 and gets an oath on board.  i scramble to get an explosives but dont find it and die to SSS beat down.
Game 3: i open with city of brass, lotus, katkai, cutpurse, serenity, sword, sword.  i go for the turn 1 cutpurse hoping he doesnt have force.  he ends up forcing my lotus. he gets loam engine going then jams out trinisphere.  i never see a third land.  he gets strip and mishra's factory out.  so i concede.

1-2 4-2-1

i walked away with a tundra and respect from a lot of people who thought my deck was shitty. I agree it isnt that great but it fits this environment well and i had a lot of good match ups.

Props:
-TK and Peter for borrowing me cards
-Damien for putting up a good tourney
-Ben for getting 2nd
-I@n for getting top 8

Slops:
-the 2 choaders who said they were gonna drive in from madison and pick me up on the way to the tourney that canceled on me the night before the tournament

the dryads are the stone cold nuts in the deck.  They get huge my you just playing your game by drawing, searching, and countering opponents spells.  It is always a threat to an opponent becuase if they dont deal with it, eventualy it will smash through all defenses and win.

Congrats!

Nice report

if your going to run ninja you should be running some one drops.  you should also cut the lightning greaves and the shikari.  replace them with disruptive or control cards (e.g. stifle or trickbind)

with so much ichorid running around people are packing leylines in the sb.  If an opponent throws down a leyline wut the plan of action? just go with the kudzu/titan beats or should there be some bounce/removal out of the board?

i think you should run 1 less of both the bloodmoon and the magus and also cut the sreum powders.  Inplace of those you should run mox monkeys, crucibles, and REB's.

good report.  i dont know if i agree with you on that your build is better than Dread Return-Sutured Ghoul Combo.  But it seems you did well so Ill try it out in testing.