I found a few cards that do exactly that...but they all cost more than 4 mana, AND they need another PW to be already into play . Point taken.

But if we can't use any obcenely powerful card printed in the old times, it'll probably be  a long time before there's a PW card interaction strong enough to be played in type 1. The best we can hope for in the near future is a cheap PW with a useful side effect (say, like Xantid Swarm) as a sideboard card.

I think clockspinning is a card that is already doing the job, since it can add or remove any kind of counter. Of course, you need a lot of mana to power Liliana Vess to 8 Loyalty in one turn with clockspinning, but it's theoretically already possible. And I agree with your assessment about block constructed and standard, but we should probably keep the Liliana Vess combo in the back of our minds until the possible day where a card comes out that makes it viable in eternal formats.

That0neguy suggested that Dread Return was a better combo than the 8-Loyalty Liliana Vess ability. I was merely answering that casting Dread Return brought back only one creature whereas casting Lilina Vess and somehow activating her could bring back any number of them; my point was just that the effect was much better, and therefore could be worth the admitedly steeper costs. I never suggested to return Liliana with DR.

Just an idea. Dread return only brings back one creature. I was more thinking of creatures which could kill just by their CIP effect, avoiding the need for an attack phase. But I don't know of a specific creature combination that would work (Well Goblin Warchief + Goblin Sharpshooter + Skirk Prospector + 18 Goblins would work, but I was more thinking 4-6 creatures).


Well a suitably thought out Enchantress deck can have quite a few mana enhancing enchantments on its forests by turn 3-4.


Hum, let's see... for fun? Enchantress is interesting to goldfish, but currently hardly ever wins a real game. Anything that would make it win just a few games (say 15% of them) against proven Legacy decks would be a pleasure to play. I don't see any way to make it tournament worthy, but there are people on these forums far more clever than us, so who knows?

I'm thinking Garruk may make some kind of Enchantress deck viable in Legacy (gets free easily with wild growths, makes a ton of mana, can make a token if you lack a creature to enchant). Looking forward to the red PW to see if it accelerates Legacy Goblin even more.

As for Vintage, I don't see it for now given the already spoiled planeswalkers. But the PW mechanics as we currently know them allow for some pretty broken PW combos, so wait and see. Still, a way to put your entire deck in your graveyard and to activate Lilliana Vess the turn she touches the table would probably deserve some research.

Lastly, the mechanics being rather interesting, I believe PWs are here to stay and will be represented in every set in the future.

WhiteWolf:"Factorys are even better in this deck than in other Stax decks. They block, they are free attackers under Void, they give mana, they work great with Gate to Phyrexia (and CoW)"

I am convinced now that they make a good kill. Still, 4 of seems too many to me.

WhiteWolf:"Chains of Mephistopheles: It's most powerful plus is its non-artifact status I guess. Handy against those Brainstorms digging for answers. Never tested these. Kills the "Mirage Tutor/Brainstorm" play."

This one sounds like  a great idea. A cheap non-artefact lock component. I will try to get some of those in my list.

WhiteWolf:"- Defense Grid: Counterspells proved to be a great pain in the ass, especially with 'big' spells like Smokestack and Void. This could be pretty good I think. If you can slip this one through you can be sure to lay down some locks undisturbed the next turns."

I'd rather play more lock components and have some of them countered than a counter-counter artifact like this one, which seems too situational.

Sphere of Resistance seems great too, but it's an artefact. I would keep the Vampiric for Strip Mine tutoring purposes.

From Bob's last list:
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-1 Tomb of Urami
-1 Mishra's Factory
-1 Yawgmoth's Will
-1 Smokestack
-1 Wasteland

+ 3 Chains of mephistopheles
+ 1 God's Eye
+ 1 Crucible
--

I just started testing the deck and currently haven't tested any matchups extensively but I have a problem with its play against storm-combo. Since disrupting it turn 1 is a priority, I aim for Calice@1+Null Rod or something artifact-based of the kind. Once I have a Null Rod in place, getting the 4 non-artifact mana to cast braids or nether void to press my advantage is very difficult, even with Urborg in hand. Maybe I'll change my mind after actually playing the deck, but it doesn't feel agressive enough after its first turn. You get the feeling that the best that could happen to you is bazaarding your braids/nether void for a Smokestack.

Comments on specific cards:
Mishra's Factory: I don't really see why you would want to play this card, and certainly not why in four. It helps you against fish, but worsens your lock speed considerably compared to, say, Ancient Tomb, which I like a lot more.

Yawgmoth's Will: Feels wrong somehow; one time allowed me to play a forced null rod again, but usually very weak.

Again, I haven't really tested the deck yet, but I like the general idea and will test it in the following days.

Also, another idea I just had: maybe swapping the 4 Shops for 4 Ancient Tombs would allow for almost the same turn one, and a slighly better turn two.

The first sensible argument that there are cases in which Bloom is better than Gilded has been made a few posts ago: Bloom is Reshape-able for two and therefore both together can be used to augment storm and get one more mana. I don't think that is a powerful enough play to warrant including such a weak card (even Cabal Ritual is way better), but in this specific cas, Bloom IS better than Gilded Lotus. Now we just have to find a way to abuse it rather than just an example of a case in which it doesn't suck.

I agree that this card seems too slow to see play in Vintage, but the "Suspend" mechanic is in my opinion a forebearer of very good things as far as Type-1 playable "Time Spiral" cards are concerned. "Lotus Bloom" shows us an example of known very strong power (Black Lotus) balanced by a clear disadvantage (Suspend). Maybe the WOTC R&D intends to have several others cards in the same spirit (Ancestrall Recall/Suspend 3, Channel/Suspend 3, Time Walk/Suspend 4, Tinker without the artifact sac/Suspend 5,...).

Such a set would be a dream for Vintage players and really deserving of the "'Time Spiral" name.

OK, I may be reading a little too much in this preview card, but it would be nice

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I hate to say it but The video wont really be very exciting. it will basically be me sitting there getting beat down by a dsc both games with not much to do.
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Should be very interesting for people like me, who are very interested in Vintage but never play in sanctioned events because of the money investment, to see how you guys play your games, and manage to comply with all the rules without having the game last several hours. And congrats to all the Top 8'ers!