Planeswalkers in Vintage

[Spacebalzz]

As has been posted on many spoiler sites, Lorwyn will introduce a new type of card, the Planeswalker.  This, of course, raises the question, what will be their impact on Vintage.  For those unfamiliar, the two Planeswalkers that are rumored are:

Garruk Wildspeaker  -  2GG
Planeswalker - Garruk   Rare
+1: Untap two target lands.
-1: Put a 3/3 green Beast creature token into play.
-4: Creatures you control get +3/+3 and trample until end of turn.
3

Liliana Vess  -  3BB
Planeswalker - Liliana   Rare
+1 (Loyalty?): Target player discards a card.
-2 (Loyalty?): Search your library for a card, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it.
-8 (Loyalty?): Put all creature cards in all graveyards into play under your control.
5

How these cards work is as follows:

- They are legendary (can't have more than one of each planeswalker).
- They come into play with loyalty counters equal to the number in the bottom right.
- You may play only one ability of each planeswalker on each of your turns, including the turn it comes into play, by adding or removing loyalty counters.
- When you attack a player, you can assign any number of your attackers to their planeswalker(s).
- The defending player can block creatures attacking their planeswalker(s).
- Whenever a spell or ability you control would deal damage to an opponent, you may assign that damage to their planeswalker(s) instead.
- Each damage dealt to a planeswalker removes a loyalty counter from it.
- If all the loyalty counters are gone, sacrifice the planeswalker.

I figured I would start this thread now because we have 2 of 5 Planeswalkers spoiled, and, accordingly, it will extend to cover all preemptive Planeswalker discussion.  It will be especially interesting to see what the Blue, Red and White Planeswalkers are, and, also, whether this will become a regular Magic mechanic to look forward to in each set (or at least those remaining in Lorwyn.

My initial thoughts are that Liliana may be a touch on the expensive side, even though she has powerful abilities.  On the otherhand, Garruk really has an effective casting cost of 2, provided you have at least 4 mana sources (2 of which are lands).    Further, in aggro-based decks, Garruk becomes, in many games, a "win next turn" card (i.e. you can use the Overrun effect the turn after he comes into play).  Lastly, the "3/3 Beast" beast ability doesn't seem too shabby, possibly providing an additional win condition.  Could this man be viable in the U/G aggro decks (i.e. Gro, Turbo-goyf, Zoo, etc)?  Could either of these cards spurn entirely new deck archetypes? 

I'm excited to see what the TMD community thinks.

-Matt

[Vegeta2711]

Assuming this is actually accurate, as Inquest is terrible and all.

Both suck and have no place in Vintage.

[Zherbus]

We have far more broken things to do with 2GG. As for 3BB, that's a big stretch.

[zeus-online]

Can they be reanimated? Just curious.
Unless they make some planeswalkers that are far better then those i doubt they'll see play...Which actually makes me happy as i think it's a bit sad that they've made planeswalker cards.

/Zeus

[Implacable]

Can they be reanimated? Just curious.

I don't think so.  It looks like they are not creatures. 

It's certainly too bad, though, because Liliana is ridiculous.  If there's one Planeswalker to be abused, it's her.

On a different subject, Wakefield's gonna' need new pants after seeing Garruk.

[Enzo90910]

I'm thinking Garruk may make some kind of Enchantress deck viable in Legacy (gets free easily with wild growths, makes a ton of mana, can make a token if you lack a creature to enchant). Looking forward to the red PW to see if it accelerates Legacy Goblin even more.

As for Vintage, I don't see it for now given the already spoiled planeswalkers. But the PW mechanics as we currently know them allow for some pretty broken PW combos, so wait and see. Still, a way to put your entire deck in your graveyard and to activate Lilliana Vess the turn she touches the table would probably deserve some research.

Lastly, the mechanics being rather interesting, I believe PWs are here to stay and will be represented in every set in the future.

[That0neguy]

If you are going to dump your entire library into the graveyeard why wouldn't you just use dread return and narcomebas?  Why pay mana to do something when you can do it for free.  Also if you are filling your deck up with big giant creatures you are going to have tons of dead draws.

As far as the legacy enchantress deck goes - You can only use the ability once per turn so I don't think you would want to spend 4 mana to get maybe 4-5 mana.  It would only ever be decent if you are not going off by turn 3-4 which why would you be playing a combo deck that can't do that?

[Enzo90910]

If you are going to dump your entire library into the graveyeard why wouldn't you just use dread return and narcomebas?  Why pay mana to do something when you can do it for free.  Also if you are filling your deck up with big giant creatures you are going to have tons of dead draws.

Just an idea. Dread return only brings back one creature. I was more thinking of creatures which could kill just by their CIP effect, avoiding the need for an attack phase. But I don't know of a specific creature combination that would work (Well Goblin Warchief + Goblin Sharpshooter + Skirk Prospector + 18 Goblins would work, but I was more thinking 4-6 creatures).

As far as the legacy enchantress deck goes - You can only use the ability once per turn so I don't think you would want to spend 4 mana to get maybe 4-5 mana.

Well a suitably thought out Enchantress deck can have quite a few mana enhancing enchantments on its forests by turn 3-4.

It would only ever be decent if you are not going off by turn 3-4 which why would you be playing a combo deck that can't do that?

Hum, let's see... for fun? Enchantress is interesting to goldfish, but currently hardly ever wins a real game. Anything that would make it win just a few games (say 15% of them) against proven Legacy decks would be a pleasure to play. I don't see any way to make it tournament worthy, but there are people on these forums far more clever than us, so who knows?

[Harlequin]

In the FAQ they spesifically say that these Plainswalkers are -not- creatures.   So Dread Return will not be able to target them.

[Enzo90910]

In the FAQ they spesifically say that these Plainswalkers are -not- creatures.   So Dread Return will not be able to target them.

That0neguy suggested that Dread Return was a better combo than the 8-Loyalty Liliana Vess ability. I was merely answering that casting Dread Return brought back only one creature whereas casting Lilina Vess and somehow activating her could bring back any number of them; my point was just that the effect was much better, and therefore could be worth the admitedly steeper costs. I never suggested to return Liliana with DR.

[Le Pougnezu]

Well, the 8-loyalty reanimation effect requires... 8 loyalty points.
Liliana must eat up at least 3 cards from opponent's hand, i.e, you must wait 3 turns before having fun with your graveyard.

Not even mentionning that a planeswalker can take damage like players, and that damage reduce loyalty from the same amount.


Basically Liliana is 2x free vampiric tutor, sorcery speed, and methinks it's hard to abuse. If you have established control, she's a free disrupting scepter, but it doesn't seem very optimal play.
On the other side, Garruk costs only 2 mana, and gives 2 free untaps every turn. Happy Bazaaring.

[Sarah Angel]

Well, the 8-loyalty reanimation effect requires... 8 loyalty points.
Liliana must eat up at least 3 cards from opponent's hand, i.e, you must wait 3 turns before having fun with your graveyard.

Of course, but I think Enzo is assuming, rightfully so, that there will be ways to add loyalty counters to Planeswalkers other than just using their +1 ability, just like there are numerous other cards that add/remove Suspend/Time counters in the current block.

Though, that will add an additional step in Liliana's -8 ability, which makes me think it's only going to be viable in block constructed or standard.

Something like a creature that has "Sacrifice: add 3 loyalty counters to target Planeswalker", would probably do the trick, if they have one with a low enough casting cost.

[Enzo90910]

Of course, but I think Enzo is assuming, rightfully so, that there will be ways to add loyalty counters to Planeswalkers other than just using their +1 ability, just like there are numerous other cards that add/remove Suspend/Time counters in the current block.

I think clockspinning is a card that is already doing the job, since it can add or remove any kind of counter. Of course, you need a lot of mana to power Liliana Vess to 8 Loyalty in one turn with clockspinning, but it's theoretically already possible. And I agree with your assessment about block constructed and standard, but we should probably keep the Liliana Vess combo in the back of our minds until the possible day where a card comes out that makes it viable in eternal formats.

[Harlequin]

My point was, that until we see cards that spesifically "cheat" Plainswalkers into play (Show and Tell would I assume)... they are fairly terrible in vintage.  Every card in vintage that costs more than 3 mana needs to basically win you the game this turn, or have some way to easily cheat it into play (including workshop). 

So far the plainswalkers by design, seem to be powerful if you use them for many turns in a row.  Which would be useful in vintage if you could reliably get them into play on turn 1 or 2. 

[Enzo90910]

My point was, that until we see cards that spesifically "cheat" Plainswalkers into play (Show and Tell would I assume)... they are fairly terrible in vintage.  Every card in vintage that costs more than 3 mana needs to basically win you the game this turn, or have some way to easily cheat it into play (including workshop). 

I found a few cards that do exactly that...but they all cost more than 4 mana, AND they need another PW to be already into play . Point taken.

But if we can't use any obcenely powerful card printed in the old times, it'll probably be  a long time before there's a PW card interaction strong enough to be played in type 1. The best we can hope for in the near future is a cheap PW with a useful side effect (say, like Xantid Swarm) as a sideboard card.

[Tuba1060]

I'm not sure either are fast enough to make an impact on Vintage.  Lili's abilities are certainly vintage worthy, but at her price, there's better things to do than a pair of Imperial Seals (like, you know, win).  Garruk seems strong, and I think will make a big impact in standard and extended, since he does say win next turn, but I'm not sure there's a logical deck for him in an eternal format.  Green based aggro doesn't seem strong enough to justify him (excepting GAT, which just doesn't need him at that cost), and as free untappers go, he's outclassed by the urza's block free dudes.  We'll see about Walkers as a whole though, I have high hopes for Jace - my guess is he'll have either a one-sided timetwister or time walk as his "big" effect.