hey meadbert, i really like your work on the new dredge.dec.  I have a couple of questions though.  What are your thoughts on timevault as a sharuum target?  Its probably win-more, but i see it as a way better use of 4xstitcher than simply reusing bazaar.  Untapping vault untaps bazaar too, obv.  Taking just 2-3 consecutive turns with this build should win, there isnt really the need to go infinite. 

Running a full set of Undiscovered Paradise rather than fetches (which was my plan) is simply brilliant.  Self-bouncing lands go a long way to keeping ghast online.  that was the one difficulty i saw in ghast-dredge, hitting enough land drops to keep ghasts online.  The paradise/oboro configuration solves this problem nicely.

@womba, i tent to agree, that ichorid is beginning to miss his namesake dec.  Leaving out ichorid leaves behind a huge utapped resource: all of the crappy black creatures you need to dredge through.  in traditional dredge, most everything in the yard was serving a function.  Without ichorids, the imps and thugs dont do much once you hit the trolls.  I just like using as many resources as possible, leaving behind a stack of black creatures in the yard just makes me say, hey, where's my ichy?

It would be an entirely different build, but i think a version using ghast AND ichorid could be a strong contender.

If into the north is just there as a direct tutor for into the north, and no other reason, then this could be any number of better choices.  Worldly tutor gets both halves of the combo for one less mana, i would run more of those before north.  Living wish could really make alot of good options for this deck.  say a change like -4 into the north, -1 hexmage (sideboard), -1 Depths (sb), +3 Living wish, +3 Worldly tutor.

If you dont have lots of duress/counter it will be hard to protect marit lage.  The shushers and Xantid swarm should be eight duress effects imho.  Swarm is great for protecting combo, but does nothing about allowing lage to turn sideways ftw.  Remember, without trample lage can just be blocked.  If your opponent lands a bitterblossom your combo just got you a 20 turn clock.

The biggest problem in this list is that chains does nothing proactive.  You are using it entirely to 'counter' draw spells, which may or may not be there depending the matchup.  If you were to run something like Howling Mine or Anvil of Bogardan, then your chains actually do something about winning the game.  Anvil/Chains is a hard lock, and with your own confidant or squee, you can jump over your own chains.

I still dont think that the anvil/chains.dec deck is any good anymore, but it could be a fun one to try out.  It was played once upon a time, im sure you can find a list on tmd.  If you arent running chains to benefit your own deck's gameplan, its simply not worth running.  If you were to cut the chains and void and replace with bodies then you have more of a standard suicide package.

Of course the point of this thread is chains, so better to leave the chains and cut something else for lock parts.  Planar void could be anvil of bogardan.  Then replace spectors with Confi.  Then squeeze in some squees.  Like i said, i dont think such a deck would be very competitive, but at least then you have an actual proactive function for the chains.  Reactive cards belong in the sideboard.

bruizar, Do you know where I could find your list in the meadberts primer?  Its a very long thread...


The two skullclamps and the chains are the weakest part of the list.  Perhaps a good switch would be to go -2 clamp, -2 Chain of Vapor (into the board), and then +1 Narco, +1 Therapy, +1 Bridge, +1 Careful Study.  That version would be much more redundant, maybe also a fourth ghast is needed over the fourth narco.  Narco is a one shot freebee that doesnt work if you ever should topdeck it.  Ghasts pretty much just stay on the table and come back over and over.  The main advantage to running narco is that it is the first card to pitch when in hand.

I only two bridges since only one is needed for infinite zombies.  I thought the cut would allow more space for disruption.  Hence the chains main, that way there is a game one plan vs. whatever ails.

I think the black tutors are necessary as their primary function is to fetch a bazaar turn one.  Without powder something is needed to keep the engine online.  If i were to run entomb i think it would be in addition to vamp/seal.  Its nice to have 9 bazaars (4+2 tutor+3 study).

I was having kind of a goofy idea the other day, and ive been toying with this list ever since.  Fatestitcher is hot for untaping bazaars in dredge, but this use alone seems a bit too mono-funtional for the slots.  So then I started thinking hmm, what other permanents could Fatestitcher untap?  The obvious duh is Time Vault, which conveniently enough also untaps bazaar.  An thus was born this deck in dire need of improvement that i am codenaming "Vaultstitcher."

I think this deck actually already exists, ive heard rumours of such but have yet to find a list out there.

As a Dread Return target i could think of none other than Sharuum, as now you can dredge into vault and pop it back up.  Unearth stitcher and then do it again....  The other card i knew i wanted in there was Force of Will, because, well, its really good, and there are lots a bad blue cards to pitch sharuum, stitcher, careful study, and narcomeba are all highly pitchable blue cards.  This deck never has to choose between a tinker and a mystical tutor, just toss a crap card you werent going to cast anyways. Force is much more powerful at what it gets done than is Cabal Therapy, but some number of therapies need to be there.  It just seems wrong to have unused creature sacrifices by the end of the turn.

Sharuum as a returns target is already a combo with bridge, generating infinite zombies thanks to the legend rule.  The ideal line of play would be to dredge into the two Sharuums and vault, then return sharuum to create infinite tokens, ending the loop after an arbitrarily large number to return the vault, untap with a stitcher, walk into the win.  Helm of obedience becomes playable in dredge thanks to the Hegemon.  The biggest suck of Sharuum is thats its a fairly useless return target by itself, but even without a vault, sharuum can still pick up a lotus.

Bloodghast also looks like a big winner in here.  a natural replacement for ichorid, ghast doesnt require the massive investment in black that ichorid does, opening up the gate for enough U to support force.  There are only 7 black creatures in the deck, so ichorid would spend alot of time begging change on the streetcorner for something to eat.  Ghast is brutal with skullclamp, which is conveniently also Sharuum-able.  I think perhaps the clamps in here are a bit too 'danger of cool things' and perhaps should be cut, but i think they should be playtested.  Bazaar is generally uncompatible with holding up countermagic, i think that a solid CA engine is needed, as generally this deck never really wants to go into empty-hand-turbo-dredge mode.

Ghast also makes me want to try dakmor salvage, or maybe its just the fact that i have two russian ones... in any case its a land that can be dredged, allowing for returning ghasts with an empty hand.  Its a weak dredger, but it does up the total dredge count to 11, which is really  the minimum.  Thug doesnt make the cut here, even though hes a higher dredger, darkblast and salvage both do something on their own.  Ichorid needed thug for food, ghast needs salvage.  Its as simple as that.

For the remainder of the manabase, i will go with a fetch/dual base.  One basic island, for when it is relevant, and one dryad arbor, so that the fetches can become a dood if needed to cast returns or therapy.  Being able to fetch a basic swamp seems mostly non-important.  Salvage already eats up slots for a tap for black land.  Of course, two on moxen, lotus, and LED belong.  I wouldnt run more artifact accel since ghast vastly prefers lands.

Dredge engine: (10)
4   Golgari grave troll
4   Stinkweed imp
2   Darkblast

Draw: (11)
4   Bazaar of Baghdad
3   Careful study
1     Brainstorm
2   Skullclamp
1     Ancestral Recall
1   Vampiric tutor
1   Imperial Seal

Disruption: (8)
4   FoW
2   Cabal Therapy
2   Chain of Vapor

Bodies: (11)
3   Fatestitcher
3   Narcomeba
3   Bloodghast
2   Bridge from Below

Return Package: (5)
2   Dread Returns
2   Sharuum
1   Time Vault

Mana: (15)
4   Misty Rainforest
1   Verdant Catacombs
2   Underground Sea
1   Tropical Island
1   Island
1   Dryad arbor
1   Dakmor Salvage
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
1   Lion's Eye Diamond

Potential sideboard:
4  Leyline
1  Helm
3  Reverent Silence
1  Darkblast
2  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Iona, shield of Emeria
2  Angel of Despair 

The sideboard is just off the top of my head and is probably completely wrong.  The helm combo is nice for stealing the dredge mirror.  Reverent silence comes in to assist chain at fighting enemy leylines.  An extra Darkblast for relevant matches.  Hurkyl's to combat shops, angel of despair because its cool, and Iona because she is even cooler.


One thing i am thinking is that the fatestitcher/time vault interaction is an untapped powerhouse, but we still havent found the dec to use it. 

I think that i have to agree with you on ETW, it stretches things too much to play red for its effect.   The synergy with clamp is amazing busted, but its also very win-more.  Tendrils is win-now, no nonsense, as such ive changed this in my list at the start of the thread.  In fact, ive changed several things on my list to reflect some of this forum's consensus... i would be interested to hear any comments on the changes.

Fastbond was a glaring omission on the original list, and that has been fixed.  I hadn't included bond at first, then I found way too many gamestates that could explode with a fastbond.  Its potentially a dead card if the machine isnt working, but its not such a big deal, it only takes one slot and it can win the game on the spot.  Fastbond and landfall are an unholy couple.

You mention running Necropotence sideboard.  What about maindeck?  I had put in on my list at the beginning, but then cut it to keep things more consistent.  If necro can just win game two, why not do that game one as well?

The fascination is getting the maximum value out of the ghast.  Sure he's only  , but to get the most out of the card that mana should never be spent.  Its the same principle as not hardcasting force of will.  I suppose it would be possible to build a deck that ran alot of green mana accelerants and was hellbent on hardcasting force instead of simply running 20+ blue cards.  That example was a bit of a stretch; its simply that if i can have something for free i dont want to pay for it.  Drawing two cards by playing a land and paying one mana is really good.  Drawing two cards for  at sorcery speed and a card in hand is much worse than any vintage playable.  Would divination.dec get anywhere?

I havent been working on ghasts with intuition, but i know there are alot of peeps out there building that deck.  Anyone have an intuition-ghast list?  The blue version would have the advantage of running islands, the finest mana-producer of them all.  I would try 3 each of intuition, ghast, clamp, and confidant...  then 4 Bazaar, because it is a land that falls.  4 Cabal therapy, because its the best.  Once blue is in the deck, i feel like i should be able to use force.  That means running a bunch of blue cards.  Fate stitcher could be interesting here.  Stitcher makes Vault playable because this deck only needs one or maximum two time walks to win, no need to go infinite.  Stitcher is also a guilt-free pitch card, and that makes me smile.  So that's already 28 cards, assuming the manditory restricteds: Ancestral, Walk, Brainstorm, Ponder, Tutors, yadda-yadda, 7-8 fetch manabase, and a huge furry monster, thats a stack of sixty. 

Stitcher in yard+vault ftw??????

i can see a pair of welders being good in something like this, going a bit more down the SCV route, but with the mighty plansewalker.  Welder in a way adds to your duress package, as it is usually hastily countered if possible.  I could see them working well out of the sideboard.  Game two anyone running darkblast or whatever should be boarding them out, so the welders become a must-counter.

Obviously, if you were to go the welder route, Memory Jar looks alot more attractive.  Personally i almost never run tinker without jar.  So many times i am holding tinker, but i really wish it were a draw spell.  Jar bridges the gap nicely.

Wow, thanks everyone.  So many good suggestions here, I am working on processing them all.

Zombie infestation is a really cute idea, and much less risky than negator.  I will try to put together an infestation list myself and see what i can come up with.  I have also tried cutting my original list back to monoblack, which does leave a gaping hole in the artifact/enchantment removal category.  hopefully this disadvantage would be made up for by the increased speed and stability of running monocolor, but in the end i think some splash is needed to beat the meta.  gate to phyrexia becomes mandatory, and its just so slow at what it does compared to red and green (and even white) options.

I also hadnt thought of smallpox as a discard outlet.  The symmetry is a bit worrying, but its nice to have the extra edicts.  Gatekeeper is the natural swap out for smallpox, the only problem being a dearth of critters for the various sac outlets.  Smallpox feels very legacy to me, however anything that says "sinkhole/edict/discard/zap" for two mana deserves a second look.

One thing we should take into consideration is beating iona oath.  All the black removal in the world wont stop iona on black.  as this is likely the new oath deck to beat, having a gameplan vs iona is tricky.  A fine monoblack answer is dystopia.  If it hits before iona, the clock cant survive.  running three Dystopia sideboard along with the sacraments already there should be enough to ruin oath's plan.  Dystopia has the advantage in the matchup of attacking both the oath and the target... only problem is its no solution after the angel hits the table.


By all means, im not trying to hog the thread, All along i hoped to see different decklists for comparison.  I am not saying my build is 'the thing.'  In fact im fairly certain someone else will create a better version that none of us even thought of.


I havent tried with ordeal, but to me it seems like getting just to three with gravestorm isnt something that will just happen every time.  Turn one the best that can reasonably be hoped for is fetch into ritual for an ordeal @2.  Once this deck gets all of its gears working and starts sending tons of stuff to the yard, getting off an ordeal @7-9 seems really win more.  At that point cant you just win via massive CA and tendrils?

The reason im an advocate of sacrament is that a cap needs to hit fast in order to do its job.  You want to hit before the oath hits, before the tinker hits, before they find their vault.  waiting to gain value out of ordeal misses that tiny window.


I am all about consultation in here.  I find that a good deal of the time i just want to get either a clamp, ghast, or confidant.  Consultation smooths out alot of hands missing one piece of the engine.  Someone else suggested i cut it for imperial seal, but i hate that card on principle.  the whole "directly worse than vampiric" thing.


Ive been trying a single crucible.  Ive found that usually there is no time to play it, but when it actually comes down its a bomb.  I could see one in the main as a tutor target.  Late game, if you get there, ripping crucible can be a big tideturner.  But should i be running something designed for the endgame?

Salvage titan and Greater Gargadon are your best friends if you want to reach a high gravestorm.  That said, i think that bitter ordeal is just outclassed by Sacrament atm.  Sacrament gives you what you want fast, with no goofy combo other than swamp/ritual.  Ordeal can potentially hit more cards for the same mana, but only after finding a way to bin alot of permanents.  First turn cap >>> third turn combo cap.

That is exactly true.  Bazaar only works here if there is already a bob or clamp online.  Otherwise its just the bad kind of card disadvantage.  There just arent enough things to bin.   Usually i find myself activating bazaar and thinking "wtf am i going to discard."  Bob is an all-star in here.  Its really hot to use clamp to "ancestral" off bob.  Still, bazaar has its moments.  Without bazaar there is no way to get the first ghast for free, so i really cant cut it.
-1 Bazaar, +1 Confidant


Bitterblossom is something i had been considering as a sideboard card.  Its just lightyears slower than negator, and cutting negators means clamp number two is always a dead card.  however, the usefulness in the stax matchup is really important.  But i suppose there is room in the board if i remove two other anti-stax cards.  As for the maindeck, i am already running etw, which mostly fills the same niche, but has the advantage of winning sooner rather than later.


Yes, the lack of a strip package is glaring.  I simply reached a point where the deck was already full and i hadnt worked in the strips.  A full set would certainly be too much.  the two non-black moxen are annoying enough when I just need another black.  Running five more colorless manasources seems dangerous.  Three strips is doable, but im not sure where they could fit.

As for the fetchlands, I agree, the number should really be six.  So or the moment i will try your changes on the manabase.  Any ideas what to cut for strip/waste?  
(-1 Taiga, -1 Swamp, +2 Bloodstained Mire)

@Darkensight:  The mana crypt is an mvp in here, i wouldnt cut it for a fetch.  Crypt helps alot with getting clamp going, it drops t1 negator or confidant, and helps to cast win/etw.  This deck would just be slower without crypt.

Thanks for the input... keep the suggestions rolling.   

@BruizarAs i was typing this lengthy reply to Embermage, Bruizar gave the list a brutal rewrite.  too tired of typing to go and reply to those points.  next time.

Really interesting how 3 of the top eight played 61 cards, including the top two.  I really wonder if the 60 max rule needs to be questioned more.  moving up to 63 or even 65 cards could open alot of design space in cramped archetypes.

Look at it like this:  If you take a 60 card, well built, highly redundant deck, one which can already kill well enough, then add Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's will, and Black Lotus to the stack, its now a 'better' deck. 

Correct, there are almost no four-offs.  Optimized i think many of the threes could be fours, but then one of the threes must go to make space.  This is a work in progress, and first i want to try out a number of different options.  By basing a deck on 3's instead of fours i can fit more different cards in, thats why.

also, as for no thoughtseize... well i guess that 4 duress could be 4 thoughtsieze no problem, as life is an underused resource here.  I have my seizes in another deck atm, so i just stuck with duress in the slot.  Thoughtseize is mostly superior here, so i wil probably make that change.

So I wanted to start a thread to talk about the new suicide build.  Lord shaper already has a thread discussing a similar deck, but the direction i want to take is substantially different, cutting the dark depths combo for a massive CA engine.  Ive been working on my tech, and i wanted to get some input on this new list.  There are lots of ways to take zendi-sui, its a bit difficult to find the right direction without the new metagame.  Im sure there are others of you working on similar beasts, what card choices are you using?

Of all of the new potential bombs available in Zendikar, it seems like suicide got a good deal.   So many new playables fit in this archetype, and so its a bit difficult to narrow down the new deck.  I have been working on this problem as sui has always been one of my favorite archetypes.  So after a bit of pen and paper building, i put together this deck and goldfished it a bit.  So many busted plays, and a really fast clock.  The big players:

Sadistic Sacrament:  This is simply a huge kick in the balls.  Against so many decks in the format, resolving one of these is just game.  Remove three oath targets, remove inkwell/tezzeret, remove 3 Dred Returns targets.... its fairly obvious what this card is for, preemptively neutering an entire stack, potentially turn one.

Gatekeeper of Malakir:  Its a bear and its an edict.  Sounds like everything suicide wants.  Comparable to dark confidant, this guy kicked will cantrip immediately by wasting whatever ails you.  Bob on the other hand needs to survive a passed turn before he pays back the card he cost.  In the long run, bob will slowly build massive advantage, but that involves keeping a x/1 on the table for multiple upkeeps.  Kill spells wont stop the gatekeeper from showing a blocker the door.  Im not trying to say that Gatekeeper is a better card, and in fact bob is still an auto-include.  Its simply that now there are two card parity/advantage bears in the suicide family.

Bloodghast:  The potential for abuse of this guy is huge.  Free stuff is amazing.  As a bear this guy is kind of a dork, but the power lies in seeing ghast hit the table every time a land hits.  Ghast ensures that there will always be a dood on the table to sacrifice.  This synergy allows playing multiple effects requiring a sacrifice.  Flashback Therapy is always good, and this is certainly the best choice in the duress family for this build.  Culling the weak is a card i want to try out here as well in the second ritual slot.  Culling seems more synergistic with the creature heavy strategy than cabal ritual, as having a crappy bear is much easier to achieve than having threshold.

Skullclamp:  Not a new card, but an oldie that deserves a closer look in this new context.  Its a vintage-only card, and they still let us play four.  Is it time to finally break clamp in type one?  If i want to run all of these x/1 doods, clamp seems a natural draw engine.  Gatekeeper just sitting there doing nothing?  sac'm.  Confidant drawing to slow?  sac'm.  Topdecked a fetch?  play it, returning and clamping ghast, crack fetch for dryad arbor, return ghast, clamp arbor and ghast  FTW.

In addition to the new zendi bears, i needed a clock.  Negator is still the champ in black, and until they print a better Juzam, why not just run black's best beater?  Negator has the only body in this build that can take multiple clamps, and its helpful that he also has Trample, so when clamps arent drawing they are at least doing some damage.  Just in case you've gotten this far and still haven't realized the best part.... well please, please bolt my doubly clamped Negator

I started with this on monoblack, but then realized how many things black just cant do, so ive added dual splashes of green and red for general blowing stuff up purposes.  A single Pernicious Deed complements the Sacraments by catching win cons that have already escaped the library.  Mox Monkeys fill the mox-hating void left by dropping rod in favor of skullclamp.  Empty the warrens is of course a bomb.   At first i had cut tendrils, but soon found that very often i just wanted to tutor up something to use the storm.  Warrens has alot of synergy here, as it is possible to chain clamping goblins into more mana and more cards.  once killing the goldfish I drew most of the deck on the third turn after an etw with clamp on the table.

So now here is what i have together atm, the sideboard is just a rough draft, half ichorid hate, and half artifact/enchantment hate seems a good starting point:

Disruption: (12)
3   Sadistic Sacrament
4    Thoughtsieze
3   Cabal Therapy
1   Darkblast
1   Pernicious Deed

Creatures: (8)
4   Bloodghast
3   Phyrexian Negator <<<i might personally still run it, but its not the popular consensus
3   Gatekeeper of Malakir
2   Gorilla Shaman    <<<cutting red
1   Dryad arbor

Draw: (10)
3   Skullclamp
4   Confidant
3   Bazaar

Stupid Broken: (6)
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Empty the Warrens   <<<this is a very good reason to run red, but its not a good enough reason
1     Tendrils of Agony
1      Fastbond
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Vampiric Tutor

Mana Accel: (11)
4   Dark ritual
3   Culling the Weak
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mana Crypt

Mana-Lands: (13)
4   Verdant Catacombs
2   Bloodstained Mire
2   Badlands
2   Bayou
1   Taiga
3   Swamp
1     Stripmine
1     Wasteland


Sideboard:
4     Bitterblossom
4     Null Rod
4     Duress
3     Ravenous Trap

This deck is really an aggro-combo-control deck, with most every card serving multiple functions.  The synergies are numerous.  The question remains can this compete in the post zendi meta?  I will give it a try anyways.  One thing i am fairly certain of is that Sui is a stronger archetype than it was a month ago.

Edit: Changed 4 duress to thoughtsieze.

Edit:  Changed the list around to reflect more of the thread's consensus.  Silly me, i was missing Fastbond at first.

What about our long forgotten culling the weak?  This could get to be a real powerhouse in a "full of sacable creatures deck"  it seems like its more easily abuasable here than cabal rit, ie more likely to have an extra bear than to have threshhold.

Culling the weak also Really makes bloodghast look good.  Which actually is my second try to put sacrement with ghast.  Just for a counter example here is my brainstorm on the subject:

Engine: (14)
4     Confidant
4     Bloodghast
3     Skullclamp
3     Bazaar

Disruption: (12)
4     Thoughtsieze
3     Cabal Therapy
1     Darkblast
4     ???

Why we play this game: (5)
1   Yawgmoths Will
1    Demonic tutor
1    Vampiric tutor
1    Demonic consultation
1    Necropotence

Win cons: (7)
4    Sadistic Sacrement
3    Pyrexian Negator

Catch-all
1   Pernicious Deed

Acceleration: (14)
4     Dark Ritual
3     Culling the weak
2     Cabal Ritual
1     Black Lotus
1     Mox Jet
1     Mox Emerald
1     Lotus petal
1     Mana Crypt

Land: (11)
4     Verdant Catacombs
1     Dryad arbor
2     Bayou
1     Dakmor salvage
3     Swamps

Sideboard:
4   Leyline of the Void
2   Yxlid Jailer
2   Oxidize
2   Krosan Grip
1   Forest
1   Pernicious Deed
1   Darkblast
2   Gatekeeper of Malakir

I like negator along with the clamps, as running multiple clamps need a thick body to plug into.  This slot could be tarmogoyf, but really the point is to have a huge stick that just swings in the face of yard hate, and goyf just folds in the face of yard hate.  The drawback on negator is usually laughable if he is clamped.  It feels like a more efficient use of clamp to have a thick trampling body, so that the clamp actually gets to do damage.  goyf also doesnt have trample, and anyway green is just a splash.

The green splash is there mostly for sideboard options:  efficient methods of removing troubling permanents.  That and the busted verdant catcombs/dryad arbor combo, which is admitedly not quite as dramatic as the hexmage/dd combo, which i have left out in favor of the massive CA from clamp.  

Anyways, thats just a list off the top of my head.  ive yet to get this deck together, but im working on getting the pieces together.  I already have the set of sacrements though, they are still super-cheap.


Edit:  It seems that i made a blunder hastily sketching out a deck, and included both 3 skullclamp and 4 nullrod.  Obviously these two are incompatible.  atm, i cant think of anything to replace the rods, so i will leave the slot open.  Gatekeeper is my first thought, but maybe there is something much better for the space.  Removal of some kind needs to be there in any case, but thats all to the meta.

Most of the top eight decklists that i see out there do not, in fact side in gaea's blessing.  in fact i would say a more accurate comment is "almost no one sides in gaea's blessing vs. painter." 

if you want to play cap.dec its now become sacrament.dec.  if you want to play mill.dec, its painter.  with leyline in painter you can get the exile effect without jumping through so many hoops.  Leyline+Helm of Obedience exiles the library in one shot for a grand total of nine mana (assuming you didnt get leyline for free).

I played a cap/digger control deck before.  it was alot of fun in 1996, but in the intervening years alot of cards have entered the pool, rendering certain strategies completely outdated.  I would suggest doing some research on actual top eight decklists to see the sort of stuff being played now, then start this idea over from scratch.

Goblins with black for earwig squad.   I think thats the way to go in the modern game.  So many decks have have little opportunity to win after getting capped, and unlike sadistic sacrement, squad also signifigantly enhances the board position.   The days of any kind of vanilla beatdown deck are waning.  If you have a dood in your deck that only deals damage, and its not named tarmogoyf, it probably shouldnt be there.

I dont really know the deck, but i think if i were to build goblins right now i would start with four each lackey, mogg fanatic, gob vandal, and squad... then build out from there.

Illumination?  what?  i had to look that one up, as no one has ever played it.  You should check out this little card called annul if you want to do that.  But actually i would probably not run annul over Spell Pierce, which is what everyonr should new be running (or at least in a month or so when its legal.)  The only use i can think of for illumination is in a mirror universe/Test of endurance combo deck, but that really wouldnt be very competitive.

There is nothing wrong with the smash everything idea, but it has to be balanced with solid meaningful threats.  Goyf is there, but he really needs friends that actually do something.  Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Qasali Pridemage, Gorilla Shaman, Viashino Heretic are all the sort of cards that reinforce a blow up everything game plan with legs that turn sideways to deal damage.

Titanias song is really bad.  There are better ways to kill moxen and better ways to make your artifacts into an army.  Null rod comes to mind.

If you play hide/seek, you really must stay only in those 3 colors imo, and no mana drain doesnt fit the mana curve at all.

This deck looks like its trying to be too many things at the same time.  Draw a bunch of cards... so that you can weld in a trike?  The bloodghast engine, imo is better suited to feuling a stream of cheap efficient critters.  Of course we have yet to see the optimal build in the meta, or even if ghast will be enough to finally push skullclamp out of the closet.

I think survival is not the engine for this deck.  Bazaar is where its at.

I agree with the comment about demonic consulation.  I would run it in the slot of imperial seal, instant cantrip>sorcery card-disadvantage.  it gets the marit lage combo piece thats missing, fetches sacrement... Imperial seal is better when it has a huge menu of busted singletons to choose from, which is just not the case here.

I am curious in your testing, how often did you pull off a will into a kicked sacrement?  15 cards is the nuts against just about everything.  It seems like that would be enough of a combo kill that the tendrils is just gravy, although i hate to see that card go.

Have you thought about trying bloodghast/clamp in a build like this?  Clamp is a draw engine with every dood in this deck.  hell, even sac confidant to get the cards now instead of wating two upkeeps.  cycle extra hexmages, and stuff.   just a thought, although im not sure what i would cut to squeeze in clamp, i feel this could benefit from more draw.

thanks zendikar, for bringing back monoblack

so that settles it, i will get myeslf a booster box of zendikar, the first such purchase ive made since alliances.  a shame i sold off the extra forces in the nineties.....

First of all, there is nothing on the original list that cant be played in legacy... so why try to call this deck vintage?  Secondly, your list is really not going to get anywhere vs. "real" vintage decks.  If you want to play unpowered, you need to be playing power hate.  Thats the sad truth.  the first thing you need are four null rods, after that some number of chalice, gorilla shaman, or pithing needle.

Counterspell is really lackluster in vintage, its so far behind manadrain its not even funny.  i would cut them for forces, but thats $$$.  Even without the forces, something like negate, spellsnare, or the new zendikar counter are all superior.  Negate cant counter doods, but you already have lots of burn to deal with them.   Counterspell is too slow in a two color deck, and what you need is speed, since you will absolutely need to counter something on the first two turns.

Shock is really bad, and i really dont understand why i always see that in budget lists here.  first rule of vintage: never play a second-rate four-off.  Fire and ice, as another already suggested, is a solid alternative, since it can 2-for-1 and cycle in a pinch.

of course all of this is not really important if you are in a small meta made up of legacy decks with a sol ring and demonic tutor.

ok, so i am itching to get this running on my mac.  ive been cut out of the online loop far too long as a non-wondows user.  My pretty powerbook is non-intel, and i really dont want some jank installed to simulate running windows xp on a 80486. 

Has anyone else compiled and sucessfully run this on a mac?  Will it work on non-intel machines?  i suppose if all goes well i will soon test this out for myself, still need to dl and install Qt....

looks like fun

But wait, everyone is saying that the mill deck just isnt there yet... What about grindstone, brainfreeze, helm of obedience, oona, and before her laquitus?  All of these cards are or were win conditions run in playable vintage decks.  Perhaps none of these decks are currently top tier, but it wasnt so long ago that tyrant into brainfreeze was something to be feared.  Dragon has fallen by the wayside, but its still a potent and degenerate combo that could rear its head again.  And as for grindstone, painter is still somewhere around tier 1.7.

I keep hearing stuff like "mill strategies just arent there yet."  Games have been won by attrition for a long time.  Its just that in vintage terms the mill has to be all or nothing.  yeah that new crab dood looks nifty in a draft pack, but has no prayer of a one shot library kill.

As for the other guy, no matter how hard they try, wizards just cant seem to bust lifegain.  even if there was a one white instant that said "gain 10 life" it would be barely playable.  This cow will pwn a draft.  please dont waste your time trying to build a gladeheart combo deck.  help us brainstorm the hexmage deck!!!!!!

I disagree about sadistic sacrement.  This new card is Faster and more card efficient than any existing cap effect.  Three is the key number of cards to hit in many vintage matchups.  vault/tezz/inkwell, dragon/dragon/karrthus, 3x tendrils.  The number of game ending pulls from a cap are enough that, as you mmention, cap and earwig squad see play.  Sacrament has half the cc and hits the same as cap.  Earwig squad is theoretically more value, since for three mana you get a huge body at value, but has the problem that you must run a goblin/rogue deck, which keeps squad on the fringe of the meta.  Extract is faster, and can zap tutor targets/counter topdeck tutors, but no good if you need to hit a 3x wincon.  Bitter ordeal is a fun card, but like squad requires building a marginal deck to support the gravestorm.

Our new cap means swamp, ritual, cap is a threat that essentially ends the game vs many current oath builds before the game even starts.  No need to find some combo to get value, or in the case of cap fast enough mana to play a 6 cc sorcery early enough to matter.  I think that cap effects are starting to push into a certain minimum mass.  sacrement is just the fastest, dirtiest, and simplest kick in the balls ever printed in the 'cap' family.  People will play this, and if one isnt ready to beat caps, one must be ready to lose to them.

I think this cards greatest vintage impact will be trading for multiple fetchlands when you crack it in a draft pack.

This is a really awesome card.  Next season's standard will be defined by this snake.   maybe there will be an uber broken landfall.dec that can make the bridge to vintage.  let the standard players figure out how to break this guy... because they surely will.

I suppose that if white can have force spike nowadays, blue needs to have a better forcespike to maintain its position of superiority.

So this new card is essentially something between spike and mana leak, with a twist of negate.  Interesting how counterspell had to leave the cannon to open up design space in counters, and now they keep filling that design space with counters more playable than counterspell.

I like this card alot, and i will certainly get a set, probably the strongest common spoiled so far.  that along with 20 new fetches means some heavy zendikar drafting is needed.

What about skullclamp in here.  it seems like a way better way to sacrifice doods than gargadon.  constantly building card advantage rather than throwing it all away for a beatstick.

imagine something like play fetch, ghast returns, clamp it, crack fetch, clamp ghast again.  could be sick, but then you need a drastic redesign to use it all with ordeal.dec.

I think you should go to four null rod, or at least put the fourth in the sideboard.  In the matches where you need it the most, there is no such thing as too many.  Vs. many archetypes out there rod is a virtual win-con, much like vault, which cant actually win the game, but gives you the time to get there.  Drawing multiple null rods is not over redundant.  Rod is the first thing to get countered/blown-up.  Having another in hand or multiples on the table just means that maybe one sticks long enough for tarmogoyf to turn sideways.

Life from the loam could make a good fit in here, with 6 fetch and 5 strip you are in a good position to take advantage of it.  it is a bit slow, but if the game goes into extra innings the card advantage and striplock can seal the deal.

Vexing shusher is something you might want to try out.  it seems like a good sideboard material for when you need extra oomph in the counter war.

good luck in bant

I think something neat to test in this is mana tithe.   a set of maindeck blasts seems excessive without painter, some could be in the board.  Manatithe is a nice way to sort of timewalk to turn two, and later can nab a big eot tapout for some draw bomb.  Of course once they know you are packing heat, the opponent might try to play around tithes that arent even there.  Probably suboptimal.  here is hoping that zendikar gives us white countermagic thats any good.

Another direction i could see is running black in place of green for duress, tutors, darkblast, and hide/seek. 

Canonist would be good here.  It shuts down  combo, its an artifact so plays nice with welder, and its a wincondition.  not bad for W1.

timevault is the new mindslaver.  the two in the same deck just feels win-more to me.

burning inquiry?  just some ideas, this looks like a cool deck, and actually seems like something that could evolve into a new archetype.