Zendikar Suicide

[jaeppel]

So I wanted to start a thread to talk about the new suicide build.  Lord shaper already has a thread discussing a similar deck, but the direction i want to take is substantially different, cutting the dark depths combo for a massive CA engine.  Ive been working on my tech, and i wanted to get some input on this new list.  There are lots of ways to take zendi-sui, its a bit difficult to find the right direction without the new metagame.  Im sure there are others of you working on similar beasts, what card choices are you using?

Of all of the new potential bombs available in Zendikar, it seems like suicide got a good deal.   So many new playables fit in this archetype, and so its a bit difficult to narrow down the new deck.  I have been working on this problem as sui has always been one of my favorite archetypes.  So after a bit of pen and paper building, i put together this deck and goldfished it a bit.  So many busted plays, and a really fast clock.  The big players:

Sadistic Sacrament:  This is simply a huge kick in the balls.  Against so many decks in the format, resolving one of these is just game.  Remove three oath targets, remove inkwell/tezzeret, remove 3 Dred Returns targets.... its fairly obvious what this card is for, preemptively neutering an entire stack, potentially turn one.

Gatekeeper of Malakir:  Its a bear and its an edict.  Sounds like everything suicide wants.  Comparable to dark confidant, this guy kicked will cantrip immediately by wasting whatever ails you.  Bob on the other hand needs to survive a passed turn before he pays back the card he cost.  In the long run, bob will slowly build massive advantage, but that involves keeping a x/1 on the table for multiple upkeeps.  Kill spells wont stop the gatekeeper from showing a blocker the door.  Im not trying to say that Gatekeeper is a better card, and in fact bob is still an auto-include.  Its simply that now there are two card parity/advantage bears in the suicide family.

Bloodghast:  The potential for abuse of this guy is huge.  Free stuff is amazing.  As a bear this guy is kind of a dork, but the power lies in seeing ghast hit the table every time a land hits.  Ghast ensures that there will always be a dood on the table to sacrifice.  This synergy allows playing multiple effects requiring a sacrifice.  Flashback Therapy is always good, and this is certainly the best choice in the duress family for this build.  Culling the weak is a card i want to try out here as well in the second ritual slot.  Culling seems more synergistic with the creature heavy strategy than cabal ritual, as having a crappy bear is much easier to achieve than having threshold.

Skullclamp:  Not a new card, but an oldie that deserves a closer look in this new context.  Its a vintage-only card, and they still let us play four.  Is it time to finally break clamp in type one?  If i want to run all of these x/1 doods, clamp seems a natural draw engine.  Gatekeeper just sitting there doing nothing?  sac'm.  Confidant drawing to slow?  sac'm.  Topdecked a fetch?  play it, returning and clamping ghast, crack fetch for dryad arbor, return ghast, clamp arbor and ghast  FTW.

In addition to the new zendi bears, i needed a clock.  Negator is still the champ in black, and until they print a better Juzam, why not just run black's best beater?  Negator has the only body in this build that can take multiple clamps, and its helpful that he also has Trample, so when clamps arent drawing they are at least doing some damage.  Just in case you've gotten this far and still haven't realized the best part.... well please, please bolt my doubly clamped Negator

I started with this on monoblack, but then realized how many things black just cant do, so ive added dual splashes of green and red for general blowing stuff up purposes.  A single Pernicious Deed complements the Sacraments by catching win cons that have already escaped the library.  Mox Monkeys fill the mox-hating void left by dropping rod in favor of skullclamp.  Empty the warrens is of course a bomb.   At first i had cut tendrils, but soon found that very often i just wanted to tutor up something to use the storm.  Warrens has alot of synergy here, as it is possible to chain clamping goblins into more mana and more cards.  once killing the goldfish I drew most of the deck on the third turn after an etw with clamp on the table.

So now here is what i have together atm, the sideboard is just a rough draft, half ichorid hate, and half artifact/enchantment hate seems a good starting point:

Disruption: (12)
3   Sadistic Sacrament
4    Thoughtsieze
3   Cabal Therapy
1   Darkblast
1   Pernicious Deed

Creatures: (8)
4   Bloodghast
3   Phyrexian Negator <<<i might personally still run it, but its not the popular consensus
3   Gatekeeper of Malakir
2   Gorilla Shaman    <<<cutting red
1   Dryad arbor

Draw: (10)
3   Skullclamp
4   Confidant
3   Bazaar

Stupid Broken: (6)
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Empty the Warrens   <<<this is a very good reason to run red, but its not a good enough reason
1     Tendrils of Agony
1      Fastbond
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Vampiric Tutor

Mana Accel: (11)
4   Dark ritual
3   Culling the Weak
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mana Crypt

Mana-Lands: (13)
4   Verdant Catacombs
2   Bloodstained Mire
2   Badlands
2   Bayou
1   Taiga
3   Swamp
1     Stripmine
1     Wasteland


Sideboard:
4     Bitterblossom
4     Null Rod
4     Duress
3     Ravenous Trap

This deck is really an aggro-combo-control deck, with most every card serving multiple functions.  The synergies are numerous.  The question remains can this compete in the post zendi meta?  I will give it a try anyways.  One thing i am fairly certain of is that Sui is a stronger archetype than it was a month ago.

Edit: Changed 4 duress to thoughtsieze.

Edit:  Changed the list around to reflect more of the thread's consensus.  Silly me, i was missing Fastbond at first.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I can see almost no four-ofs in this deck. Why this? Don't you think some cards are just better than others? If so, i would max out on these.
And, why no thoughtseize? do you lose that many life with this deck? Otherwise, an interesting way to go with the deck, too.

[jaeppel]

I can see almost no four-ofs in this deck. Why this? Don't you think some cards are just better than others? If so, i would max out on these.
And, why no thoughtseize? do you lose that many life with this deck? Otherwise, an interesting way to go with the deck, too.

Correct, there are almost no four-offs.  Optimized i think many of the threes could be fours, but then one of the threes must go to make space.  This is a work in progress, and first i want to try out a number of different options.  By basing a deck on 3's instead of fours i can fit more different cards in, thats why.

also, as for no thoughtseize... well i guess that 4 duress could be 4 thoughtsieze no problem, as life is an underused resource here.  I have my seizes in another deck atm, so i just stuck with duress in the slot.  Thoughtseize is mostly superior here, so i wil probably make that change.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Nice. There's a lot of testing work to be done here, and I'm very happy that you are willing to take it on.

Bazaar is interesting enough to be worth testing, but I think it's too gready. You need the game to be going your way before bazaar gets turned on.

To further building on synergies, I would choose bitterblossom as the main beater over negator. It is great versus stax, defends well, is unaffected by burn..

If you run BB, then possibly even 1-2 gate to phyrexia main, rather than deed, to keep aiming at the long game and improve consistency (a less disruptable manabase and lesser dependancy on sacrament).

If you run thoughtseize, keep running 2-3 culling the weak and particularly if you are interested in the bitterblossom option in addition to confidant, having 2-3 tendrils main is worth consideration. Tendrils for as little as 6-8 is good against aggro and turns on bloodghast against everything (having the possibility of dealing 20 with yawgwin is of course an asset too).

I'd test with 3 gorillas, just to draw it often enough. You could cut one thoughtseize from the initial list without touching any of the engines in the deck.

Cutting wastes is interesting, but since you are replacing rods with apes, I fail to see the logic behind it. Including 4-5 wastes would let you up the land-count slightly for the vamps.

I think the list wants more fetches. Even if you keep it Brg, it seems possible to shave off the taiga and possibly a swamp for 2 bloodstained mire (or any black fetch for that matter). Having 6 fetches would reduce the utility in securing both green and red mana with a single fetch.

Since you don't run rod, I think the list will end up wanting atleast 1 divining top, but it doesn't necessarily deserve a spot while you are doing initial selections (manipulating your draws too much might complicate the assessment of individual cards).

Try keeping in mind the possibility of therapying yourself, if you open double bloodghast and clamp. It may very well become one of those possible plays that are never truly competitive, but in this case...

[Darkenslight]

I'd consider dropping the crypt for either a basic Forest or a Bloodstained Mire.  As it is, you're running just 15 permanent sources of mana, of which 4 WILL get shot/shut offf.  That's not good.  Other than that it seems quite strong.

[mmcgeach]

i put together a build that has good game against Tezz: i swamped out clamp, mox monkey, and negator for wastelands, null rods, and life from the loam.  The bazaar + loam + bloodghast engine is pretty good.  I'm sort of afraid to use negator as a finisher, so, (and I'm sort of ashamed to admit it, but) I tried Vampire Noctournus as a finisher - it's not that bad w/all the vampires.

[tito del monte]

If you're dropping Null Rod to play clamp, and running the black tutor suite there's probably no good reason not to run Time Vault/Key. I know it's becoming ubiquitous, but there you go..

Also - is there room in the manabase for an Undiscovered Paradise? Nets your three colours, and guarantees triggering Bloodghast.

Gradually getting all the new black goodies together to give this or something similar a try - I really hope they can give a classic deck a chance to compete.

[BruiZar]

IMO you run a really fragile mana base. One of the strengths is that you can be immune to wasteland with sui. You waste the opportunity for resilience in exchange for cards that will not matter. Gorilla Shaman does nothing for you that Null Rod doesn't already do. Running Empty the Warrens is does nothing to win the game right now. You are not a storm deck and even if you want to play it as such, I would include tendrils over Empty the Warrens because:

1) You diversify threats, if you run alot of creatures + tokens you can be more easily hated out.
2) It cuts the need for a red mana source, thus making the deck more resilient against Wastes
3) You can build lethal storm this turn.
4) You can get life in tight situations

That said, I wouldn't play tendrils either. Here are some general suggestions. Take from it what you think is useful

Disruption: (12)
3 4  Sadistic Sacrament
4   Thoughtsieze
3   Cabal Therapy
1   Darkblast
1   Pernicious Deed

Creatures: (12)
3   Bloodghast
3   Phyrexian Negator Losing permanents sucks.
+3 Tarmogoyf This one is 1 mana cheaper too
3   Gatekeeper of Malakir
2   Gorilla Shaman No red, Everything Shaman does, null rod does better, plus null rod doesn't activate opponents Welders.
1   Dryad arbor

Draw: (9)
3   Skullclamp
3   Confidant
3   Bazaar You mention a lot of synergies, I don't see them to be honest. Cut bazaar because you need to be disruptive, not spending your time throwing business spells in the yard.
+4 Null Rod

Stupid Broken: (5)
1   Yawgmoth's Will I wouldn't play it in this deck. Its 3 mana you can't pay for if you don't have lotus. What are you gonna recurr? Thoughtseizes and Duresses? You're better playing Cabal Therapies in that case.
1   Empty the Warrens
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Demonic Consultation Too many one offs and non-four offs
1   Vampiric Tutor
+1 Channel Not sure about this. Allows you to play Infinite Skull Clamps, and get Kicker out of your Sadistic Sacrament. Kicker out of Sadistic Sacrament is useful because now its not just great against combo, but against every other deck. Most aggro decks run 12 to 20 creatures. Stripping them from all their creatures wins the game right there. They can't counter your Bloodghasts anyway so you will win. Also, if you can get it fast enough, you can get rid of all artifact mana + mana producing land, leaving only fetches in their deck.
+1 Fastbond Not sure about this, probably unnecesary.
+Imperial Seal its not the fastest tutor, but it gets you the card in hand with clamp.

Mana Accel: (12)
4   Dark ritual
3   Culling the Weak Sacrificing creatures sucks. Adds to the tendrilesque gameplay of this deck. Replace for Cabal Therapy which is usefull on its own, is disruptive, and has flashback that you can trigger with Bloodghast whenever you like instead of having to go off with a Tendrils the same turn. I can understand why you would choose this but I don't think its useful enough because you do nothing but draw cards that don't do much either with clamp/ghast/culling.
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby No red
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mana Crypt It needs to go. 3 damage every turn sucks. BEsides, what are you using colorless mana for.

Lands: (12)
4   Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2   Badlands No red
3   Bayou
1   Taiga No red
4   Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3   Leyline of the Void Either board in 4 leylines + a helm of obedience or look for other graveyard hate.
3   Yxlid Jailer Replace for Ravenous Traps or Tormod's Crypts.
3   Ingot chewer Too many colors. Play Gate to Phyrexia + Bloodghast
3   Ancient Grudge Too many colors. I'd board in some extra Diabolic Edicts instead. They are good against Stax and MUD and all the other aggro matchups.
3   Emerald Charm Against what are you boarding in Charms? If you are that afraid of Leyline or Oath of Druids, use reverent silence. That way you can fetch a Dryad Arbor and clamp it after you Reverent Silence. Otherwise you are forced to get a Bayou (Considering the fact that Dryad Arbor has summoning sickness.)

[RecklessEmbermage]

Draw: (9)
3   Skullclamp
3   Confidant
3   Bazaar You mention a lot of synergies, I don't see them to be honest. Cut bazaar because you need to be disruptive, not spending your time throwing business spells in the yard.
+4 Null Rod

Are you missing the clamps or do you seriously suggest running both rod and clamp main? I guess chalice of the void (or pithing needle) is playable, but in a 10-proxy or otherwise very competitive meta, mox monkey seems worth stretching the manabase for. Goyf is more replaceable, IMO (I would run bitterblossom).

Also: I completely brainfarted on bazaar when first reading the list. I somehow imagined they were librarys. Sorry about that. I do think that bruizar is right about bazaar though, and that another solution to the vampire challenge needs to be found. I can't think of anything but adding the 4th therapy and aim to mostly hardcast the vamps, though. Why haven't they printed a competitive, symmetrical discard spell yet? Last rites costs three whole mana and is the best I can think of, aside from wheels...

If you continue to run monkeys: Wheel of fortune and goblin lore ftw? That's not very tight is it? Firestorm as a 1-2 of with more in the SB?

[tito del monte]

Why haven't they printed a competitive, symmetrical discard spell yet?

Small Pox could fit the bill quite nicely..

[RecklessEmbermage]

Why haven't they printed a competitive, symmetrical discard spell yet?

Small Pox could fit the bill quite nicely..

Exactly! I came back to edit my last post, but you were already on the spot.

I've played against Thor Krukhaug's Pox deck, and it is annoying beyond belief. I'll go look for a link...

EDIT: This list isn't fresh anymore, but is a good starting point: http://www.stavangermagic.com/artikler.html (3d on the list)
We are talking about a mostly defensive, slow deck here, which is probably what we should be aiming for, considering how the vampire-clamp combo works.

[jaeppel]

Nice. There's a lot of testing work to be done here, and I'm very happy that you are willing to take it on.

Bazaar is interesting enough to be worth testing, but I think it's too gready. You need the game to be going your way before bazaar gets turned on.

That is exactly true.  Bazaar only works here if there is already a bob or clamp online.  Otherwise its just the bad kind of card disadvantage.  There just arent enough things to bin.   Usually i find myself activating bazaar and thinking "wtf am i going to discard."  Bob is an all-star in here.  Its really hot to use clamp to "ancestral" off bob.  Still, bazaar has its moments.  Without bazaar there is no way to get the first ghast for free, so i really cant cut it.
-1 Bazaar, +1 Confidant

To further building on synergies, I would choose bitterblossom as the main beater over negator. It is great versus stax, defends well, is unaffected by burn..

Bitterblossom is something i had been considering as a sideboard card.  Its just lightyears slower than negator, and cutting negators means clamp number two is always a dead card.  however, the usefulness in the stax matchup is really important.  But i suppose there is room in the board if i remove two other anti-stax cards.  As for the maindeck, i am already running etw, which mostly fills the same niche, but has the advantage of winning sooner rather than later.

If you run BB, then possibly even 1-2 gate to phyrexia main, rather than deed, to keep aiming at the long game and improve consistency (a less disruptable manabase and lesser dependancy on sacrament).  

Cutting wastes is interesting, but since you are replacing rods with apes, I fail to see the logic behind it. Including 4-5 wastes would let you up the land-count slightly for the vamps.

I think the list wants more fetches. Even if you keep it Brg, it seems possible to shave off the taiga and possibly a swamp for 2 bloodstained mire (or any black fetch for that matter). Having 6 fetches would reduce the utility in securing both green and red mana with a single fetch.

Yes, the lack of a strip package is glaring.  I simply reached a point where the deck was already full and i hadnt worked in the strips.  A full set would certainly be too much.  the two non-black moxen are annoying enough when I just need another black.  Running five more colorless manasources seems dangerous.  Three strips is doable, but im not sure where they could fit.

As for the fetchlands, I agree, the number should really be six.  So or the moment i will try your changes on the manabase.  Any ideas what to cut for strip/waste?  
(-1 Taiga, -1 Swamp, +2 Bloodstained Mire)

@Darkensight:  The mana crypt is an mvp in here, i wouldnt cut it for a fetch.  Crypt helps alot with getting clamp going, it drops t1 negator or confidant, and helps to cast win/etw.  This deck would just be slower without crypt.

Thanks for the input... keep the suggestions rolling.   

@BruizarAs i was typing this lengthy reply to Embermage, Bruizar gave the list a brutal rewrite.  too tired of typing to go and reply to those points.  next time.

[tef45]

Hy, I'm french and i play a deck that is similar as you, so that is my list and sorry for my bad english language^^:

Creature 16 :
4 Dark Confidant : nice draw engine
4 Bloodghast very strong with landfall and crop rotation
4 Tarmogoyf : auto include
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir 4 is obvious because help tarmo to kill opponent creature

Spells 23 :
2 Crop Rotation very interesting with Bloodghast, maybe i play 3

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy strong with bloodghast

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Null Rod good against Tezz vault, shop

4 dark ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet

Mana base 21:
3 Wasteland Mana denial
1 Strip Mine Mana denial
4 Bazaar of Baghdad the perfect good draw engine, and it's land to sacrifice to crop rotation because just one is suffisant, I hesitate to play only 3 for a third crop rotation
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
2 Forest
 
I wait your opinion and advice

[mmcgeach]

that last list just needs life from the loam.

[RecklessEmbermage]

tef45: Getting free 2/1's is ok, but I wouldn't run bloodghast without breaking it in some way. Skullclamp does that.


Jaeppel: I'll be doing some testing this week and if you don't mind, I'd like to share my results in this thread.


I'm playing in a budget, no-proxy meta, which means I can go with slower artifact-hate and I guess/hope a slower deck overall. I'll start out with this list and refine it as I go:

EDIT: Smallpox is out for the moment, and zombie infestation is in. The deck looses some edicts for big creatures, meaning gatekeeper is back in. However: Zombie infestation elegantly solves the problem of getting bloodghasts to the graveyard while providing real beaters. Little is as frustrating for an aggro opponent than clamped 2/2's and infestation becomes faster than bitterblossom and less disruptable than negator, once backed by a solid draw engine.

This was a Pox deck of sorts, but I have made the following changes: -4 smallpox, -4 bitterblossom, -1urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, +3 zombie infestation, +1 dark confidant, +3 gatekeeper of malakir, +1 gate to phyrexia, +1 swamp

4 bloodghast
4 dark confidant
3 gatekeeper of malakir

4 skullclamp
3 zombie infestation
3 gate to phyrexia

4 cabal therapy
2 bitter ordeal
2 tendrils of agony
1 demonic consultation
1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoth's will

4 dark ritual
3 culling the weak
1 lotus petal
1 sol ring
4 bloodstained mire
7 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 phyrexian tower
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

-Bitter ordeal gets the initial cut over sadistic sacrament for it's added utility against decks with more than 1-3 wincons. Sacrament is probably a better sideboard card and possibly the better card for the main too, but I like how this deck seems set up to exploit ordeal.
-Demonic consultation is probably just better than the more synergistic diabolic intent. I doubt I can afford vampiric at the moment. I'll see if the drawback on consulatation ends up hurting me or not.
-The list has only 12 functional swamps. That is minimum, I think. I'll make up my mind about the number of phyrexian towers, but I think it is between 1 and 2.
-I wrote earlier that Jaeppel's list wanted 6 fetches. This does too, but I own 4 mires and would try and avoid spending money on fetches this time around. I'll see how important the 5th and 6th fetch are to the deck.
-Crucible of worlds could be good. Maybe main or maybe in the board. But some other cards need testing first, I think.

[tef45]

tef45: Getting free 2/1's is ok, but I wouldn't run bloodghast without breaking it in some way. Skullclamp does that.

Yes for skullclamp but the french meta have a lot of tezz vault /shop/ and after Icho and Noble, so i hesitate but i think skullclamp is better for my meta in a place of Null rod

[BruiZar]

I totally did miss the clamp / rod. That's my bad. I will give some more feedback when I have it.

[RecklessEmbermage]

While doing some research on pox decks, zombie infestation came up. I think this is better than bitterblossom in my list and relegates smallpox to the sideboard. The discarding of bloodghast becomes easy and 2/2 creatures are better with clamp than 1/1's, once you include enough sac-outlets.

I'll give the above list an overhaul. Come back after half an hour if interested.

[jaeppel]

Wow, thanks everyone.  So many good suggestions here, I am working on processing them all.

Zombie infestation is a really cute idea, and much less risky than negator.  I will try to put together an infestation list myself and see what i can come up with.  I have also tried cutting my original list back to monoblack, which does leave a gaping hole in the artifact/enchantment removal category.  hopefully this disadvantage would be made up for by the increased speed and stability of running monocolor, but in the end i think some splash is needed to beat the meta.  gate to phyrexia becomes mandatory, and its just so slow at what it does compared to red and green (and even white) options.

I also hadnt thought of smallpox as a discard outlet.  The symmetry is a bit worrying, but its nice to have the extra edicts.  Gatekeeper is the natural swap out for smallpox, the only problem being a dearth of critters for the various sac outlets.  Smallpox feels very legacy to me, however anything that says "sinkhole/edict/discard/zap" for two mana deserves a second look.

One thing we should take into consideration is beating iona oath.  All the black removal in the world wont stop iona on black.  as this is likely the new oath deck to beat, having a gameplan vs iona is tricky.  A fine monoblack answer is dystopia.  If it hits before iona, the clock cant survive.  running three Dystopia sideboard along with the sacraments already there should be enough to ruin oath's plan.  Dystopia has the advantage in the matchup of attacking both the oath and the target... only problem is its no solution after the angel hits the table.

Jaeppel: I'll be doing some testing this week and if you don't mind, I'd like to share my results in this thread.

By all means, im not trying to hog the thread, All along i hoped to see different decklists for comparison.  I am not saying my build is 'the thing.'  In fact im fairly certain someone else will create a better version that none of us even thought of.

-Bitter ordeal gets the initial cut over sadistic sacrament for it's added utility against decks with more than 1-3 wincons. Sacrament is probably a better sideboard card and possibly the better card for the main too, but I like how this deck seems set up to exploit ordeal.

I havent tried with ordeal, but to me it seems like getting just to three with gravestorm isnt something that will just happen every time.  Turn one the best that can reasonably be hoped for is fetch into ritual for an ordeal @2.  Once this deck gets all of its gears working and starts sending tons of stuff to the yard, getting off an ordeal @7-9 seems really win more.  At that point cant you just win via massive CA and tendrils?

The reason im an advocate of sacrament is that a cap needs to hit fast in order to do its job.  You want to hit before the oath hits, before the tinker hits, before they find their vault.  waiting to gain value out of ordeal misses that tiny window.

-Demonic consultation is probably just better than the more synergistic diabolic intent. I doubt I can afford vampiric at the moment. I'll see if the drawback on consulatation ends up hurting me or not.

I am all about consultation in here.  I find that a good deal of the time i just want to get either a clamp, ghast, or confidant.  Consultation smooths out alot of hands missing one piece of the engine.  Someone else suggested i cut it for imperial seal, but i hate that card on principle.  the whole "directly worse than vampiric" thing.

-Crucible of worlds could be good. Maybe main or maybe in the board. But some other cards need testing first, I think.

Ive been trying a single crucible.  Ive found that usually there is no time to play it, but when it actually comes down its a bomb.  I could see one in the main as a tutor target.  Late game, if you get there, ripping crucible can be a big tideturner.  But should i be running something designed for the endgame?

[the boogie man]

I still think that just splashing green is the way to go. goyf is a huge threat, and green has a lot of options as far as permanent destruction goes. naturalize, krosan grip, and oxidize are all real good answers. and if you really needed it, maelstrom pulse is available, but slow and has some draw backs. With only a one-color splash, waste effects could be reintroduced as well. And as for rod, why not run 4 chalice and some amount of rods in the side or something.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

eiA nice discussion going on for once! We're lucky that TEAM SEMANTICS hasn't chimed in yet.

I am toally with the boogie man here. Running two colors in modern vintage is just, well, standard. Why? Because tow colors are good. the mana base really isn't enough of an issue. For example, if you run green, you're able to run the overly great life from the own, which doesn't only protect you from wasteland, but ensures landfall, mana, and sometimes a soft lock.

One thing: against Iona Oath, sacrament is what the doctor ordered G1. G2 They're bringing up to 4 creatures... (+3 Dragons or empyrial archangels.)
Seizes and blind therapies on oath; then extirpate is the way to go. (Along with some krosan grips SB)

One option for discarding ghasts could be chain of smog, which is a bit dangerous if you haven't anything on the table yet. Don't know if it's good enough. (If you have mana, life from the loam; or bob in play on the other hand, it's brutal, but the opponent might already have run out of cards...)
What i am a bit worried still is graveyard hate, which is bad for ghasts and tarmogoyf, as well as any loam options.

One other thing: You have stated that you want to use other things than the hexmange/marit lage combo. I can understand this because you need to include enough hexmages. But there is something about that due i have found out in testing: he is a must counter. Which is nice, for 2 mana. (Because they can't counter the land if you hold it)If he's on the table, you don't care about tinker or oath anymore. It's like a two card tezz for BB+B (the land drop you miss for depths) this combo is susceptible to stifle, needle, chain of vapour, though. Hmmm

[Greeg]

Here is the start of what I was considering...

Land:
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1-2 Bazaar

Creatures:
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakair

Artifact:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
3 Skull Clamp

Spells:
2-3 Crop Rotation
2 Life from the Loam
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Imperial Seal

One of my friends played a similar list at RIW this past weekend (unpowered) and it ran fairly well.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Here is the start of what I was considering...

Land:
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1-2 Bazaar

Creatures:
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakair

Artifact:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
3 Skull Clamp

Spells:
2-3 Crop Rotation
2 Life from the Loam
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Imperial Seal

One of my friends played a similar list at RIW this past weekend (unpowered) and it ran fairly well.

This looks sleek and should play well, but might be a little light in win-cons?

I also question whether bloodghast is the right choice when you have no way of discarding it or intuitioning it straight into the graveyard. Maybe your friend could give his impressions of which cards performed and which didn't?

[Greeg]

There are still a few card choices to be decided on..

Ob Nixilus is what my friend used (as a 2 of) and he was fantastic... the dude is a beast for 5 mana.

Sadistic Sacrament is another card I didnt list

Leyline + Helm can make its way into the deck as well

[Pern]

What's the fascination with discarding the Bloodghast?
I've been perfectly happy casting them.

[RecklessEmbermage]

What's the fascination with discarding the Bloodghast?
I've been perfectly happy casting them.

That's valuable feedback, you know. (And I am not being sarcastic, just to make that clear).

May we see a decklist?

Greeq: Ob Nixilis is definately interesting. If I was to go get a really big dude, I'd probably pick tombstalker, but Ob Nixilis does look like he's worth the mana..

[smasher]

The problem just casting bloodghast is that you are spending 2 mana on a creature that can't block and provides no disruption. I feel he is more powerful when he comes into play for free when you play a land. Of course playing him is fine if you have nothing else to do like when he is a late game top deck but early game you need that disruption to be flowing.

[jaeppel]

What's the fascination with discarding the Bloodghast?
I've been perfectly happy casting them.

The fascination is getting the maximum value out of the ghast.  Sure he's only  , but to get the most out of the card that mana should never be spent.  Its the same principle as not hardcasting force of will.  I suppose it would be possible to build a deck that ran alot of green mana accelerants and was hellbent on hardcasting force instead of simply running 20+ blue cards.  That example was a bit of a stretch; its simply that if i can have something for free i dont want to pay for it.  Drawing two cards by playing a land and paying one mana is really good.  Drawing two cards for  at sorcery speed and a card in hand is much worse than any vintage playable.  Would divination.dec get anywhere?

I havent been working on ghasts with intuition, but i know there are alot of peeps out there building that deck.  Anyone have an intuition-ghast list?  The blue version would have the advantage of running islands, the finest mana-producer of them all.  I would try 3 each of intuition, ghast, clamp, and confidant...  then 4 Bazaar, because it is a land that falls.  4 Cabal therapy, because its the best.  Once blue is in the deck, i feel like i should be able to use force.  That means running a bunch of blue cards.  Fate stitcher could be interesting here.  Stitcher makes Vault playable because this deck only needs one or maximum two time walks to win, no need to go infinite.  Stitcher is also a guilt-free pitch card, and that makes me smile.  So that's already 28 cards, assuming the manditory restricteds: Ancestral, Walk, Brainstorm, Ponder, Tutors, yadda-yadda, 7-8 fetch manabase, and a huge furry monster, thats a stack of sixty. 

Stitcher in yard+vault ftw??????

[ErkBek]

Looks like you're off to a good start, but I've got to agree with the above posters on the 1's, 2's, and 3 of's. I also don't see the need for Red in the deck when you could just fully combo out with Fastbond + Tendrils. Yeah, I get that Warrens also combo's with Skullclamp, but if you're at the point of casting a large ETW you could probably just finish them off with Tendrils (and hasty Bloodghast). Tendrils can also be used as a Lava Axe when going aggro.

One thing that I'd strongly advise on from experience is making sure you're not too vulnerable to GY hate. Leyline of the Void is amazing vs. Skullclamp, Bloodghast, and Bazaar (it's decent vs. Tarmogoyf too). Planar Void is pretty decent too. When building your maindeck, you're going to want to keep in mind your sideboard given the effectiveness of hate vs. your deck. You'll definitely want postboard a strategy that involves playing through it rather than destroying it (otherwise you're better off playing Dredge). This will probably involve boarding down on Bloodghast, Skullclamp, and Bazaars for Null Rods and a more traditional Sui cards. You don't have to cut all 12 every time when boarding, just something to keep in mind. Also, considering post boarded games makes you weigh the advantages of playing Therapy over Duress. Personally, I'd start this list off with 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress, then work from there.

One card that is particularly effective at fighting threw sideboard hate is Necropotence. I'd highly recommend you try it since you're running Rituals. If you do play Tendrils, you can assemble Storm combo kills too.

Xantid Swarm and Bitterblossom are pretty solid sideboard cards that combo with Skullclamp. I'm guessing Xantid doesn't belong, but it's synergy seems cute. Bitterblossom is great vs. a lot of things and is insane with Clamp. I'd try a list more along these lines:

Disruption: 10
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sacrament

Creatures: 16
4 Confidant
4 Bloodghast
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gatekeeper
1 Dryad Arbor

Draw/Tutor: 9
3 Bazaar
4 Clamp
1 DT
1 VT
(4 Dark Confidants)

Broken: 3
1 Yawg Will
1 Tendrils
1 Fastbond

Mana: 22
1 Lotus
1 Jet
1 Emerald
1 Sapphire
1 Crypt
4 Dark Ritual
3 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
1 Necropotence
2 Gatekeeper
4 Bitterblossom
4 Null Rod
4 Hymn

This list might be a little low on mana, but you get the idea. I might be relying a little heavily on Urborg, if so you could cut a the Wastes or something. Good Luck!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Life from the Loam + Bazaar with Bloodghasts for a recurring Strip Lock that returns your attacker to play seems strong.  Like, considerably stronger than Clamp.