I agree. I'd actually consider running the Intuition / AK engine over Jace and the Impulses. I'm also not sure about the 3 Rituals / 3 Mana Drains package... It feels like this deck wants to play control and combo at the same time, and does neither all too well.

EDIT:

It's been addressed by a few posts above me, however I'd like to remind you not to put this deck on the same level as TPS in terms of aggressiveness. This deck plays very differently, taking the control role for as long as possible, and exploiting the huge amount of draw and filter available. I hardly find myself making long calculations of mana and storm count, the general plan is to slow down the game long enough for it to 'make sense' to Tendrils out. Naturally, this is not always the case, and you might find yourself in a tight spot and take some risks by stepping on the gas, but more often than not you can sit back, counter some bombs and draw / tutor EOT every turn. The momentum you generate will reach critical mass at some point and autopilot will kick in FTW.

sounds like I'll be getting myself a Foil Bribery soon...

I'm not an Oath player, but I can envision myself preferring Show and Tell to See Beyond if I have a robot in hand.

I had a friend who tried to sneak Crucible + Fastbond + Zuran Orb into all of his green decks. Infinite Life + Mana.

When you consider that green had Harrow before this in terms of 2G uber instant acceleration, you have to give props to Wizards for pushing the envelope. As far as Vintage is concerned, I just can't see it make that much of an impact... If you're gonna fetch Mishra or Bazaar, you'd be using Crop Rotation. Legacy, however, is going to have a field day with this, as 43Lands.dec just got a whole lot stronger.

I can't believe how many people here, especially what I'd consider elite players, are in favor of reprinting staples of the caliber of P9, FoW and duals. That it would make for a better, healthier format is wishful thinking. We can argue that it would bring more players to the average tournament, but more players does not make a better format. Look at how hard it is to find a quality Vintage opponent on MWS. I'm not even talking about how they play Stax, I'm talking about Forest -> Birds of Paradise.

I don't want WoTC spending their days trying to decide what cards to reprint even though they said they wouldn't. I want them printing new cards and revising erratas that can make old and overlooked cards actually playable. Ichorid is the most recent example. It successfully established itself as a serious archetype that can keep up with the good old Shop VS Drains VS Rituals.

The real problem is that Vintage gets no official support from WoTC. We get World Champs at GenCon without even the courtesy of a video archive of the Final match. Legacy is in the same boat, both formats have a horrible 'underground' feel to it, like we're some black sheep or outcasts of the general playing community. I'd argue that if high tier cards were to be reprinted, most people would do it just for collecting / dealing, since they'd have no knowledge of the formats in which they're legal.

The way I normally play Intuition -> AK is over the span of two turns, that is EOT Intu, play my turn, pass, EOT AK. With Crypt or Vault you might be able to cast it on your turn while leaving UU open. You should have Drain mana open at all times anyways, so when in doubt I'll wait for the next EOT. Drain Tendrils isn't TPS, and in fact I've found that more often than not you are better off erring in favor of slowplaying rather than try to step on the gas. This deck looks for openings, with which you can generate momentum and swing the game in your favor. It claws its way through the game, draws more and more until one turn leads into the other with a win. At least that's the overall approach I've developed. I believe that is the hardest aspect of this deck, knowing when the light turns green and you can go a little bit crazy in order to go completely crazy next turn.

What Wiley says is true, but it's situational. The same way AK dies to graveyard hate, DConf dies to any type of creature removal, first and foremost Darkblast which is seeing more and more play nowadays, furthermore that same Darkblast could keep coming back every time a new DConf comes into play. If I see an opening I'd rather capitalize on it and draw 3 (possibly 7 total) now than lay a 2/1 that'll give me a card next turn (if it survives). That's a pretty big tempo wager for this deck. As far as the mirror goes, I don't think many people still play AK overall, at least as far as the major archetypes are concerned. Last I remember it was Oath that used that... Is that still the case? Haven't played much Oath lately. Do people side a lone AK just in case? Either way, AK is not necessary to win–a few moxes and a Rebuild will be more than enough to swing the game in your favor. Many a times I've just Intuitioned for three tutors, or Lotus, Petal, and Crypt/Ritual/Jet.

Another small correction, when DC hits, whether you play Tendrils or ETW, it is lowering your Storm count by 1, not 2. I'm not sure if you're counting the extra card you draw as an extra spell to up your Storm.

I've been on the fence for DA for a long time, more than anything because it's sorcery speed. I'd much rather play that in Oath, because DT is so defensive in nature and wants to keep as much mana available during your opponent's turn as possible. When I have a lone AK, more often than not it'll draw me 4 after taking out the other 3.

I've picked up this deck some time ago and it's good to see it performing well among all the Tez/Vault followers.

My main question is the Intu/AK engine VS Dark Confidant... I run the first because I don't own any DConf, and it seems to me like in the short term it is a much better play... I believe it was Wu in Worlds who managed to survive a double DConf at 4 life just by drawing low cost stuff. That's a bit too risky for my tastes.

Intuition for AK -> AK -> Will -> AK is too insane not to run. Is beating for 2 really that big of a deal?

I remember playing Suicide Black for a long time in both Legacy and T1 some years ago. Once you get the hang of it you can get some pretty nasty stuff going. Its main advantage is that it keeps any form of Blue Control at bay effectively.

A good start is the old primer you can find here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11797.0
It is a bit outdated maybe, but it still makes a lot of good basic points about the deck philosophy, what to play, what not to play etc. I'll try not to go over anything that's in there, so read it and learn it inside out.

By definition, with Sui Black you're throwing everything and their brother at your opponent, causing you to run out of cards in hand quickly. From what I see you don't have any of the old mana-funnel staples like Masticore and Nantuko Shade. The former nowadays may not be as effective besides low cost to P/T ratio and the occasional ping, but the latter is key. It'll win you many a games if you manage to keep your opponent with little to nothing in play, which is the basic MO of this deck.

As for single cards, I pretty much agree with everything smasher said, with a strong emphasis on 3x Null Rod and no Sol Ring, cutting the Lakes and Glaciers, and upping the fetches. I disagree, however, when he suggests cutting Hymn. I'd rather cut Duress for Seize than run both and not Hymn. Starting with Ritual -> Duress/Seize -> Hymn is way too good to pass up, I've had people scoop on Turn 1 thanks to that play. Another card you should strongly consider is Contagion. I'd play that any day over Edicts. Being able to target AND being a pitch spell make it really, really good. Did I mention it also gives you TWO counters to tack on?

I'm not sure what you're trying to do with a singleton Tendrils, you don't have much of a Storm shell in there. I'd much rather cut that for the fourth Negator which you desperately need.
Finally, I've always had mixed feelings about Confidant in Sui Black. The card is great, no doubt, but it's fragile and a mild threat compared to everything else you're playing. This deck wants to lay the beatdown from the get-go. I know it's a personal choice but I'd play Flesh Reaver before D'Conf. Compare:

Ritual -> Duress/Seize -> Confidant
with
Ritual -> Duress/Seize -> Flesh Reaver

If your meta is split between Tezz and Elves, then I'd say run one main and side in the other accordingly... But I'd run Reaver main. One thing I'm not sure about is if under the new rules you can win even if the loss of life would bring you to 0. If you can't, then I guess Reaver lost a whole lot of appeal and you shouldn't listen to my advice. But honestly, do not underestimate the Reaver. It's some nasty stuff.

What i was trying to say is that TPS can be slowed down enough already with Spheres / Thorns. Adding this card is win more, also you need an above average draw to put it into play turn 1. I'd much rather play Arcane Lab against TPS.

Not all decks are so reliant on search, CS and Ichorid being the first two that jump to mind.

And on top of that, Aven and Shadow of Doubt cost less, can be played as instants, and have some added value (critter, cantrip).
Yeah, it's another piece for Workshop decks to toy with, but Tangle Wire, Smokestack and the 9 balls already do a fine job. I can't think of a single deck that exploits library searching so much for this to be an inclusion.

It only costs one less than Bargain which is a far superior card.

I would put it on the same level as Infernal Contract, and we know how much play that card gets...

What's interesting about this card is that when it triggers it goes back into your deck and isn't RFG'd or anything, making endless loops possible.

My first reaction, as always is with new cards, is 'meh'. The trigger is pretty narrow, and most likely you won't be able to use it the turn it comes down.

Losing your entire board is pretty big even with Channel cast, I mean if you draw into no colored mana (9/60 cards if you don't count the lands you should've played already) you are effectively doing nothing once it resolves. That, and every deck packs instant speed artifact hate. I would include a DSC or a Titan or both as sinks and as Tinker targets. All people need to do would be wait and counter your Channel and nothing else, and they'd still win probably.

I'm sticking with Memory Jar for now.

I've always liked this archetype, however it seems plagued by consistent unreliability against the top tier decks, whichever they may be at the moment (that is, any moment).
I think what's going on here is that you're in the middle between control and aggro, and you should pick a side.

A few cards that the old versions used to include are Masticore, Sinkhole, Flesh Reaver and Contagion - I suppose their inclusion would shift the concept to Suicide, but I swear the Reaver and good ole Masti have won me many a games. Reaver has a bit of surprise factor to it whenever it comes down, and you have to know how to use it properly (for example, your life loss triggers after it deals damage, so if it's 4-4 you can beat ftw). Contagion as well is heavily underplayed yet will kill most of the utility critters in this metagame and is free (well ok, as close to free as you can get).

Oh, and Negator absolutely, ABSOLUTELY needs to be in there.
Ritual -> Negator is too insane to pass up for a flying critter that maybe will cost less than 7 after what, turn 4? Very few decks nowadays even play direct damage. When this bad boy comes down it's make or break for most control decks.

I understand DConf and Thoughtseize need some space as well - to be honest i'm not sure if the first one belongs - yeah, extra draws, but it's kind of a tiny body, easily disruptible and you have cards like Tombstalker in there. I'd much rather run DT, VT, Necro, Bargain, Consultation, Will, maybe even Grim Tutor. Yeah, it's good synergy with the top, I just have a hard time imagining that you would have the time to use it when you don't have any countermagic. I mean, against you, threats will come down and stay since you can only make them discard. So you could take out all 8 and put in more threats or removal - the point i'm trying to make is that they only help each other out and not necessarily everything else.

4 Extirpate seem a bit many, I'd switch a few to proactive threats, or other types of defence. I can see with all the discard you run being pretty easy to get rid of pesky stuff but there is such thing as too much. You already have 12 discard spells, i used to run 4 duress and 4 hymn plus 4 hippy and never felt like they weren't discarding enough. Duress itself already picks out most of the stuff that bothers you (which is not too much to be honest, this deck plays on autopilot beautifully.)

The whole basics vs fetches is subjective - this deck needs 4, maybe 5 lands in play to function properly, any more can be useful but not necessary. If you have more in hand, they're great Masticore fodder

So, tl;dr - my suggestions would be

-2 Tombstalker
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Extirpate

+4 Negator
+2 Masticore / Contagion (4 of each between MD and SB)

I understand Sinkholes can be tough to come by, but I would honestly consider including them. If you're gonna be aggressive you need to go for the throat turn 1. Play those Dark Rituals into some nasty, bothersome stuff

anyways, good luck, let us know it evolves

I think right now the worst thing about the deck is that there are not that many threats (just the 3 Squirrel Nests, which rarely come down if you don't have Earthcraft in play already or viceversa). There's mostly just mana production / acceleration and card manipulation, which is needed but sometimes I feel like I'm playing a lot of stuff but not getting anywhere. It would be fine if you played the deck like a Control deck, but really you want to play as many permanents as possible each turn. You said yourself you draw a lot. A critter like Vinelasher Kudzu could help (I'm not going to suggest the obvious Tarmogoyf since you're shooting for a budget build), or even Yavimaya Enchantress. I remember a deck that used Endless Wurm and all the Wild Growth, Overgrowth and Fertile Ground. Maybe he could be a needed fatty, especially if you start accumulating card drawing permanents and want to get rid of them.

To be honest, Mirri's Guile is cute but using it recursively is not that productive, not until you find a fetchland... At least Library allows you to pay 8 and see 3 new cards. Intuition allows to get those cards out of your deck instantly. You can't beat search with manipulation.

Fastbond does not help with the Explorations, meaning, when it comes down you'll be taking damage after the first land regardless... I dont think that warrants cutting Bond but be careful with that.

Given the number of Forests you run (including Trops), I would just use 4 Utopia Sprawl instead of the 5 wild growth + fertile ground.

I think Altar of Dementia is a nice kill, cheap and instant speed... However you can't use it until both Squirrel Nest and Eartchraft come down... It borders on win more. The Legacy versions of this deck use Words of War as their main kill, useful if you can't attack with the squirrels. Splashing red could be problematic but a lone Taiga and the Utopia Sprawls could help?

I'd go:

-4 Wild Growth
-1 Fertile Ground
-1 Mirri's Guile
-2 Rushing River
-1 Forest
-1 Altar of Dementia

+4 Utopia Sprawl
+1 Words of War
+1 Regrowth
+2 Intuition
+1 Gifts Ungiven
+1 Taiga

As your Gifts targets I'd go Regrowth / Words of War / Squirrel Nest / Earthcraft, maybe swap Intuition for any one of the 4 you already have in your hand.
BTW, Intuition for 3 AK is almost always a great play =)

I'd definitely read up on Enchantress decks in Legacy... I mean the more I look at this, the more I want to check those out... Some of them have a nice toolbox approach, but are mainly GW.

If I were you, I'd add blue for the staples you mentioned (Brainstorm, FoW, MisD) plus Intuition, and Gifts. You have a lot of 4-of that you need to go off so either one could help you get them at instant speed. Enlightened Tutor already helps you in that. A few cheap restricted staples should be considered, things like Sol Ring and Regrowth... I'd also look into the cheaper moxes (diamond and chrome, the boost can never hurt). Sylvan Library also should be a shoo-in, enchantment AND card manipulation.

You could also take this a slightly different way by concentrating on Replenish and adding Attunement... Draw a lot, Discard all your enchants and then return them to play to go off with an army of squirrels (even add Concordant Crossroads for same turn win?)... That is, if in your meta you can get to unpowered 3W without losing first and it seems to me like you totally can. You are also saying you draw a lot of useless cards, with Attunement they'd be discard fodder. Attunement could also warrant the inclusion of Deep Analysis, maybe only as a 1 or 2-of, or even Accumulated Knowledge.

So as you see there's a lot you can do without spending too much money, and I believe they'd be all interesting directions. But given that at heart this wants to be a combo deck, you need a *lot* of search and draw, otherwise any blue deck will be able to outcontrol you and outrace you even with a single Meloku. All in all it's an interesting idea, and given that your meta is very weak you actually have a lot more freedom to experiment. Let us know how it all works out!

Short answer... No and Maybe. Bazaar is, by itself, card disadvantage AND a missed land drop. If you play it you better have a plan to abuse it. There are multiple ways to do that, but it doesn't mean that anyone can use it to their advantage. Lion's Eye Diamond is another card that falls in the same category. In a deck like Baghdad Bob, Bazaar is actually what evens out all the situational 3-ofs and 1-ofs, especially game 1 when on the draw. But to do that effectively you have to know your deck, your opponent's deck, and target their biggest weaknesses from turn 1.


I think it was pointed out before that a deck like HulkFlash has no intention of playing lands that don't produce mana. In fact, I can see Bazaar being used only in decks that are in it for the long haul and can lay down other cards to smooth out the draw and allow more filtering. If you play blue, you have a gazillion other options to create card advantage and filter your draws - but if you're not, Bazaar could be a valid option to keep up. Unfortunately, there aren't that many non-blue control archetypes that can fully take advantage of it.

I really like this deck, and have been playing it a fair amount in the past.
Turn 1 Metalworker always makes for fun Turn 2's.

It rapes combo quite effectively and I'm wondering how well it would fare against the revived Ichorid with the various 3Sphere and SoR to fight flashback.

I also ran Cloisters which are surprisingly good in most matchups, but I know that better players can work with it to permanently remove your hand from the game (i.e. Bouncing Cloister - Chain or Hurkyl's with the RFG on the stack, the second option being extremely damaging).

One direction I was considering (which has been mentioned before) was the inclusion of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - this would allow for a Black splash and a suite of Tutors and Bob for extra drawing. Since some Stax won by beating with Welders, beating with bob shouldn't feel much different. My only question is whether the average casting cost and the relatively slow tempo at which Stax / MUD beat would cause more life loss than benefit. I guess I'd feel more comfortable with Karn on the board and Smokestacks, Ubas and Cloisters beating if I had Bob in play. But then again, if I'm already beating, why would I need Bob? However there is little against being able to play DT, VT, Seal (if one was so inclined), maybe even Demonic Consultation. Something also needs to be said about 100% Nonbasic lands vs. 6-7 Basics in the main, I would probably favor the latter if I splashed black, maybe with 1 or 2 fetches. The first option would probably include Cities or Gemstone Mine. Lotus Petal would also be a good addition at that point.

Finally, another thing that struck me was the possibility of a transformational sideboard - something about siding in Null Rods and Welders g2 and 3 for Metalworkers and Cloisters, effectively flipping the deck between pure Stax and MUD, sounds fun. I'm just not sure the slots would be worth it after your opponent sides in all the arty hate they can get.

Any thoughts?

Can you use the Ruins in response to breaking the Jar? So that you can draw it again? That would be busted.