I don't really understand this argument, trading my spent tangle wire, an off color mox, an extra crucible, etc. for one of fish's clocks and 4 damage sounds pretty favorable.  Not to mention I keep a 5/5 trample on the board, something fish will continue to have headaches with unless it has white with stp. 

I agree that, against goblins, negator is not as hot.  An early gempalm can wreck you, but sb'd trikes and duplicants help this matchup greatly.  Against aggro shop, negator is a good trike target but other than that I don't see how it is complete shit, a turn 1 negator followed up by any kind of disruption such as crucible waste, wire, etc.  will give me the upper hand very early.  Even if they manage the turn 1 juggie to answer my negator, on the play I win the race and on the draw I have a higher chance of drawing another beatstick, such as jugg, which can trade with their jugg next turn while negator rides for the win.  I don't have a lot of knowledge on birdshit, but on this and FCG running negator does not mean I lose, it means I need to get crucible/waste going before they get significant threats on the board then drop negator and wire.  It's not favorabe, but after sb I believe it would be.  Trikes and dupes just rape any sort of weenie aggro strategy.  Against oath, I don't see how negator is so poor in comparison to juggernaut.  If they play turn 1 oath I'm probably going to lose regardless of my creature base, but I also have the chance for a turn 1 chalice for 2 which few oath builds can deal with sans fow.  On the other hand, negator is another fast clock on turn 1 that, followed up by decent disruption, can win the game quickly. 

Basically the deck will transform to 5/3 but without white.  It'll run negators as extra fast threats along with chalices, crucibles, tangle wires, and smokestacks as disrupt.  Also, the DC can be traded for a platinum angel to help against oath and to randomly win games I shouldn't have. 

Creatures (13)
1 platinum angel
4 negator
4 juggernaut
4 welder

Card draw/tutor/broken (8)
3 thirst/meditate
1 demonic tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 memory jar
1 yawgmoth's will

Disrupt (14)
4 smokestack
4 tangle wire
3 crucible
3 chalice of the void

mana (26)
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 tolarian academy
5 moxen
1 black lotus
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
2 glimmervoid
3 city of brass
3 gemstone mine
4 workshop

I appreciate everyone's feedback, vegeta's probably right that trading the extra negators for less disruption is a bad idea.  I just thought I'd make a deck with the two most potentially efficient creatures (the best 5/x's that can easily be played turn 1) and see what happens.  I don't think negator is utter shit, he's fast, and he's scary. 

The original idea was the ability to pump out a 5/x on turn one more consistently than 5/3 via negator.  Negator is also a superior beatstick because of trample, thus making him a strictly faster clock against anything that could chump (fish primarily, but also gobs).  Sacrificing permaneants to negator is rarely a problem in combat because, if they're blocking a 5/5 trample they're probably desperate.  You also often have extra artifacts on the table that aren't essential.  My logic is that the extra 5/x with trample adds to the decks clock speed and threat density.  After playing a bit I've discoved the dark rits may not even be neccesary, negator only requires B and the rest can be paid with moxen, sol ring, or mana crypt.  So rits could be cut for smokestacks, whispers for meditates, a few other single card changes along with a 5c mana base and it could be transformed into 5/3 with negators for faster beatdown.  The problem then is how to fit in welders, which the negators seem to be crowding out.  3 trike/duplicant are cuttable I suppose.  Any other feedback?

Hey, I actually just added mana crypt, in addition to exchanging duresses for tangle wires.  Tangle wire and crucible have a lot of synergy, and duress sometimes isn't disruptive enough, it doesn't have a constant effect.  I also went down to 3 duplicants and then changed them out for trikes MD.  Trikes are better against decks not running creatures, and still good against weenies like fish and goblins.  Thanks for the feedback. 

After playing some with the deck, I cut the su-chis because they're a turn slower than the other clocks and usually end up burning me, and added some maindeck duplicants.  I also traded out the sundering for a DC since the sundering was hitting my land more often than I liked.  Crucibles came in for tangle wires and I squeezed in the 5 strips, since crucible+strip can just plain win random games and sometimes wire leaves me with a too narrow window to win or comes too late in the game.  Chalice for 2 has been a star in a lot of games, especially against fish and oath, pondering a 4th chalice.  The consult got dropped, I'm still up in the air on night's whisper vs. thirst for knowledge, whisper is 2cc which hurts under a chalice, but it nets me +1 every time and cost 1 less.  1 less has made a significant difference.  Anyway, here's the current 61 card list:

artifacts
1 DC
1 memory jar
3 chalice
1 trinisphere
3 crucible
3 duplicant
4 juggernaut

black
3 night's whisper
1 demonic tutor
1 yawg's will
4 duress
4 phyrexian negator
4 dark ritual

blue
1 tinker
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall

perm mana
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
5 moxen
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 swamp
4 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 mishra's workshop

I put this together recently, I donno if there's anything similar around, it's nothing ingenious but seems to have some potential in the t1 aggro department:

Artifacts

1x sundering titan
1x memory jar
3x chalice of the void
1x trinisphere
4x tangle wire
4x su-chi
4x juggernaut


black

4x phyrexian negator
4x dark ritual
4x duress
4x night's whisper
1x demonic tutor
1x demonic consultation
1x yawgmoth's will

blue

1 ancestral
1 time walk
1 tinker

permaneant mana

1x sol ring
1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox ruby
1x mox pearl
1x mox jet
1x mox emerald
4x underground river
4x underground sea
4x polluted delta
4x mishra's workshop

The list is presently at 63 cards and is pretty raw since I just made it and played a couple random games against random people.  But, it has a great deal of explosiveness on turn one, a big threat on turn one happens a great deal of games.  It also has plenty of other things to do early, 4 duresses and 3 chalices, plus the lone trinisphere.  With that explosiveness plus 8 MD combo weapons it would seem this deck may be able to handle combo to some extent (at least for an aggro deck).  Also the ability to follow up a large threat consistently with a tangle wire can win many games.  Against other aggro decks you can board out the negators and bring in duplicants, triskelions, hate etc.  It feels as if the deck could be optimized a great deal, though, the night's whispers are somewhat weak but can draw into additional threats quickly.  Tangle wire can be a dead draw later on in the game, and su-chi is a turn slower than the other big beaters.  Also, welder might wanna find himself into the deck with a red splash, and that brings more options, especially in the sideboard.  Any thoughts?

After posting I had a few thoughts, thirst for knowledge is probably greater than night's whisper in here, and fitting in some mana leaks might not even be a bad idea.  Instant speed card draw would be nice and something to stop people from doing stupidly broken stuff also.  With thirst welder becomes an even nicer option but I donno about it.  Anyway, any other ideas?

Yes, when I said that trinisphere forces interactivty and forces other decks to deal with it, that's precisely what I was getting at forcefield.  People should stop complaining about losing to a card and instead start dealing with it like everyone else.  Trinisphere's restriction was a huge dissapointment to me, as it really was uncalled for and it seems to be the result of a lot of babies who refuse to change their decks around or try a different deck.

Some of the people who have been posting still say they don't have a clear idea of what interactivity is.  Dozer's explanation was pretty solid, but I thought I'd add my own idea of what interactivity is to the pool of ideas.  I see interactivity as the degree to which a deck is willing to alter its general game plan or to alter simply its immediate plan (its plan for the next turn or this turn) according to the game conditions.  Game conditions include everything from the turn, the opponent, the opponent's deck, cards in hand, life totals, what the opponent just played, what they played last turn, what they may play this turn, etc.

 Hardcore combo rarely alters its overall game plan (as do very few good vintage decks) and rarely alters its immediate plan.  If combo is on the draw and gets hymned by a sui black deck, it has undergone forced interactivity since those 2 cards probably had some role.  The degree of interactivity it has been forced into varies with the cards snatched.  Usually hardcore combo will choose to undergo the least amount of interactivity when a card is played to force it to interact by playing force of will on it.  But, in general, combo cares little for what the opponent is doing with the exception of a few hate cards, and will have more or less the same play next turn whether you play a land and say "go" or if you play a shop and a mox and drop a juggernaut.  Most other decks will interact with a turn 1 juggernaut but when faced with just a land will proceed with the original plan formulated when they got the original 7.  

So, about trinisphere, I have only dabbled a little in playing workshop decks but I played against them all the time, and think trinisphere did great things for the game.  It forced interactivity, forced decks to deal with it, to become more resilient in general and somewhat more versatile.    It was definitely an interactive card, and slowed the format down which wasn't a bad thing for vintage, with a fundamental turn of 2 at the latest.  Also, turn one shop-->trinisphere is a good play, a 2 card combo that gives a significant advantage.  But can you compare it to a truly broken turn 1 play during an older era, dark ritual --> necropotence.  I think not, that play has won more games than shop trini ever will, the advantage isn't even comparable.  And that's why necro needed the axe.  

In general, and perhaps I'm outdated or old fashioned, there are really only two kinds of cards that instantly beg restriction:  mana acceleration and card advantage.  The latter being dependent on the cost of course and the former the degree to which you are accelerated.  Turn one trinisphere wouldn't be such a problem without shop.  Turn 1 necro would be practically nonexistent without dark ritual.  These two things are what unbalance the game, not overly powerful cards, since these very powerful cards can usually be played around or generally are acceptable if their actual costs are paid.  There are a few exceptions, but trinisphere just plain wasn't one of them.

I was just browsing the open T1 forums and, as a red player for quite a while now, thought I'd drop in some of my own personal tech.  In a hyper-aggressive sligh deck 2x final fortune wins games.  It gives an extra attack phase, lots of games are lost because the opponent finds a way to either kill you or deal with your swarm before you get to swing for lethal.  I'd never use more than 2, as an extra one is completely dead.  Drawing one, though, is never dead.

don't up 4 month old threads

Hyperion

card draw/tutor/etc.

4 brainstorm
3 dim returns
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 memory jar
1 tinker
1 vampiric tutor
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoth's will
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 crop rotation
1 demonic tutor

kill

2 tendrils of agony

backup:

4 fow
2 orim's chant
1 chain of vapor

mana:

4 ESG
1 fastbond
1 tolarian academy
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
2 glimmervoid
4 dark ritual
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
5 moxen
1 mana crypt
1 LED
1 sol ring
1 mana vault

Some changes that one could make are replacing TW with mystical tutor, although I wouldn't reccomend it, the extra tutoring power is pretty strong also.  I also thought about cutting the LED for a mox diamond because it can screw you against control, but it has set up some explosive plays for me before.  Running 1 less dim returns isn't that bad, since you don't really wanna cast more than 1 a game anyway, 7 draw7's + tutors + brainstorms is adequate.

There are so many things wrong here I donno where to begin.  Bleh.  



yeah, who needs a card that's useful when you're trying to go off.  I mean, since all the turns afterwards are so important, and the turns where you do almost nothing conserving your spells for the turn that you do go off are so also so vital.



so MD 4 swarms is win against control but you are still having trouble against control (tog I'm assuming since you were duressed).  Tog is the #1 deck swarm is for.  This sounds like a problem with play ability.



This is completely moot.  Of course you can combo out before aggro can kill you, that's the whole point of a combo deck.  Aggro doesn't win because they beat you down first, they win because of first turn root maze, 1-2nd turn null rod, and whatever else they may bring in from the side in games 2-3.  In a varied meta, you will run into these hosers MDed as big O and fish are a significant presence.  They will both slow you down more than a turn and green men will ass rape you while clouds of faeries bite your nipples off.  



this is ridiculous, burn.dec will insure that your swarm ceases to exist before he gets over his summoning sickness.  Implying that swarms help against a burn deck is ludicrous.

Removing time walk is also a bad idea, first turn time walk is enough of a boost to let you go off before your opponent ever gets an untap phase, or draws a card depending on who won the roll.  I admit it's not the strongest or most synergistic card in the deck, but when looking at the turns that matter the most, 1-2, it still has significant power and pitches to fow.  Mystical tutor is a good addition to the deck also, imo.

I still have not seen a good argument backuping up swarms.  I have only seen anecdotal evidence where people have done well in a few games with them.  This, plus a few comments like "swarm stays around and gives you breathing room" just don't hold up against my direct comparison.  The only good point I've seen is that chant can be misDed, which I already pointed out, and which is obviously a much smaller risk than MDing 4 cards that are dead against everything but control and only really good against a deck with no removal (one that I can think of).



Edit:  plus, chant wins the google fight.  



- Androstan

IR to roadtrippin's post, yes swarm helps in the tog matchup, but chant helps in *every* matchup while swarm can be dead in several matchups.  I'd rather have a versatile MD card that always works in my favor sans an occasional misD and have narrow h8 in the SB, right?  



- androstan

I don't deny that xantid swarms are pretty darn good against tog, but they're mediocre at best against everything else and are just plain nothings against proactive threats + aggro.  I can't see MDing such a narrow card unless 50% of your meta is tog.  Chant is much more versatile and does essentially the same thing, for all the reasons I posted.  I've already posted a decklist, scroll back and check it out, it is basically just smmenen's with 2 chants fit in.

Edit:  plus, chant wins the google fight, pwned.

Theadvantage is right, deeds easily clear your own threats as well as theirs and hippie isn't the powerhouse it used to be, I suggested it only because of its synergy with the rest of the deck.  Either way, it is as we said, tempting wurm is either a metagame call or a SB choice, and not really a card to base a deck around.

sorry for the double post, but to respond to your question of how to make the deck better, I say try to fit in more discard to make casting the wurm easier.  Add hypnotic specter and cabal therapy, create a heavy hand disruption component combined with the board clearing ability of pernicious deed, plus your 8 "fast fats" (shade and wurm) and dark rituals and I think you have the ability to put fast pressure on the opponent while still having removal for aggro.  The only problem with this is you have to cut withered wretch for hippie, and wretch is an awesome utility creature as opposed to hippie's greater synergy (and downright scariness against control if it sticks around).  You should also replace vampiric tutor with demonic consultation, this is simply a no brainer, consult is vastly superior.  To fit in the cabals you would have to take out the lone unearth and the 3 scryings, scrying is too slow for this deck imo.  The deck wants to rape their hand quick, drop fat, and smash.  Similar to suiG strategy but with the  focus on hand destruction and replacing negator with tempting wurm.  Maybe name it "Tempting Suicide", that's a pretty could sounding name .



- androstan

Even with a moderate amount of discard I doubt you will find enough windows to cast tempting wurm productively.  In particular, artifact prison decks will have a field day dropping angels, pentavus, slavers, smokestacks, tangle wires, etc. etc. etc. off your wurm.  In general a 5/5 for 1G is insane but your opponent can almost always grab a much greater tempo boost off it than you.  

You could probably SB this in an RG deck, as per kirdape3 and toaddy, and bring it in against tog and any aggro that tends to dump their hand fast.  

Overall I don't think it's a card you can base a deck around, but against certain decks you can make it a 5/5 for 1G which is very powerful.  



- androstan

I think people just need to stop creating a thread for every stray thought that crosses their mind or every cute pile of cards they wanna show everyone.  



- androstan

You're not starting a flame at all, my perception of void was, indeed, incorrect.  Still, consult is not used in a life or death situation, consult is used to get out another sinkhole to screw your opponent, or a timely duress/hymn.  Consult doesn't just occasionally save your ass it can save your ass a lot.  I still hold to the fact that null rods have great mana denial synergy, but I agree that, after what you said, fitting them in is difficult.  The SB is pretty good, I like choke and planar void.  Anyway, I still vote for consult and rods somehow, consult first though, it really is a very good tutor, the drawback rarely means anything.  In comparison to scrying, which loses you life, removes yawg's will cards, and lets you draw cards that may not contain the one you need.  



- androstan

Null rods absolutely hands down belong in this deck in a competitive T1 metagame.  Null rod is rogue/budget decks' best friend these days, and in a deck like this it actually has a ton of synergy.  You also don't need a whole lot of beatsticks, and you want these beaters to have some kind of positive interaction with nether void, such as shade with his pumping ability that doesn't cause a CC penalty under void.  Demonic consultation needs to be in here, I'm a huge fan of consult though some are less so, but it's pure gold.  For 1 mana you get any card in your hand at instant speed, the drawback has never screwed me over before, and I used to play sui with it back in the day like a fiend.  Consult can get you that quick pDeed you need to get shit off the board you don't like, it's just awesome, I consider it and demonic tutor as virtually equal in a redundant black deck.  Also, hymns are indeed awesome disruption, but they have no synergy in a mana denial void deck.  The goal of void is to keep the opponent's mana so locked up that the cards in their hand are useless, hymn can occasionally toss lands into the yard but in general you're not really trying to keep their hand size down.   Skeletal scrying is somewhat slow, it's no necropotence, but the deck is a slow lock deck and can maybe afford a couple.  I would also consider mishra's factory as a "free" creature under void, with multiple factories you can have quite a fat beater, or have several little beaters, and you don't have to pay the extra 3 to use them.  They and shades have synergy with void, and wretches should be MDed just because they have such powerful utility in a 2/2 body for only 2 mana.  100% cc/power efficiency and a gamebreaking effect.  I would cut the hippies for their slow clock, high CC, and disruption that lacks synergy with the deck's theme.  



- androstan

I'll be flaming the blatantly stupid ones, in an effort to help the overworked tmd staff.

heh, well compared to what I could have said, believe me it's nothing.  

PS:  if you have to spend 7 pages discussing shuffling you suck at life

rofl oh no instead of taking your swarm I'll take your draw7 and now you can sit there and look stupid beating me down with your 0/1 while my tog ass rapes you.  

Nothing further.

Swarms turn all your opponent's MDed removal into counterspells, when otherwise they would be dead cards.  They don't do shit against aggro who MD hosers and SB more hosers.  Not to mention they look really stupid against gay red, a matchup that's already not so good.  Swarms are mainly tog h8, other decks that run cspells have MD removal or are plenty proactive.  Sounds like a decent SB card for tog, not a MD answer to everything that runs counters.  

On the other hand, orim's chant works now, when a combo deck wants it to.  It makes all their counters moot no matter how many they draw, is not vulnerable to removal (another must-counter for only 1 mana), it's tech in the mirror match, it's not dead against aggro (far from it), not to mention that, if chant resolves, you win.  That's kinda good too.  

Reasons why swarm is good:
Lets you save mana for next turn (what next turn?)
Gets around counterspells forever (good player = need 1 turn)

Reasons why chant is good:
Gets around counterspells on the turn you go off
Tech in mirror match
Not vulnerable to MD (or SB) removal
Can't be stifled

pros of chant>>pros of swarm

Reasons why swarm is bad:
Turns MDed removal into counterspells (3/4 cspell decks have removal)
Looks dumb against aggro
Looks even dumber against fish
Not an answer to proactive threats
Can be stifled

Reasons why chant is bad:
Can be misdirected
Leaves you with 1 less mana to go off

vulnerable to removal or vulnerable to misD?  I'll let you choose but for now I'm saying cons chant << cons swarm

The argument is not in swarms' favor as a MD card, I'd like to see a good counterargument not the few irrelevant comments I've come across so far in this thread.  



- androstan

edit:  cleaned up sentence structure/grammar

7 pages on shuffling...  

I'm speechless

orim's chant>>abeyance in draw7

about the funnest thing to do with a vandal is make juggernauts look funny ^_^.  It's pretty underhanded.  Vandals are solid but don't really go in FCG because FCG is a hyper aggressive aggro combo deck that doesn't need the extra removal/control.  I can see a couple skirks getting taken out for vandals though, the only reason I've ever used skirks is the sharpshooter combo, never as normal acceleration cuz it sucks to sac a goblin just for a mana when I'd rather have it around to boost a piledriver or make my gempalm ready for a fattie.  So you really only need the bare minimum of 1 skirk for the combo but you may want 2 for insurance against counters or removal.  Vandal slides into his slot nicely as another R cc goblin who can get rid of scary artifacts, like mindslaver, gilded lotus maybe, etc.  He's a good utility goblin, especially if you see scepters as they can be troublesome when imprinted with orim's chant, stp, fire/ice, etc.  



- Androstan

the main difference is that FCG is much faster and more resilient than sligh or stompy.  It isn't in especial need of MD h8.  The build given on the primer here, with maybe minor 1 card changes, has enough good matchups (with hardcore combo being underplayed) that it can leave the h8 in the SB.  Null rod just keeps getting better and better in T1, I remember a few months ago, null rod was decent, since then it has just gotten better and better because of the rise of slaver and artifact decks in general.  Add to this that it's pretty good at slowing/stopping combo decks and it's a must SB/MD in budget aggro control decks.  I SB 4 rods in my FCG for the slaver matchup, and it's extra h8 against tendrils combo too.  MDing rods is not a good idea in FCG, though, because it uses a fair amount of artifact acceleration to aid in its explosiveness, so rods can be dead in many matchups.  Not to mention the #1 rule of editing FCG is that, if it's not a goblin, it better be broke as shit.  Rod isn't that gamebreaking often enough to MD in FCG, the good news is you can afford to reserve a decent amount of sideboard space to combo and slaver, since FCG has decent matchups against most of the rest of the field (in general, without going into too much detail).  I SB 4 root mazes, 4 REB, and 4 rods to insure I have combo h8, if you stop the combo or delay it greatly you're free to beat down and win at liesure, so I side out my combo against tendrils.  Rods are the best thing for the slaver matchup I've come up with so far, FCG is a tight deck and you can't over SB (except against combo where it doesn't matter if your deck loses cohesiveness, just that you stop/greatly delay the combo) or FCG loses its beautiful goblin synergy.  So I think 4 rods in the board is the way to go atm, slaver isn't unwinnable, you may just need more practice.  Try playing the deck some, when I have trouble against a deck I switch to it for a while to learn what really hurts it and really get to know it intimately.  "Know your enemy" .  



- androstan

Edit:  jp's got it, you win first  the ol' "remove target opponent" except a lot faster now

don't forget artifact mutation, total stax h8.

Yeah, you're crazy, or just don't understand the deck very well.  Duress is just plain bad in the deck because you will just be taking one spell, then you'll replace it with a draw7 anyway.  Read my earlier post where I mentioned duress.  Also, taking out fow is the worst thing you could do, mana restricts you often and fow is basically free, you really shouldn't have a problem finding a blue card to pitch.  Time walk's somewhat debatable, but if nothing else you get to pitch it to fow, and if you can drop it turn 1 that gives you an enormous advantage, as you will have a high chance of being able to win before your opponent ever gets an untap phase.  Personally, I'm testing the following build, which is basically steven's with chants fit in:

card draw/search:
4 brainstorms
3 dim returns
1 time walk
1 ancestral
1 twister
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 mem jar
1 tinker
1 vamp tutor
1 necro
1 yawg's will
1 bargain
1 rotation
1 demonic tutor

kill:

1 burning wish
1 dim returns

backup:

4 fow
2 orim's chant
1 chain of vapor

mana:  

basically the same I think.  SB pretty similar, arti h8, recall, swarms, more cov's etc.  Not a whole lot was said on MD chants so I guess nobody really agrees with me on it, but that's fine .  



- androstan