i just have a simple question:

is hatred viable in this format or fow just make it unplayable?

Today I got smashed by hulk flash, lost five games on turn 1, so I now I understand the urgent thoughts of maindecking leyline of the void. I should mention I was not playing sui black, but I strongly believe we can built a decent version o this deck that can somehow deal with Hulk, GAT, and Stax.

Here’s a decklist from the top of my head that I would like to hear some opinions and/or criticism


    4 Phyrexian Negator
    4 Flesh Reaver
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Juzam Djinn (?)

    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Serum Powder
    4 Duress
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Demonic Tutor

    5 Swamp
    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Bloodstained Mire

Serum Powder: I will start with the most bizarre card choice ever. Yes, you read that right, this is a beatdown deck that maindecks serum powder. The thing is we really need a turn 0 leyline of the void to stop hulk, I mean, that’s the fastest deck I’ve ever seen, everyone is playing it so it’s just to big to be ignored. Void it’s the only way to deal with the raw speed of it, and it’s effective via disruption (duress, therapy, hymn) to allow you 3 or 4 turns, enough time to win. Serum powder it’s like running 8 leylines, since when you remove your hand from the game you increase the changes of drawing another serum or leyline. Trust me it just works. This deck it’s optimized to grant you a leyline in play in every game giving you the upper hand against the current meta (GAT, Hulk, Stax).

Cabal Therapy: Even tho this card it’s not as abusive as in, let’s say, extended, it can remove all the leyline hate you can find. Not to mention the synergy it has with negator and flesh reaver.

Negator: This is a card that has no middle term. Or it’s a really good card or an incredible awful card. But now very few decks can really screw it so I would say the meta is favourable for negator. Plus it has evasion.
Flesh Reaver: I know many people hate this creature but like I said before we need to pack buff creatures to get our opponent on a turn 3 clock (at least). This is a cheap and buff creature so I see no problem with it.

Juzam: If anyone know a better creature, a card that’s equally cheap and big let me know. I’m not a great fan of Juzam but it was him or War Beast or Su-Chi.

CONCERNING OTHER CARDS POSTED IN YOUR DECKLISTS

Chalice: Why chalice in sui? I’ve never understand that concept. I mean, null rod made sense, but chalice? Someone said it was a free antidote to Flash. But why bother, it just shuts down part of the deck (PoN and SP) which its redundant if you have leyline in play.

Going Mask/Naugth: that’s bringing to sui black all the hate Mask has.

Powder Keg: I like it. But I never like it in sui black. Running Keg it’s not being very suicidal. But if someone gimmes a good reason I might reconsider.

Dark Confinant: Risky with Flesh Reaver. I rather have a big creature in play than skinny DC.

from my experience as a sui black player i can tell you you should raise the creature count to 16/18. the thing about sui is that you need to win the game by turn 5 or else you're gonna be screwed. you don't have cursed scroll, no skeletal scrying, not even necro, so what you gonna do when the deck eventually runs out of gas? (you have no drawing engine and 90% of the current decks have one) you need at least 8 big creatures (with evasion pref) who can win the game in 3  or 4 turns, or cheap efectivce creatures who can be hatred targets. negator is a staple card, and probably my favorite creature ever, but thats a metagame choice.  i would drop the W part and go mono black, replacing the grunts for negators, the mindcensor for wretchs (wich will allow you to remove leyline of the void form the maindeck).

Yeah they’re powerful but since I’m a coward player I rather stick with the 12 disruption spells just in case. Necro, a card that’s always powerful, isn’t silly powerful in this deck (in the buried alive form) since i plan to end the game as soon as possible and even tho necro does that and much more I think it’s just a fringe card in the original form of the deck. Ok I’m starting to contradict myself. Vamp tutor (see my comment below) and Necro are gonna go maindeck.

+1 Necropotence
+1 Vampiric Tutor

-2 Hymn to Tourach

I will test this.

About the fetchlands, are they really essential if you only plan to go as far as turn 3? I mean, thinning my deck is irrelevant in that situation.


I should had pointed that this deck requires frantic mulligan. The first version of the deck even packed Serum Powder. But you are right, absolutely right. I run 8 corpse dance and 6 buried alive (consultation and DT), but even with those numbers I find myself screwed in some games. But what shall we do? Here’s a list of possibilities:

Vamp tutor
D consultation
D tutor
Necropotente
Tainted pact (swamp count should be fixed)
Imperial Seal
Night’s Whispers

Et cetera. Let’s just see what we can do staying mono black for now.


Buried alive is a more inyourface card and with a simple spell I can achive 50% of the win. Bazaar is to situational and random (even with entomb as a fix). But that’s a new possibility and, except for the confidants, I like the decklist. It’s a diferrent approach to my narrow minded decklist. Just tell how the confidants work in a quick pace deck.

There is no Mask hate. There’s just some cards aimed towards other decks that can’t stop Mask. The opponent isn’t going to pack both gy hate and Mask hate, so it’s up to you, the turk player to find a strategy to render that hate useless by choosing the right type of deck. That’s the fun part of playing this deck. You are totally right when you say you auto-lose against someone who plays both null rod and gy hate, but remember this deck is rogue, nobody will be expecting this and if they see you cast buried alive they will think you don’t run mask for the Naughts but that you kill with ghoul. And vice-versa.

Thanks guys for all your help. I will post an updated decklist soon. And feel free to post your own decklists and join the discussion. The deck can’t be full proof but at least is a new concept.

Thanks

Everyone knows how orgasmic a turn 2 kill is, even a turn 3. Nowadays Magic is so clunky that we are missing out all the fun speed decks used to give. After many many years trying to turn hatred into a viable card (impossible thanks to fow) I finally gave up and turn my attention into other possibilities. I have assemble a deck that, not only assures a very plausible turn 2 kill, is a combo deck that packs 8 – 4(plus tutors) pieces of the combo and, my favourite part, can render your opponents sideboard useless. The deck I call The Turk, is actually two different decks (old school Count Chocula and MaskNaught) which can be switched by simple sideboarding . But let me start by posting the main deck list:

combo:

    4   Buried Alive
    4   Corpse Dance
    4   Shallow Grave
    4   Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2   Sutured Ghoul

other spells: 
 
    4   Hymn to Tourach
    4   Duress   
    4   Unmask
    1   Demonic Tutor   
    1   Demonic Consultation

mana sources:

    12   Swamp
    4   Ancient Tomb
    4   Dark Ritual
    1   Black Lotus
    1   Mox Sapphire
    1   Mox Emerald
    1   Mox Jet
    1   Mox Pearl
    1   Sol Ring
    1   Mox Ruby
    1   Lotus Petal


The deck basicly needs to bury alive two dreadnoughts and a sutured ghoul and then corpse dance/ shallow grave the ghoul for a 26/26 trample haste creature. Ok, but know you will tell me: yeah the deck is cute but what about graveyard removal? Yeah that kind sucks but since nobody plays graveyard hate maindeck (which assures you game one stability) when you feel that your opponent is gonna pack that kind of stuff you change your deck completely. Here’s the sideboard and how:

sideboard:

    4   Illusionary Mask
    4   Spoils of the Vault
    4   Hunted Horror
    1   Necropotence
    1   Mind Twist
    1   Vampiric Tutor

Transforming the deck

    +4   Illusionary Mask
    +4   Spoils of the Vault
    +4   Hunted Horror
    +1   Necropotence
    +1   Mind Twist
    +1   Vampiric Tutor

    - 4   Buried Alive
    - 4   Corpse Dance
    - 4   Shallow Grave     
    - 2   Sutured Ghoul
    - 1   RANDOM SLOT

So the second version of the deck should be:   


spells: 
 
    4   Illusionary Mask
    4   Spoils of the Vault
    4   Hunted Horror
    4   Phyrexian Dreadnought

    4   Hymn to Tourach
    4   Duress   
    4   Unmask
    1   Demonic Tutor   
    1   Demonic Consultation   
    1   Necropotence
    1   Mind Twist
    1   Vampiric Tutor


mana sources:

    12   Swamp
    4   Ancient Tomb
    4   Dark Ritual
    1   Black Lotus
    1   Mox Sapphire
    1   Mox Emerald
    1   Mox Jet
    1   Mox Pearl
    1   Sol Ring
    1   Mox Ruby
    1   Lotus Petal


It kind looks like a MaskNaught decklist doesn’t it? So hypothetically if your opponent has sideboard, let’s say planar void, he not only will be playing a different deck (which is bound to mess is whole strategy) he also has 4 obsolete cards (the voids).

I’m not gonna give you a card by card break down because I think all the cards are pretty obvious.  So let’s discuss this deck, feel free to question and to suggest.

thats why i love the deck.

you posted an interesting decklist. is entomb working for you?  i find no use for the thing because, even tho you can put dreadnaught in the graveyard, youll still need to bury more then just one creature. you need 3 creatures in the yard in order to go. entomb makes the deck clunky.

why dont you try a hybryd between this deck and MaskNaught using your sideboard to shift from one deck to another, and really confused your opponent. im saying this because as you pointed both decks have diferent weakness. but i have my doubts if its really possible to change to MaskNaught by switiching just 15 cards and not having to deal with dead cards in the deck.

another thing, why no city of traitors? its has incredible synergy with the deck (turn 2 buried alive, corpse dance)

here's what i'm playing:


        4 Krosan Cloudscraper
        3 Sutured Ghoul
        4 Unmask
        4 Cabal Therapy
        4 Duress
        4 Buried Alive
        4 Shallow Grave
        4 Corpse Dance
        4 Serum Powder
        2 Engineered Explosives
        1 Demonic Tutor
        4 Dark Ritual
        7 Swamp
        4 City of Traitors
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald

ok, i know this is a very wierd build but let me explain. serum powder is like running 8 buried alives and, if by raising the ghoul count to 3 i can have acess to that, its really a small price to pay. this card allows you to get rid of a hand that wouldnt win by turn 3 giving you a second chance. try serum powder in any combo deck. you really have to play this card to realize its full power.  EE deals with everything except leyline of the void (how can i get rid of that without spalshing?)

the question is not the ability to abuse mask, you can run 3 copies of dreadnaught, while with cloudscraper you need to run 4, because you have to think about the chances of drawing a cloudscraper (without therapy you can't dump him into the yard) and still be able to feed 2 other copies to buried alive. dreadnaught opens a new slot any sugestions?

yeah of course that kind of hate sucks but thats the reason im running therapy maindeck, along with duress we have 8 quasi-answers to the problem. but i think splashing blue would be nice to solve that and to get some cliche draw engine.


thanks.

altho necro when casted wins me the game the only times i can cast it is with dark ritual. theres no other way, so i choose to just stick with the combo and use dark ritual for a possible turn 2 kill without necro.


consultation may remove a ghoul (thats why im not running serum powder) and i not to found of mask in this deck because really thats not the point. running mask as a second winning condition would make this deck like a bad version of classic mask decks. i rather concentrate my efforts on pulling the combo the fastest possible and have some way to deal with gy hate.


yeah but like i said above why run a bad version of masknaught if it seems possible to play this deck even with graveyard hate?




im thinking of splashing blue. brainstorm, careful study, and the likes along with fow would make this more consistent. the problem with that is that will slow the deck.

and remember guys you cannot afford to reach turn 4. this must kill on turn 3 or else the deck will just colapse.

the monoblack version gets me a turn two kill 30% of the time (dark ritual, moxen, buried alive 1st turn, 2nd turn shallow grave or corpse dance with cot)

but thanks for the feedback, im just a newbie i would like to see the decklists you can come up with. you get the idea, now lets just work on the deck because a turn 2 kill is nothing to snub about.

i love speed decks. really. i played hatred black all my life and all i can
say is that a turn 3 kill is funny and a turn 2 kill is orgasmic. after
piloting the original count chocula as a second deck ive found ways of achiving
such beautiful goal.butlet me tell you that this is not a regular combo deck
that goes off extremely fast, this deck can pack 8 copies of one combo piece,
which allows it to run very smothly.
here's the decklist

combo:

4 Corpse Dance
4 Shallow Grave
4 Buried Alive
4 Krosan Cloudscraper
2 Sutured Ghoul

disruption:

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach


tutors:

1 Rhystic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

mana sources:

12 Swamp
4 City of Traitors
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

the deck basicly needs to play buried alive two cloudscrapers
and a sutured ghoul and then corpse dance the ghoul for a
26/26 trample haste creature.

since this is a combo deck and theres many ways to screw you,
we need duress, which praticly gets everything thats a treath, and
therapy that always gets everything if you know what youre doing.
the main targets are fow and chalice (even tho your opponent needs
a chalice set to 3 to really do some damage).

rhystic tutor works with city of traitors so its a fine partner to
the other cliche tutors. if you somehow see vampiric tutor and seal
as a lost turn dont run it and pack 4 tainted pacts or something(
dont forget to vault of whispers to lower the swamps number). but don't
worry about that, the combo is so easy to pull of that most times you
will find that these four slots are obsolete.of course ive considered
demonic consultation, but that might remove a useful creature from
the game, so thats a big no no.

city of traitors is really the key card since it allows you to cast
buried alive turn 2. corpse dance is a really sweet card with cot too,
etc...

...build the deck and play it. youll see how consistent it is.