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Razor checking in for the first time in eons.  

Great read, gentlemen!

I agree with Kowal:  LoA>Mountain

However, I too see value in running a basic mountain.  In my Grixis decks I usually run one Mountain in the SB to bring in versus Shops to help keep my SB artifact hate cards online versus Waste-lock.  Many of Grixis' best artifact hate cards are red: Ingot Chewer, Vandalblast and Viashino Heretic.

Oh, and regarding Sorcery speed draw Night's Whisper, I'm wondering if Strategic Planning isn't just better. Both cost 2 mana.  Night's Whisper costs an added 2 life but gives an extra card.  However, since it isn't U, it isn't pitchable to either FoW or MisD.  Strategic Planning lets you look at your top 3 cards, keep 1 and bury the other 2 - Welder-enabling.  However, since it is U, it is pitchable to both FoW or MisD.

I recall someone using crazy tech of Courier's Capsule and Ichor Wellspring, too. Baleful Strix is probably better.  Weldable draw.

A great read. Thanks for writing!

Great report Jason!

This deck looks solid for the current metagame.  The 9 Balls shore up Aggro's usual weakness - Combo.  It is surprising to hear that your Aggro deck encountered serious trouble versus mono-U Control.

~Raymond

My hunch is that Mask of Memory is extraneous to RG Beatz.  It is slow, conditional card-draw.  If you want card-draw, either play Oshawa Stompy, Enchantress or run Hystrodon - un-drainable, trampling card-draw on legs is some good, I hear.

We need more guys to stick Rancor on, not more cards (ie.Mask of Memory) to stick on guys.

Aside, have any of you Kird Ape, Skyshroud Elite players tried playing Immolation to use as either cheap pump or for board control?  In addition to kiling Goblin Welders I bet it'll even kill random, stray Psychatogs.

@ XROBX

IMO, the Ankh's plight is similar to that of Black Vise's - they're dead versus both Combo and Aggro.  Also, *if* Combo gives you time to drop Ankh how many lands do you expect them to actually drop before they win?  Almost anything else is better than Ankh or Vise, including the aforementioned: Pyro Pillar, Root Maze, Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance.

The best thing about Ankh is that it is great Shrapnel Blast food.  If you do run Ankhs Shrapnel Blasts seem like ideal Bolts # 5-8 making Sol Ring and Mana Crypt excdellent accelerators, too.  This seems worth testing.

Question: Are you folks still finding you're facing enough Oath matchups to necessitate playing maindeck Naturalize over Artifact Mutation?

Question re: Pyrostatic Pillar

I have not tested this card versus Combo, yet.  I imagine that it certainly wrecks non-Tendrils-based Combo decks.  I am quite concened that Tendrils, in particular 4-Tendrils.Dec, can simply out-life us with even one storm-4 Tendrils, effectively hi-jacking our Pyro Pillar.  Is this hunch correct?

Comments:

Red Elemental Blast is still worth siding because of the prevalence of broken blue spells in MTG.  I use these over Pyro Pillar because they hurt Combo and Control more reliably than Pyro Pillar if my hunch on Tendrils is correct.

Hystrodon is working amazing as my hybridized beatstick/draw engine and dodges Mana Drain, to boot.

4 Taiga are better than 2 imo.

Root Maze is in my sideboard because it is only reliably good when you get to go first.  Hence, I run no Treetops main.

Naturalize is really only better than Artifact Mutation versus Oath which is not that prevalent an archetype anywhere is it?  So I run 4 Art.Mutation main, siding the 4 Naturalize, of course.  Mutation offers virtual card-advantage.

Boa is weak in the Plow-meta we live in imo.  I replaced him with Yoda to minimize card disadvantage in the face of Plow.  You'll never enjoy Rancor'ing anything more than Yoda himself (ie.Troll Ascetic) versus Removal.Dec.

4 Wastes, 4 Taiga, 4 Wooded, 1 Strip Mine, 4 Grim Lavamancers, 4 Gorilla Shamans, 4 Rancor and 4 Lightning Bolts are maindeck musts imo.  You also want 4 of either Naturalize or Mutation.

I have found Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Herd, and Hidden Ancients consistently reliable since before Mirrodin.  Are they not superior to weenies like: Boas, Kird Apes and Skyshroud Elite?

I don't think this deck needs to worry about Welder or Dragon enough to worry about siding a card as narrow as Ground Seal; Naturalize is more versatile.

Is there better anti-Aggro tech than Pyrokinesis SB?

Seal is already Sorcery speed, which means you probably won't get to cast it versus the decks you need to ie.Stax.  Sacred Ground SB is as slow as I'd go if you want to drop the Rack and Ruins and still have a chance versus Stax.

There is no replacement for Blood Moon; it was a short-lived meta-bomb.

My maindeck disruption is 6 cards different now, and my sideboard has tried all kinds of ideas including Exalted Angel X4.  -4 Humility +4 Angel is fun.  But they weren't necessary really because the Aggro matchup is already very favourable.

Null Rods, Mox Monkies, Energy Flux are still annoying on occasion.  Good luck boys.

Worthwhile discussion.

My quick 2 cents...

It's all about the Draw-7's, the good ones, not so much the Winds of Change, Tolarian Winds ones.  Diminishing returns is probably worth a look in addition to the usual: Tinker/Jar, Wheel, Windfall, Twister.  I've collected a pair of foil Trade Secrets just on the off-chance they might be good in my next UD build.

Black has a bunch of 'new' tutors (Spoils, Tainted, etc.) since I posted John Sexton's UD Primer a few years back.  Lemme know if you can't find it and I'll dust it off and repost it.  

Intuition/Replenish *might* be cute, too.

I think Unmask and Duress might be musts to get the Draw-7's out.  It will probably lose to Tendrils-speed decks unless it runs something like Pyrostatic Pillar.

I was resistive to even trying Mana Crypt for the same reasons as you.  However, K-Run insisted it was golden, saying: "It's your second Lotus..."  He was right.  The damage is negligible in the face of the added control it gives you.

What deck is giving you enough damage to make the Mana Crypt's average 1.5 damage per turn after it comes down scary?  Artifact mana is necessary to let you cast up to 4cc spells while keeping White Necro opperating.  Worst case I can usually waste a Seal on it though I hate myself a little more each time that I do.

About three years ago I played both Goblin Recruiter and Song of Blood [flip the top 4 cards or your library, all of your attackers get +1/+0 for each creature flipped] in a Goblin Sligh deck.

Considering my old list, Siege-Gang Commander replaces both Goblin Arms Dealer and Goblin Marshall.  Reckless Charge gets Goblin Lackey through, nicely.

Aside: bebe played an Rg Quirion Dryad build which did ok a few years ago.

The list that Mog posted above is my Gencon August 2004 list. <sighs> Dr.Sylvan posted it without my consent and it has been floating around ever since.  It did T8 a couple of times.

Metagame

White Necro is a good engine.  Parfait builds a decent prison.  It utterly owned: Aggro, Fish, Dragon and Welder decks.  Unfortunately, it rolled over to Combo including TPS and 'Tog [Deeds = shudder].  Surprisingly, Ravager killed it, too.



I can see why you'd think that.  However, I was one of the few players to actually beat the world champion's Control Slaver deck, despite his turn 1 Trinesphere.


Mana

Parfait's mana-base is bomb-proof.  Defy temptation - I discourage use of any non-basics including Strip Mine or Library in 'Belcher versions.  The new card Cranial Extraction scares me.  Basic land really is tech [which is another reason it can survive Turn 1 Trinesphere].

Redundancy

I encourage all of you to play more 4-of's in your Parfait builds given white's lack of tutoring.  Silver-bullets need tutors and early-draw to dig them out on-demand so don't rely on 1-of's to save you in a slow white deck like this.

Disruption

Humility is the meta-bomb.  What deck isn't abusing creatures?  A couple of Combo decks which run into at least some trouble in: Orim's Chant, Tormod's Crypt, Ivory Mask, Zuran Orb and Rule of Law.

When blue says 'no' Argivian Find says 'yes'.  Find says make trouble over and over, or at least lots of Lotus-action - "white ritual".

Cherry Parfait was pioneered by Morphling and K-Run who liked the idea of splashing red for Blood Moon. Blood Moon made the deck great.  Rack and Ruin and Red El.Blast helped, too.  However, Blood Moon is once again, weak in the modern metagame which has been forced to adapt to Crucible of Worlds non-basic land destruction. Heck, even Food Chain Goblins and Control Slaver are running Blood Moon in their sideboards.  

Kill-Cards

I haven't been able to think of a card yet that serves as a better shuffler (for Scroll Rack), better kill card which offers better board-control than Goblin Charbelcher.  Too bad fetch-lands have no synergy with Tax and 'Belcher because they are as great with Scroll Rack as they are with Brainstorm.  

Eternal Dragon is ok if you don't play with any Humility; however, I think Parfait needs Humility.  Decree, like E.Dragon, seems rather mana-intensive (Planar Birth = meh) which is inherently at odds with the White Necro Tax/Rack engine.

Mobilization, Sacred Mesa, and Goblin Trenches look alright since they are cheap and at least dodge the artifact hate running rampant at the moment; however, unlike 'Belcher they don't kill Welders or Monkies do they?  These might justify the use of non-basics including the usual suspects and Serra's Sanctum.

It seems like Parfait should stick with 'Belcher for awhile.

Hunch

Parfait is admittedly slow and requires P9, skill and patience to play.  I doubt it is a strong choice for this metagame even though Dragon, Oath and Slaver are ok matchups.

I have switched Pyrostatic Pillar SB [vs. Combo] for Sphere of Resistance.

I am having good results once again with maindeck Dwarven Miners.  The synergy between Root Maze, Gorilla Shaman and Miner is sick.  Occasionally, my non-basic opponents scoop to this lock.

Hystrodon is pulling its weight in lieu of Troll Ascetic - morph ability dodges Mana Drain nicely.

I am still undecided how best to kill 4cc's 4/5 Exalted Angels which utterly ruin me most of the time - Shrapnel Blast would work for you aggro Ankh guys.  Sadly, I may have to exchange tried-and-true Stormbinds for Lightning Bolts.

Maindeck Naturalize help me cope with fast Crucibles, etc.

Maindeck Hidden Gibbons is as always a house against the field - I run them over Kird Apes now.

Artifact Mutation, Ground Seal, REB, and Sphere of Resistance are my Sideboard considerations now.  Is anyone else finding Null Rod too often Oxidized, Chain of Vapored, or Welded away?

My GR-Control plan is to disrupt then to beatdown; whereas, you Boa, Kird Ape, Ankh, Rancor boys are following the Sui-B plan of: critter, then disrupt it through to win fast.

I'll post some testing results after the weekend.

Interesting thread.

RE: Aggro Element [top-heavy?]

I'm not certain you need so many fast, albeit non-controllish Aggro critters like Rootwalla, Arrogant, and Mongrel.  BTW Ascetic Troll kills slowly, but is more durable, can save you versus Aggro and is more easily cast than Arrogant without a madness outlet.  Have you considered fetchlands and Terravore?  Argothian Wurms can just win especially versus Control.

RE: Control Element [insufficient?]

Most of your control is either narrow LD or else Survival dependent.  2 Oxidize are not going to stop their artifact mana or Crux from dulling the pain of your LD spells.  Perhaps less beatdown and more and varied disruption/control would be more effective?  eg.Maindeck hate such as Root Maze, Sphere of Resistance or Null Rod.  eg. Eternal Witnesses 2-4 might be more useful than all 3 Winter's Grasp since they can dig up your LD or Wastes and swing, too.  Viridian Zealots are searchable disruption on legs; however, Oxidize and Naturalize are both faster/cheaper.

For your reference here is my last list before the deck went mono-G turning into Oshawa Stompy soonafter.  Hopefully it has some ideas for you.



Eladamri's Vineyard can absolutely help you kill them by both giving you mana and by burning your opponent.  Contrary to what many will argue, most decks can't abuse GG or GGGG every turn while facing your Root Maze, Land D and artifact hate.

The above deck evolved and abused some of these cards along the way [I hope the list is useful to you in terms of brainstorming]:

I've been out of the online scene for almost a year.  This is the first thread I've read since returning to TMD after my sabbatical.  I must say that I've enjoyed all ten pages.

I feel that RG Aggro is good, but probably no better and less consistent than plain ol' mono-Red beatdown.  However, RG Aggro:Control is superior to mono-R Aggro in only one regard, both it's disruption/hate and creatures are more versatile even if the manabase is less consistent.

Ok, on with it.  I placed 13th out of 77 at the first TMD east championship in March 2003 with this RG Zoo list.  Aside: Shock Wave discovered that Disk was superior to Keg in his UR LandStill deck at that tourney making it one of the dominant decks for the next year.



Eventually I tested the following:



In the end, it evolved through an RG Survival Toolbox 1-of-lotsa-utility-critter-deck into mono-G Oshawa Stompy in December of 2003.  This summer I toyed with splashing red into Oshawa Stompy for Stormbind to help stop Welders.  BTW, both Tracker and Razormane are tech.

I have a few thoughts on building better RG hate decks:

Maindeck redundancy (ie. playsets of 4-of's) is key in any aggro deck with no tutoring.  Where possible, I prefer 8 cards that perform the same function

Pump to creature ratio should not exceed 1:4

Blood Moon versus Crucible - both are good.  However, even one activation of opposing lands like: Bazaar, Orchard, Academy, etc. can be fatal.  So I generally prefer Blood Moon which prevents even one-time activation.  Mox Ruby is less important than Emerald if you are running Blood Moon.

Don't run either Sol Ring or Mana Crypt unless you have a lot of colourless demand in the casting cost of your spells.  Coloured mana is better unless you're running lots of 3cc spells like Blood Moon, 'Core, Call of the Herd, Crux, etc.

Versatility. In Aggro:Control pick cards that both hurt them and help you.  eg. Magma Jet may be better than Sylvan Library (even with fetch) because it both hurts them and helps you filter new cards faster [I need to test, sorry].  Oh, consider Hystrodon for card drawing that kills (even as it's morph ability lets you cheat your opponent of possible mana drain mana)

Your Root Maze tech seems excellent in respect that it both nullifies Treetop's drawback and cripples combo deck development

Boblin Bombardment or Shivan Harvest might be some weird anti-Orchard tech

Elvish Spirit Guides are the most broken unrestricted mana acceleration in Type 1 on par with Dark Ritual so use them

Neither red nor green can affect cards in the opponent's hand or on the stack.  RG's best disruption cards immediately affect the board not just the opponent's life total.  I prefer cards like: Null Rod, Cursed Scroll, Rack and Ruin, Monkey, Heretic, Blood Moon, Lavamancer, Crux, Artifact Mutation, Rancor, Giant Growth, Bolt, Winter Orb, Root Maze, Red Blast, Chalice, Naturalize, Stormbind, Tormod's Crypt, Bind or even Miner to cards like: Ankh of Mishra, Vise, Price of Progress or Pyrostatic Pillar.  As important as reducing your opponent's life is, fast disruption is moreso.

As cool as undercosted 2/3's are (eg.Elites or Kird) , I find them too Vanilla for Aggro-Control.  However, in pure beatdown, wow.  For Aggro-Control such as we're discussing I prefer critters with abilities which affect the board or my opponent's life total or both.  Evasion is cool too, but affects games less and less it seems: "Who blocks in Type 1?"

Troll Ascetic is worth playing, he's just so good versus both aggro and control

Wheel makes your already difficult Combo matchup even worse

I plan to do some testing in the coming weeks after which I'll post a list and some results either supporting or disproving my hunches.

Thanks Green Knight.  I enjoyed meeting you and your wife and so many other TMD'rs.

The field looked very balanced in terms of Combo and Control - Aggro however seems utterly left behind.

K-Run brought this card to my attention as soon as the spoiler was leaked.  He was onto Snow-Covered Plains from the outset:

Aggro, whilst not pure, is clearly not dead.  I doubt this article would have solicited as much fervor had Rakso stated that neither pure Aggro nor Control has ever existed.  Rare exeptions being flash-in-the-pan decks like Senor Stompy.

For all intense purposes is this discussion not over already?  I cannot fathom why we're still splitting hairs over the following:

Disruption versus Control - I don't differentiate these in my deck design; harassing an opponent, even a little, just helps you to win a lot more.  Pro-active, reactive - who cares unless you're running Chimeric Idol?

Smemmen's 5-point star versus the old 3-point star - the old Aggro, Combo, Control model works just fine for me.  eg.Both Parfait and Stax are Control decks to me, albeit atypical [non-blue] ones.

You're right, combo-sized speed is a passive form of disruption unto itself.  It forces slower decks (ie.Control and Aggro) to find answers well before they're ready to.

Parfait's greatest strength is its tendency to keep anti-'Belcher nasties like Null Rod off the table abusing such cards as Seal of Cleansing and Argivian Find.

Null Rods being so popular right now, I initially figured that Parfait was 'Belcher's best chance.  I'm pleasantly surprised here.

This deck looks as unstable as it is fast.  I won't try 1-Land-'Belcher because it is too susceptible to numerous popular hate cards.

My initial reaction to 'Belcher was: 'Wow, the new Parfait kill card.'  I think 'Belcher is probably better abused in a deck like Parfait because it features numerous maindeck solutions to 'Belcher hate.  Parfait is more stable because it gets to play with lots of land.  Let's face it, basic land is tech.  Basic land is the most stable mana-producer, albeit one of the slowest.  Heck, some of Parfait's lands are even mountains which can double the indemnity during activation.  Parfait gets away with running land in 'Belcher deck by thinning the deck of land mid-game via Land Tax.

Speed comes at the cost of stability.

2 cents: Stifle?  Rack and Ruin?

Awright, I'll wade in.



Phantom_Tapeworm made a similar argument a month or so ago.  He said that Type 1 is basically evolving into a pure Combo metagame.  New and successful decks like Oshawa Stompy belie his words.  Fundamentals like swinging in the attack phase are... er... well... fun.  If you personally don't like beatdown then by all means play either Combo or Control.  But please don't dis those of us who get a kick out of smashing face.  Realistically, Aggro is here to stay, despite your wishes.


Well, I generally subscribe to the 3-point, rock-paper-scissor viewpoint on the format.  Oshawa Stompy is definitely Aggro 'nuf said.  This new 5-point viewpoint is spiltting hairs imo.



Check any recent tourney results - sheesh.


Funny.  One of my favourite combo(s) is: Taiga, Kird Ape, go.  Another is: Swamp, Ritual, Necro, go.

"Has anyone tried Undiscovered Paridise in Stasis?"

Umm, you're not the first to ask, but I guess you failed to note that it is unworkable since you get no untap step.

"Crawlspace 3

artifact (Urzas Legacy)

No more then two creatures may attack you each combat.

Exact wording. I run alot into small creature and flying aggro my other two choices dont help much with flying creatures."

I suspect that either Tabernacle or Propaganda remain the superior anti-critter tech.

FYI, Mystic Penitent is faster than Serra Angel.

StasisMage: By using creatures (ie.3 Meddling Mage) your opponents' maindeck creature kill spells are still useful.  Have you considered making them dead draws by going creatureless?

No Misdirection?  No Chain of Vapor [the new: Rescue, Reset, Remove Enchantment]?  Targetting your own Stasis, and sac'ing a land to bounce something bad during their turn is pretty sweet.  Only 3 Stasis?  No Boomerang?

Tangle Wires seem like good tech and they make Meditates breakable.  Daze and Zuran Orb are good too.  No Impulse?

Wolven: Darksteel Reactor is a really, really slow win condition.  Do you think it is superior to cheaper, and faster Vise or Morphling?

Animate Dead costing 1B versus Replenish costing 3W is why people are playing Dragon now whereas before they played Pandeburst.  I like both decks.  Orim's Chant + Abeyance are tech, too.

I couldn't have said it better.

The deck was designed circa the Winter Solstice 2003, so it is still fresh, really.  As for a Primer, I posted every scrap of testing and development data on the temporary TMD here:

http://zherbus.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=tourny&action=display&num=1072478309

One thing that has disappointed me as the deck's sole creator is that no one but Kerz has posted any Tourney Reports to give anything back to me or to further the archetype.  I hear that lots of people are playing it but next to none are posting their results.  So please start posting your lists and results.

Also, please keep the original name: Oshawa Stompy.

One of my latest versions runs: 12 Forest, 1 LED and 2  Roars and I haven't run Vineyards since the first tourney.  The one that won at Carta Magica was nearly optimal.  Petrified Fields are meta-choice cards.

BTW, I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the deck.

Maybe Side Coffin Queen:

Coffin Queen

Color= Black  Type= Creature - Wizard  Cost= 2B TE(R)  
Text (TE+errata): 1/1. ; You may choose not to untap ~this~ during your untap step. ; ,{Tap}: Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control. ; Whenever ~this~ becomes untapped, remove all creatures put into play with it from the game ; Whenever you lose control of ~this~, remove all creatures put into play with it from the game. [Oracle 2001/05/02]

Bazaars in both decks leading to a hybrid; cool cool.

If anyone sees a link to Benjamin's Aggro:Combo Hybrid please post it.

I have been meaning to test this deck for a week.  I'll post it for discussion having done no testing, sorry.  I hope that it may give others ideas for their Eureka decks.

//Name: Iso-Stompy GW v.1.3
//Inspired by Diceman_X's Skull.Dec
//ray@skeleton.org
//2004-Jan-28
//Cards: 60
//
//Mana: 27
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Plains
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Peral
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
//
//Critters: 12
4 Exalted Angel
4 Eternal Dragon
2 Verdant Force
2 Serra Avatar
//
//Combo: 8
4 Eureka
2 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth
1 Enlightened Tutor
//
//Disruption: 13
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Abeyance
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Balance
//
//SB: 15
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Energy Flux
1 Moat
//
//Considerations:
//Natural Order
//Phantom Nishoba
//lotta elves
//Gaea's Blessing
//Eladamri's Vineyards
//Armadillo Cloak
//Spirit Link
//Dragon Breath
//Mystic Enforcer
//Decree of Justice
//Living Wish
//Masticore
//Reya Dawnbringer
//Orim's Chant
//Seal of Cleansing
//Squee
//Survival of the Fittest
//Penumbra Wurm
//Replenish
//Story Circle
//Bazaar of Baghdad
//Insist
//Petrified Fields
//riftstone portals
//BoPs
//Zombie Infestation/Squee
//end

Well, as a rogue, generally midgame-focussed deckbuilder Oshawa Stompy is unlike 10 land El Stompy since it does have a particularly strong midgame.

Mark!  Good to see you posting!