i took out moxen cause they dont help to accelerate: like i said even with this mana base i get too much mana a zero casting cost that generates 1 mana doesnt fit well into this deck.


Why is everyone knocking colossus: he is indestructable, 11/11 with trample, tinkerable, well maybe i should add a couple show and tells but still he is playable in this deck because of the massive amount of mana you can generate...


instead of bashing help me: i wouldnt have posted if i didnt want help.

TOAD: why do you think he is a bad win condition? why is karn better? wanna elaborate? i thought this is what this site is all about...

Brokenut you are right about thirst:

how about this:
Land:
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Volcanic Island
3x Badland
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
/19 Lands

Artifacts:  
3x Darksteel Colossus
4x Trinisphere
3x Gilded Lotus
4x Smokestack
4x Tangle Wire
3x Metalworker
1x Sol Ring  
1x Memory Jar
1x Black Lotus
2x Ensnaring bridge
/26 Artifacts

Spells:
1x Time Walk
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mind Twist
1x Tinker
4x Thirst for Knowledge
/11 Goodness

Creature:
4x Goblin Welder
/4 Non-Art creatures

I took out the moxen because the mana base is allready strong and i am contimplating (spelling?) taking out more... The reason for the addition of the restrictions is because while using duals it doesnt affect the mana flow and with the drop of a blood moon, those 6 restricted cards dont become viable but not being able to play them doesnt affect the decks performance.

Ensnaring bridge and darksteel colossus is bad together: but the idea is to first set up the lock of tangle, smokestack, trinisphere (if one of these isnt present before the opponent plays a sizeable or annoying creature then drop a bridge it is almost always the case that when this deck gets going welding an expired wire for the bridge at the end of an opponents turn after having played a colossus is feasible 99% of the time. I understand they are kind of opposites but with the welders they work well together.

The whole point of my deck is the quick lock. Welders work to keep the lock in place, outing a smokestack for a wire, wire for stack etc etc... the colossus is the kill condition as well as the karn. I am debating removing the karn for a windfall or something along that line because of having tutors and restricted goodness he really isnt necessary: also having 3 colossus is plenty as well...

I understand the synergy argument of my lock and kill but colossus is a 2 turn kill and most always i can get one in play on the 5-6th turn after having the lockdown in play...

I made the mistake a couple weeks ago of thinking this was only a welder mud variant when in actuality it has components of TnT and MUD...

anyway here is my deck list:

Land:
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Volcanic Island
4x Badland
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
/20 Lands

Artifacts:
1x Karn, Silver Golem
3x Darksteel Colossus
4x Trinisphere
4x Gilded Lotus
4x Smokestack
4x Tangle Wire
3x Metalworker
1x Sol Ring
1x Grim Monolith
1x Memory Jar
1x Black Lotus
2x Ensnaring Bridge
/29 Artifacts

Spells:
1x Time Walk
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mind Twist
1x Tinker
/7 Restricted Goodness

Creature:
4x Goblin Welder
/4 Non-Art creatures

=60 MD cards

SB:
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Rack and Ruin
4x Blood Moon
3x Chalice of the Void

This is a deck i have been working on for sometime: recently though i have hit a wall where i cant figure out the next step... before i ran grim/basalt/tomb and only 1 metalworker... after reading other posts and discussing this with friends i realized that workers arent great late in the game but they become tinker targets and cheap blockers so i put in 3 workers. Also maybe an academy would fit well but i like the current mana base. I dont think i need anymore, maybe some need to come out.

The worst part of the deck is that you have a tendency to draw too much mana generators and not enough lock when it counts... but the deck is great if it gets going in the first 3-4 turns... for this reason for awhile i was calling it suicide welder... but it is almost a merge of tnt and welder...

The SB is for an artifact heavy, dual land heavy, power heavy and dragon heavy meta...

I guess i would like to see people's opinions of this deck and where people think it should go from here... if they think it should go anywhere

I was thinking of adding a couple flings but it is more lock efficient when you can drop a colossus while the lock is in place so drawing this would almost always hurt me...

anyway please discuss....

Almost forgot: Collossus example

Turn 1: Lotus, Any land
Turn 2. Any land : sac lotus for gilded, tap gilded for tinker, tinker for colossus

GAME

I belive that both of you are wrong. Like i said before i have a 85% win percentage. I highly doubt that deck or the one you are trying to build is anywhere near as competitive.

Now lets go over my card selection.

This deck has 27+ mana sources, why do you need 4 metalworkers... you dont. That makes 31 mana sources which like someone said before just means you get mana when you need lock. The 1 metalworker is much more solid because the only real time when you need a worker is first or second turn. Running 4 workshops is more than enough.

The object of this deck is to create a lock, not to destroy lands with lands: you have smokestack for that. Why put in 5 strips if you plan on running blood moon? Dont worry about changing their lands worry about creating a lockdown situation which is almost always the 3-4 turn. A well placed tangle wire destroys most decks anyway, ecspecially when you have the means to avoid being hurt by a wire with all the massive amounts of mana.

The idea is not to change the deck entirely to black and blue: the idea is to splash some colors which help the deck but at the same time doesnt hinder the deck from a drop of blood moon.

I think that your opinions and deck designs are for mediocre wins and mediocre metas... By changing the deck into the deck i have made i think it is 10x as competitive as the old welder idea. If we argue about what cards to include when you are just falling back on an old design and still not winning tourneys or making any valid chances at reconstructing the deck into something new just relying on old deck designs with no improvements you are contributing nothing to the forum.

Darksteel colossus: an 11/11 unkillable. Tinker target. Tinker is a demonic target or vampiric target... why splash black?

I am sorry for assuming that this discussion was progressive... please carry on with old deck designs and i will never make a suggestion which might change your ideas of what is a good design.... all decks you found off the web anyway.... TRY SOMETHING NEW.... i told you i have an unbelievably high percentage win with this deck... Dont knock it till you try it.

Kill (9)
-1 Triskelion (working on a lock this doesnt contribute)
-3 Metal Worker (this deck is so fast that having 4 slows down your getting the good cards you need to make an efficient lock)
-1 Karn, Silver Golem (better kills since release of darksteel)
1 Metalworker - more than enough deck is too fast for 4 of them
4 Welder - self explanatory... see deck title WELDER mud
+2 Darksteel Colossus - 11/11 cant be killed versus Karn silver (insert random kill card here) target
+2 Masticore - forgot triskellion here is a permanent triskilleon

Lock(12)

-4 Chalice of the Void (useless draw: rather draw anything else than this)
-1 Mindslaver (owns Tog)  (waste of space not to mention totally off lock welder mud target)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere


Draw (3)
-4 Grafted Skullcap (why run this in a lockdown deck?)
-1 Mind's Eye (never liked this card)
1 Memory Jar - could be replaced with something better....
+1 Ancestral Recall - 3 cards one mana...
+1 Wheel of Fortune - one card left in hand? tap the lotus and off we go

Spells and Obvious Misses.... (8)
+1 Time Walk - another turn?
+1 Demonic Tutor - ummmm
+1 Tinker - YOU WERE BUILDING A WELDER DECK WITHOUT TINKER?!?!? - no wonder they made you move the discussion to newbie forum.
+2 Diabolic Edict - A lot better opponent targetting removal for that morphling
+1 Voltaic Key - it IS an artifact deck right?
+1 Mind Twist - voted best card in mtg
+1 Vamp Tutor - so helpful


Mana (29)
-5 Strip (mana lock not a land lock)
-6 Mountain (why not run duals?)
-1 Bloodstained Mire (shoudlnt even consider this card if you only have 1)
-1 Ancient Tomb (there are better more efficient ways to generate mana in mud)
-5 SoloMoxen (doesnt need it)
-1 Mana Crypt (waste of even more time)
-1 Mana Vault (your mana base sucks)
+/- 1 Academy - if you want a better deck subtract it worse add it
4 Workshop
+1 Black Lotus - much more versitile than drawing a mox
+12 Duals - 4 underground sea, 4 badlands, 4 volcanic islands- better mana base and more reliant plus get the benefit of 3 good colored spells ALSO they drop a blood moon (IT DOESNT MATTER)
+4 Fetchlands (either polluted delta or bloodstained mire) - really helps the weak draw and establichment of mana base
+1 Sol Ring - No damage much better than losing 3 to mana crypt every turn especially if in a longer duel
+4 Gilded Lotus - generating the mana is definitly not a problem in this deck so why not plus it is another workshop after you drop a tangle.
+1 Grim Monoloth - it is restricted for a reason
+1 Basalt Monoloth - better than tomb cause no limit like tomb: only 1 land a turn helps speed




Not to bash either you or your deck but your build absolutely stunk. First of all you missed TINKER. This is horrible this is possibly one of your best weapons. It would be like only running 2 welders. Also your kill conditions were sup par to say the best.... of course this deck is also pending the rotation of steel but look at the list. I think it is 20 times as solid as your deck design.

Adding the black and blue make this deck ten times better not only is this T1 and power blue is mandatory when it can slide in but adding black gives you tutors, lock in the form of twist and removal....

I dont know what your win percentage is with your build but mine with this is 85+. Dragon is no match for an early sphere and/or tangle wire and after that drop a smokestack really puts the heat on ( i base almost all my builds on dragon right now ... sorry if this is horrible but it is the deck to hate.

I think this is the mostly poorly informed post i have read since joining the mana drain:

just because a card really baffles you and you have no means to dispell it personally: you think it should be banned?

The mana cost is extrodinary. The only real reason it is good is because of Welder. The recurrsion aspect of the card is the way it gets abused. Trust me no one is playing 4 slavers in a row out of their hands. So based on your post why not ban Welder? Mindlslaver would be nothing without welder except a meditate with take another turn instead of draw 4 cards. But the kicker is it would take 2 turns just to use in most normal circumstances.

Personally i think the deck is slow to get rolling and if you know the deck (which you should in this T1 environment) then you know the decks weakness. A well placed counter or burn spell or even a NATURALIZE would thwart the deck for at least a couple turns which in T1 should be more than enough for you to come up with another stall or a win... or else maybe you should think about your decks consistency and overall win potential.

I feel my current decks biggest weakness is not slavery mud but rather dragon... if you can beat dragon who cares about slavery... slavery is far inferior.

thanks for your input:


i understand that hesitation is a weak choice for the reason that it is making an opponent waste a relativly weak card to remove it but i also thought the idea behind standstill was to generate an evironment in which an opponent becomes stalled so that constant attacks can be made.

I think that with the addition of hesitation instead of counterspells of more traditional means is better. Not only is hesitation making them waste a spell to stop damage but it is also backed by almost all pitch counters meaning that they waste a force bait and then play the real spell they wanted resolved....

for some reason, maybe i am overlooking something, i think it is much better than a mana leak: which is at best a mediocre draw versus a hesitation with a faerie and/or factory in play.

I have been toying with this deck for a couple days now. It is basically Landstill with some additions, the largest being MD 4 hesitations as another way to stop the opponent: leading to the opponent having to waste a crucial spell rather than having it resolve and you drawing 3 cards...

Deck:

MANA:
3x Mountain
4x Island
4x Volcanic Island
1x Strip mine
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Fairie Conclave

ARTIFACT:
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
3x Nevinrayll's Disc

DRAW/STALL ENGINE
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Standstill
4x Hesitation

SPELLS:
1x Time Walk
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
3x Stifle
1x Brainstorm

=60 cards total.

SIDEBOARD:
4x Tormod's Crypt (Just for WGD)
2x Pyroblast
2x Hydroblast
2x Brainstorm
1x Nevinrayll's disc

=11 cards SB (NEEDS HELP )

The hesitations really give the deck a boost, opponents have to waste spells which gives you more time to attack with ART lands. Allthough replacing brainstorm can slow this deck down.

Basically i am looking for some input on why hesitation was lookedover in the first place. To me it seems that in this deck it has quite the home. Also some help in the sideboard... i cant seem to find cards which fit into the deck and also cards to replace when sideboarding.

Back when Counterpost was around i liked the design because while locking everything down you relied on lands which were uncounterable (of course now there is stifle). When Stronghold came out i unsuccessfully tried to incorporate hesitation and a couple of the other new counter cards into a better and more advanced Counterpost, but that didnt hold up for long. (It is amazing how quickly things change in a matter of years in MTG these days.)

Any help or discussion will be appreciated...