[Deck Discussion] My current Welder Mud, is it up to par?

[serracollector]

I have been out of the type 1 loop for about 3 months, which I know isn't forever, but long enough.  This is just simply a plea for help.  I plan on going to a tourney soon, here in my hometown, and plan to see lots of Tog/Combo/Some Dragon/stax/Mud, and maybe a Keeper Deck or 3.  This is my current decklist, and I guess what I need to know is, does it look fast enough for the current Meta, is it built for the best bang (are there other/better cards I should be using now that I either didn't see or don't know about?) and how should my SideBoard be changed (I know it needs to be changed, I am just not sure how to fit what i need in)  Anywho, here beith the decklist:


Kill (10)
1 Triskelion
4 Welder
4 Metal Worker
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Lock(17)
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
1 Mindslaver (pwns Tog)

Draw(6)
4 Grafted Skullcap
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Eye

Mana(27)
5 Strip
4 Workshop
1 Academy
6 Mountain
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Ancient Tomb
7 SoloMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

SideBoard(15)
3 Active Volcano (tech vs TOg)
3 Blood Moon
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fire/Ice


Kill (11)
2 Triskelion
4 Welder
4 Metal Worker
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Lock(16)
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack

Draw(6)
4 Grafted Skullcap
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune

Mana(27)
5 Strip
4 Workshop
1 Academy
6 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
7 SoloMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

SideBoard(15
3 Dampning Matrix
2 Jester's Cap
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
1 Black Vise
2 Rack and Ruin

Now, is 2 Rack and Ruin enough?  Should I have at least 1 Tormod's Crypt in there?  Black Vise is staying.  Should I need 4 Blood moon?  I know Dampning Matrix kills the Trisk/Welder/Karn, but what to do vs Tog?  Should I have fire/ice in the side?  And, is 5 strips enough?  Well, I think thats all my q's LOL.  Please help me out ppl, I feel so lost.  Too many decks to try and SB against LOL.  Oh, and what about Keg?  Should I have those MD or SB?  I hate Tokens.  Anyway, um, help?

Serracollector

[serracollector]

thanx for the help, everyone.

[Flurp™]

why run sphere of restince over chalace?  3sphere and sphere have bad synergy together, so I would only run one, and 3sphere is better in most cases.

[Toad]

2 Triskelion
4 Welder
4 Metal Worker
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Why are you running so many dudes ?

Now, is 2 Rack and Ruin enough?  Should I have at least 1 Tormod's Crypt in there?

These are metagame calls. I'd never go to a tourney without at least 4 Tormod's Crypt and 3 Rack and Ruin.

Black Vise is staying

Feel free to play with suboptimal cards.

I know Dampning Matrix kills the Trisk/Welder/Karn, but what to do vs Tog?

Damping Matrix is rather bad against Tog. Togs biggest threats post board are Artifact Mutation, Pernicious Deed and artifact removal, and none is affected by Damping Matrix.

[DEA]

with a total of 31 sources of mana, how is the shuffling coming along? i forsee many many mulligans because you have a fistful of mana and no threats
*flashback*
27 mana sources including metalworker, i resolve a turn 1 mind's eye, reb his fow, but proceed to draw 17 straight mana sources.........
promptly got beaten down by a morphling which sundering titan can't block becaus his ass is too big to get off the ground
*end flashback*
i say this because i have many experiences like this
and that with 27

[Tautochrone]

You don't need Damping Matrix against 'Tog. You should be able to get them in a quick lock and beat them first game. Post-SB all you should need is a Blood Moon in play and a Chalice for 3 to protect it from Deed (which also stops Cunning Wish, 'Tog, Yawg Will). That's what I've noticed while playing W-Mud.
Therefore, I suggest you should take out those Sphere of Resistances and maindeck the Chalices. Chalices are SO useful. Take out the Damping Matrices from your SB and replace them with 3 Pyrostatic Pillars if you come across Tendril-based decks (that's more of a meta-call). And with those 3 slots in your SB open (from MD-ing the Chalices) you should throw in REB's (Red Elemental Blasts). But putting in Ensnaring Bridges is also an option since you run Grafted Skullcap instead of Mind's Eye.

That's what I think...but in the end it all comes down to the fact that it's a meta-game call and it's your deck, you do what you want with it.

[serracollector]

Thank you all for the advice.  Apparently my deck had to be moved to the newbie forum to get any help.  Guess competitive t1 players don't want to help me.  Anywho, enough ranting.  I agree with a lot fo what you people have said, especially since I got to playtest some more TOg over the last 3 days.  Yes, Dampning Matrix is useless, and yes REB is a must.  I thought that REB was dead due to the Grafted Skullcaps, but, when u need to kill and Energy Flux, u need to kill an Energy FLux.  Anyway. with current updates, MetaGame calls, and advice from you and others, here is the new current decklist.

Kill (11)
1 Triskelion
4 Welder
4 Metal Worker
2 Karn, Silver Golem

Lock(17)
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
1 Mindslaver (pwns Tog)

Draw(5)
4 Grafted Skullcap
1 Memory Jar

Mana(27)
5 Strip
4 Workshop
1 Academy
6 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
7 SoloMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

SideBoard(15)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Blood Moon
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trisklion

The sideboard, I feel is much better suited now, not perfect I am sure, but better suited.  2 Karn's and Slaver and Trisk up my Kill options.  Dropping Wheel for Slavery doesn't hurt, due to 4 skullcap, and Memory Jar (on the average) helps me more than my opponent, and works as an alternate win, while wheel, well fills your opp's hand too I would like to try the ensaring bridge idea, but what to drop?  The 3 REB and 3Moon and 3 Pillar and Chalice's should be enough to bout Tog right? Well, please continue with updates, and thank you very much.

[Toad]

I don't like REB in wMUD because they suck with Grafted Skullcap. The 3 slots they take are where I have my 3 Ensnaring Bridges.

[serracollector]

Hmm.  YOu were coorect Toad, REB sucks with skullcaps.  I have made several changes since my last post, here is the current. Cards in bold changes made.  Critique pls:

Kill (10)
1 Triskelion
4 Welder
4 Metal Worker
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Lock(17)
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
1 Mindslaver (pwns Tog)

Draw(6)
4 Grafted Skullcap
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Eye

Mana(27)
5 Strip
4 Workshop
1 Academy
6 Mountain
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Ancient Tomb
7 SoloMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

SideBoard(15)
2 Active Volcano (tech vs TOg)
2 Red Elemental Blast (vs other blue)
3 Blood Moon
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fire/ICe

Thanks for the advice, continue.

[hippiedance]

Kill (9)
-1 Triskelion (working on a lock this doesnt contribute)
-3 Metal Worker (this deck is so fast that having 4 slows down your getting the good cards you need to make an efficient lock)
-1 Karn, Silver Golem (better kills since release of darksteel)
1 Metalworker - more than enough deck is too fast for 4 of them
4 Welder - self explanatory... see deck title WELDER mud
+2 Darksteel Colossus - 11/11 cant be killed versus Karn silver (insert random kill card here) target
+2 Masticore - forgot triskellion here is a permanent triskilleon

Lock(12)

-4 Chalice of the Void (useless draw: rather draw anything else than this)
-1 Mindslaver (owns Tog)  (waste of space not to mention totally off lock welder mud target)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere


Draw (3)
-4 Grafted Skullcap (why run this in a lockdown deck?)
-1 Mind's Eye (never liked this card)
1 Memory Jar - could be replaced with something better....
+1 Ancestral Recall - 3 cards one mana...
+1 Wheel of Fortune - one card left in hand? tap the lotus and off we go

Spells and Obvious Misses.... (8)
+1 Time Walk - another turn?
+1 Demonic Tutor - ummmm
+1 Tinker - YOU WERE BUILDING A WELDER DECK WITHOUT TINKER?!?!? - no wonder they made you move the discussion to newbie forum.
+2 Diabolic Edict - A lot better opponent targetting removal for that morphling
+1 Voltaic Key - it IS an artifact deck right?
+1 Mind Twist - voted best card in mtg
+1 Vamp Tutor - so helpful


Mana (29)
-5 Strip (mana lock not a land lock)
-6 Mountain (why not run duals?)
-1 Bloodstained Mire (shoudlnt even consider this card if you only have 1)
-1 Ancient Tomb (there are better more efficient ways to generate mana in mud)
-5 SoloMoxen (doesnt need it)
-1 Mana Crypt (waste of even more time)
-1 Mana Vault (your mana base sucks)
+/- 1 Academy - if you want a better deck subtract it worse add it
4 Workshop
+1 Black Lotus - much more versitile than drawing a mox
+12 Duals - 4 underground sea, 4 badlands, 4 volcanic islands- better mana base and more reliant plus get the benefit of 3 good colored spells ALSO they drop a blood moon (IT DOESNT MATTER)
+4 Fetchlands (either polluted delta or bloodstained mire) - really helps the weak draw and establichment of mana base
+1 Sol Ring - No damage much better than losing 3 to mana crypt every turn especially if in a longer duel
+4 Gilded Lotus - generating the mana is definitly not a problem in this deck so why not plus it is another workshop after you drop a tangle.
+1 Grim Monoloth - it is restricted for a reason
+1 Basalt Monoloth - better than tomb cause no limit like tomb: only 1 land a turn helps speed




Not to bash either you or your deck but your build absolutely stunk. First of all you missed TINKER. This is horrible this is possibly one of your best weapons. It would be like only running 2 welders. Also your kill conditions were sup par to say the best.... of course this deck is also pending the rotation of steel but look at the list. I think it is 20 times as solid as your deck design.

Adding the black and blue make this deck ten times better not only is this T1 and power blue is mandatory when it can slide in but adding black gives you tutors, lock in the form of twist and removal....

I dont know what your win percentage is with your build but mine with this is 85+. Dragon is no match for an early sphere and/or tangle wire and after that drop a smokestack really puts the heat on ( i base almost all my builds on dragon right now ... sorry if this is horrible but it is the deck to hate.

[Shadow Ninja]

Kill (9)
-1 Triskelion (working on a lock this doesnt contribute)
-3 Metal Worker (this deck is so fast that having 4 slows down your getting the good cards you need to make an efficient lock)
-1 Karn, Silver Golem (better kills since release of darksteel)
1 Metalworker - more than enough deck is too fast for 4 of them
4 Welder - self explanatory... see deck title WELDER mud
+2 Darksteel Colossus - 11/11 cant be killed versus Karn silver (insert random kill card here) target
+2 Masticore - forgot triskellion here is a permanent triskilleon

Lock(12)

-4 Chalice of the Void (useless draw: rather draw anything else than this)
-1 Mindslaver (owns Tog)  (waste of space not to mention totally off lock welder mud target)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere


Draw (3)
-4 Grafted Skullcap (why run this in a lockdown deck?)
-1 Mind's Eye (never liked this card)
1 Memory Jar - could be replaced with something better....
+1 Ancestral Recall - 3 cards one mana...
+1 Wheel of Fortune - one card left in hand? tap the lotus and off we go

Spells and Obvious Misses.... (8)
+1 Time Walk - another turn?
+1 Demonic Tutor - ummmm
+1 Tinker - YOU WERE BUILDING A WELDER DECK WITHOUT TINKER?!?!? - no wonder they made you move the discussion to newbie forum.
+2 Diabolic Edict - A lot better opponent targetting removal for that morphling
+1 Voltaic Key - it IS an artifact deck right?
+1 Mind Twist - voted best card in mtg
+1 Vamp Tutor - so helpful


Mana (29)
-5 Strip (mana lock not a land lock)
-6 Mountain (why not run duals?)
-1 Bloodstained Mire (shoudlnt even consider this card if you only have 1)
-1 Ancient Tomb (there are better more efficient ways to generate mana in mud)
-5 SoloMoxen (doesnt need it)
-1 Mana Crypt (waste of even more time)
-1 Mana Vault (your mana base sucks)
+/- 1 Academy - if you want a better deck subtract it worse add it
4 Workshop
+1 Black Lotus - much more versitile than drawing a mox
+12 Duals - 4 underground sea, 4 badlands, 4 volcanic islands- better mana base and more reliant plus get the benefit of 3 good colored spells ALSO they drop a blood moon (IT DOESNT MATTER)
+4 Fetchlands (either polluted delta or bloodstained mire) - really helps the weak draw and establichment of mana base
+1 Sol Ring - No damage much better than losing 3 to mana crypt every turn especially if in a longer duel
+4 Gilded Lotus - generating the mana is definitly not a problem in this deck so why not plus it is another workshop after you drop a tangle.
+1 Grim Monoloth - it is restricted for a reason
+1 Basalt Monoloth - better than tomb cause no limit like tomb: only 1 land a turn helps speed




Not to bash either you or your deck but your build absolutely stunk. First of all you missed TINKER. This is horrible this is possibly one of your best weapons. It would be like only running 2 welders. Also your kill conditions were sup par to say the best.... of course this deck is also pending the rotation of steel but look at the list. I think it is 20 times as solid as your deck design.

Adding the black and blue make this deck ten times better not only is this T1 and power blue is mandatory when it can slide in but adding black gives you tutors, lock in the form of twist and removal....

I dont know what your win percentage is with your build but mine with this is 85+. Dragon is no match for an early sphere and/or tangle wire and after that drop a smokestack really puts the heat on ( i base almost all my builds on dragon right now ... sorry if this is horrible but it is the deck to hate.

Dude, no offense, but most of this advice is horrible.  Let's start from the top.

Metalworker is powerful acceleration that can help you drop down several lock pieces fast.  Trisk kills opposing Welders, maybe not maindeck material, but not horrible.  Karn is a lock piece and a good win condition; Colossus is neither, as much of the time he doesn't get dropped until turn 6 or 7, and he does nothing to improve the lock.  Masticore eats your hand, which isn't always the best thing, especially with Grafted Skullcap, but he does regenerate, so maybe he's worth it.

Chalice is great, but only in certain matchups.  It's probably the best way to slow down a combo, or better yet, stop them entirely.  Mindslaver has good synergy with Smokestack and is an "I win" card against several decks that are self destructive, such as Tog and the new Ravager Affinity decks.

Welder MUD is a MONORED VERSION OF PRISON.  Your obvious misses are stupid because you ignore this fact.  Besides, most Prison decks don't care enough about messing up their already fragile manabases by trying to fit in black.  And no one plays Morphling anymore, but rather they drop Decree of Justice.  What does your Edict tech say about that?  And Voltaic Key doesn't untap anything too important besides moxen or the occasional Vault / Monolith.  The rest of your artifacts either don't tap or tap/sac for their effect.  Key just doesn't do enough in this deck.  Since when is Mind Twist the best card in magic?  Sure, it's great disruption, but msot decks that run black don't even run it anymore.  If you want the single most powerful card in the game, you'd have to go with Yawg Will (which you strangely enough did not suggest) or Yawg Bargain.  Mind Twist doesn't even compare to those two.  

You won't find a draw spell better for a deck based on fast artifacts and Welder recursion better than Memory Jar.  It's a reusable draw seven.  That is damn good right there.

Wastelands and Strip Mine are essential to reducing the opponent's permanent count and slowing down their board development so that you hav time to set up the lock.  The service they provide is integral, and has mad synergy with... well, the entire concept of the lock.

In MUD, why run duals?  You're most likely running Blood Moon either maindecked or in the SB, so why weaken your deck to a card you most definitely should exploit as a mono colored deck?

Artifact acceleration is what makes or breaks Prison.  Prison plays a lot of expensive cards with powerful effects, and it has to do so fast in order to compete.  Without the mana acceleration, Prison just dies.  Plus, you can weld out all the mana artifacts for lock components when necessary.  There are no good reasons to cut them and plenty of reasons for them to stay.

Gilded Lotus is not acceleration until you've sed it like 3 times.  It does not help in the crucial first few turns, and if I'm casting something for 5 mana, it better be a Memory Jar or a Karn plus Mox eating or something.

On the plus side, you say you tech against Dragon, and it seems your build would have a better chance against Dragon than normal builds of MUD.

[Purple Hat]

dude, I gotta join in with shadow ninja here.  you say the deck is too fast to run metalworkers.  first of all, WHAT?!?!  how can you possibly be too fast to run a card that produces 10 mana on turn 2 or turn 3?  second of all how can the deck be fast if you cut all the moxes, cut the workers, cut the crypt and cut the academy?  if you cut all the things that make the deck fast enough to compete then the deck certainly isn't fast.  adding darksteel colossus may be the worst idea I've ever seen for this deck, especially at the price of a karn.  are you attempting to make this deck as bad as possible so that if you play him you'll win?  I don't understand where you are trying to go with this.

[hippiedance]

I belive that both of you are wrong. Like i said before i have a 85% win percentage. I highly doubt that deck or the one you are trying to build is anywhere near as competitive.

Now lets go over my card selection.

This deck has 27+ mana sources, why do you need 4 metalworkers... you dont. That makes 31 mana sources which like someone said before just means you get mana when you need lock. The 1 metalworker is much more solid because the only real time when you need a worker is first or second turn. Running 4 workshops is more than enough.

The object of this deck is to create a lock, not to destroy lands with lands: you have smokestack for that. Why put in 5 strips if you plan on running blood moon? Dont worry about changing their lands worry about creating a lockdown situation which is almost always the 3-4 turn. A well placed tangle wire destroys most decks anyway, ecspecially when you have the means to avoid being hurt by a wire with all the massive amounts of mana.

The idea is not to change the deck entirely to black and blue: the idea is to splash some colors which help the deck but at the same time doesnt hinder the deck from a drop of blood moon.

I think that your opinions and deck designs are for mediocre wins and mediocre metas... By changing the deck into the deck i have made i think it is 10x as competitive as the old welder idea. If we argue about what cards to include when you are just falling back on an old design and still not winning tourneys or making any valid chances at reconstructing the deck into something new just relying on old deck designs with no improvements you are contributing nothing to the forum.

Darksteel colossus: an 11/11 unkillable. Tinker target. Tinker is a demonic target or vampiric target... why splash black?

I am sorry for assuming that this discussion was progressive... please carry on with old deck designs and i will never make a suggestion which might change your ideas of what is a good design.... all decks you found off the web anyway.... TRY SOMETHING NEW.... i told you i have an unbelievably high percentage win with this deck... Dont knock it till you try it.

[hippiedance]

Almost forgot: Collossus example

Turn 1: Lotus, Any land
Turn 2. Any land : sac lotus for gilded, tap gilded for tinker, tinker for colossus

GAME

[RoadTrippin]

hippie that hand requires 2 restricted cards, and is essentially a 5 card "combo" that doesn't end the game (there's this little old card called swords to something.. or something to plowshares..? not to mention opposing Welders which grow more and more common).

I don't mean to offend you, but usually a player who knows much about anything doesn't post a win percentage. And, if you somehow have achieved that doubtful win %, then it's more than likely you play in a sub-par metagame. The problem with saying "don't knock it 'til you try it" to such an issue is that virtually any player can see the flaws in the argument before even touching a card.