At a huge prerelease tournament in LA, the only treasure anyone opened was a scrubland. If there was anything else, no one brought attention to it. At least we pulled two fetches and a Lotus Cobra in 2-headed giant.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

A few unbannings in legacy: Dream Halls, Entomb and Metalworker. Nothing for vintage (yet.)

I might be able to make it to this one!

I like cardshark.com. They often have extremely low prices since it's a listing service for multiple users rather than a single buyer/seller. I find that compared to eBay, the big ticket items are usually more expensive on cardshark, but lower end items are often significantly cheaper than eBay and the shipping prices are standardized.

I still love Niall Silvain, he looks like the used car salesman of the forest. I also was always a big fan of Storm Cauldron and Teferi's Puzzle Box. Put those two together and things just get silly.

With all the mana denial do you think Glowrider would be a good nail in the coffin? I can also see how he could push the mana curve a little too high and you do seem to have a lot of non-creature spells. It still seems like an option worth exploring though, particularly if you start including Tidehollow Scullers. Kudos for building a deck around Suppression Field.
-Peter

I would love to see how the metagame would respond to unrestricted Balance. In fact, I can't think of a change to the B&R list that would make me more excited about playing Vintage.

I would also like to see Flash unrestricted. Flash spawned some of the most bizarre, creative and convoluted combos in Vintage. To me, the essence of the combo deck is to win with cards that might otherwise border on unplayable if not for their interaction with each other. Without Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll, Flash does not seem particularly dangerous.

I would also agree that Entomb and Grim Monolith are safe to unrestrict. Frantic Search doesn't seem particularly frightening either but I'm less sure on that one.

Crop rotation or Strip Mine would certainly change the metagame but I think it would be imprudent to unrestrict both at the same time. I'm just not sure which would be better to try unrestricting first. If Strip Mine was unrestricted I'd want to see Gush come off the list too.

I also think Fact or Fiction is interesting because it can be a very fun card to play. The question I would pose regarding Fact or Fiction goes out to the Tezzeret players. Would Tezzeret decks play 4 Fact or Fiction? If so, what would you cut? I think if 4x Fact or Fiction doesn't make the grade in Tezzeret decks, it is probably safe to unrestrict.

-Peter

I would think that Ancient Tomb and/or City of Traitors could do this deck some good in powering out early Null Rods and Nether Voids, as well as powering through Nether Voids when you can't get Shusher online. Elvish Spirit Guides seem like they might be better than Dark Ritual since they can provide early game acceleration to help get Nether Void or Shusher out. Unlike Dark Ritual, you can use Spirit Guides to play through the Nether Void, and it can also allow a surprise activation of Shusher when you are tapped out. Besides that, if you get desperate, you can't play Dark Ritual as a 2/2 creature. I would also look at replacing Fastbond with a Spirit Guide. Fastbond seems like it would really only help you if you got it in your starting hand with enough lands to make it a worthwhile play. I could be wrong though, I haven't had a chance to test this so I'm just speculating. I hope this can be a viable deck, I was always a fan of Nether Void.
Good luck,
-Peter

The spell countering is a triggered ability that triggers when the sprite comes into play. Since it doesn't happen until it's already in play, it's no longer a spell and can't counter itself.

To make up for the card disadvantage of chrome mox, Dark Confidant seems like a natural choice and with 5 regular moxes plus 4 chrome, Black Lotus and maybe lotus petal, a first turn Dark Confidant should be an option pretty often.

It seems like there are only 2 commonly played decks that use chrome mox right now: Belcher decks and Ad Nauseam decks. These are very different from the type of deck that you are trying to build. One of the ways they are able to leverage chrome mox as an advantage is that it generates storm for free whether you imprint a card on it or not. While creature-based aggro-control decks generally do not care about building up storm count there is one card that might fit in a deck like this where the number of spells counts: Erayo, Soratami Ascendant.

With Dark Confidant and Erayo, you have two cards that can start generating significant card advantage from the first turn. These cards were played together in the old Sullivan Solution deck so there may be other ideas worth looking at from that deck as well. That being said, I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms that will wind up with a discussion of how discussing the Sullivan Solution in the context of aggro-control decks is a fundamental misunderstanding of the way SS works and how to play it.

-Peter

In the winning list, am I seeing a Volcanic Island and a Plateau just to boost Wild Nacatl and no actual red cards? If it worked it worked, but that manabase is a pretty bold move. I wonder if he managed to just avoid playing against wastelands or if 8 fetchlands and the aether vials was insurance enough to play through the land destruction.

Maybe this is a little too nostalgic, but what about Winter Orb and Relic Barrier? Relic Barrier can make trinisphere and winter orb's mana denial even more one-sided, stop them from drawing off howling mine when necessary, and lock down artifact mana to tighten the stranglehold. Then again, Winter Orb and Relic Barrier overlap somewhat with Tangle Wire which may be a better lock piece overall.

I think you could probably fit in at least a single Ill-Gotten Gains as a secondary powered down Yawgmoth's Will that can often turn into a devastating Mind Twist in the early game, even without Leyline. Including more than one would start to take the deck pretty far outside the typical vintage tendrils decks and would probably require a major restructuring. It wouldn't really be TPS anymore but it might be worth trying. If you went that way, Lion's Eye Diamond, Intuition and maybe even infernal tutor could be worth a look.

If you're going to play 4 Leylines and Dark Rituals, Ill-Gotten Gains might be a card worth considering. It's hard to say what you could cut for that, but it would probably wind up being blue and leave you a little too low on blue cards for Force of Will.

I think that Ninja of the Deep Hours is a little clunky and will wind up facing down blocking creatures too often to be very useful. With a more consistent deck you may find that you need less of a draw engine. Trinket Mage already helps provide card advantage but is less situational. Ninja is at its best when you play a 1-mana creature first turn, but if you only play 4 1-mana creatures not counting Dreadnought, you may have a hard time using ninjutsu. Compounding this, most of the time your first turn play is going to be Stifle or Brainstorm.
Like you, I was originally drawn to this color combination for a Fish deck out of the sheer patriotic novelty of it. However, I stuck with it because I was able to find success with it, finding a build that had a fighting chance against most decks in the format. It's important to consider what you get from each color, how you can make these colors work together, and how to build a mana base that is resistant to color screw without being overly susceptible to Wasteland and Magus of the Moon. I would recommend playing 6 fetchlands, 7 if you aren't expecting a lot of opponents to be packing stifles. I noticed your list has no basic lands, I would recommend at the very least, 1 basic Island. In my list I think I played 2 Islands and 1 Plains. With the extra fetches, you don't need as many dual lands. The other important thing to work on with your deck is the 2 spot on the mana curve. Meddling Mage is still probably the best choice for this slot, he works as an answer to both Oath and Flash, and one of the main reasons to run  in fish. Jotun Grunt and Kataki are also worthwhile contenders for the 2-spot, Kataki especially if your focus is mana denial. While we're talking about white cards worth playing, where is Swords to Plowshares in your list? If you're going to play white,  these cards may serve you well.
People may call you crazy for playing an aggro-control deck without Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant, but it can work.
-Peter

There are a few different approaches you can take with RWU Fish (America Fish as I call it.) This deck seems to be trying to take all of them. I know I'm not the first to say it, but fish decks are built around consistency and this deck runs a lot of 1 and 2-ofs that Trinket Mage won't find. With a more consistent deck stalling becomes less of an issue and you don't need as much of a draw engine.
My approach was to start with a traditional UW Fish and consider what adding red would do to it. Here is what I came up with.

1) You want to play red 1-drop creatures, namely Mogg Fanatic, Gorilla Shaman and Grim Lavamancer. Mogg Fanatic can be helpful against aggro and can be an effective defensive piece against flash and ichorid. Gorilla Shaman contributes to the mana denial strategy present in so many fish decks and is the answer to what would otherwise be a game-ending Chalice of the Void set at 2 for traditional UW fish.  Grim Lavamancer can turn the tide in the uphill battle against heavier aggro decks like RG Beats or Sui Black. I feel that unless you expect t face  lot of aggro, Grim Lavamancer is the worst choice because keeping the red mana to activate it is a strain on the deck's manabase. I felt like running Lavamancer demanded an unhealthy number of Volcanic Islands and not enough Tundras and basic Islands, and running a single basic Mountain doesn't work well with a mana base built off Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta. In my deck, I chose to focus on mana denial so I went with 4 gorilla shamans, plus Mogg Fanatic in the board for Flash/Ichorid/Goblins/Welders/Dark Confidant. Regardless of which creatures you choose, they will probably be replacing the white 1-drops like Isamaru and Savannah Lions, which may give you a slower clock, meaning you have to play more control and less aggro or make up for it elsewhere, such as with Dreadnought.

2) Red Elemental Blast. I like it is best in the sideboard so it is never a dead card stuck in your hand game 1 and you can often play game 1 without revealing that you are playing red. It's so efficientand good in so many matchups. Beyond the impact it has on your manabase, the only drawback I see to it is that you need to leave mana open to use it.  To make up for that disadvantage, I would typically play about 9-12 other 1-mana instants, including Brainstorm, Ancestral, Stifle and Swords to Plowshares so I would generaly have something to spend it on if I didn't need the REB.

3) Removal. Red brings in good direct damage and artifact removal, most notably Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, Rack and Ruin and Shattering Spree. I tried to keep my removal package compact but versatile so i wound up using Merchant Scroll, meaning that Fire/Ice was the obvious choice for me. Lightning Bolt is probably better as a 4-of since the deck may otherwise struggle to get in those last few points of damage. Shattering Spree is only good if you are very dedicated to red and I don't like Rack and Ruin so much as a 4-of because it seems to wind up clogging my hand in the early game and you have nothing to search it out.

In summary, I would recommend focusing on mana denial (more Gorilla Shaman and Wasteland, consider adding Daze,) play more REBs, and focus on consistency: if you're not going to play at least 3 of   a card, you probably need some way to tutor for it.
Thanks for posting and good luck!
Peter

Could Painter's Servant make Dream Halls a viable card? My guess is that it's too hard to overcome the disadvantage of paying 3UU to let your opponent cast all of his spells essentially for free. Then again,if you can circumvent one of the most basic rules of the game, there has to be some way to take better advantage of it than your opponent.

Actually there was no red splash in Shawn's Bomberman list. The red splash was in my Fish deck in the other half of the semifinals. Congratulations on the win though. I'm disappointed I didn't get to play against you. Or any Oath decks for that matter.
-Peter

I'm still in Madison, which makes me about 1/3 of the vintage scene here as far as I can tell. But I'm really cool and totally don't blow at Magic, so we've at least got that going for us. Maybe through some miracle I'll be able to get out of working on the 6th and come down to Milwaukee, otherwise I'll just be crossing my fingers until we find someone to work on Sunday or someone holds a tournament on a Saturday.
-Peter

I think it's important to consider the loss of Meddling Mage and Swords to Plowshares when you eschew white in a fish deck. You give up two solid answers to the Oath of Druids problem. Meddling Mage can also be the key to cementing a victory by protecting your board position from silliness like echoing truth or our dear old friend Massacre. A fringe benefit of playing white in a fish build is that these days if your opponent sees a Tundra, they will probably assume you're playing Bomberman until you prove otherwise.

Congratulations on your strong finish.  I was the guy playing Bomberman whose dreams you crushed with a timely Swords to Plowshares.  Playing against your deck made me realize that our friendly neighborhood Bird Wizard from the Future helps tons against extirpate and hide // seek.  I was expecting an easy game when I saw City of Brass game 1, but by about halfway through the game I was pretty sure this deck was a legitimate contender.  It certainly helped you that I was expecting the City to be shooting out Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast left and right.  Drinking malt liquor instead of playtesting is also a bad idea.  Then again, given my match against Phil's URBana fish I feel justified in being a little paranoid about those 1-mana red counterspells.  Maybe it's my inexperience talking but I feel what makes your deck a contender is that it attacks many fronts and makes the opponent try and play around the disruption.
Congratulations and good luck in the futue,
Peter Ambrose

I think Aven Mindcensor's power/toughness are too low relative to its casting cost to be effective in most aggro-control decks.  It might work better in a more control-heavy deck that can afford to play more mana acceleration and commit more resources to protecting the bird.  It does have a very potent effect, but needs to be backed up by a deck that will stall the opponent enough to make it into play.  With extra counters/disruption to protect it, it also serves as an on-board wiin condition.  It might find a home in something like the 3CC decks being discussed elsewhere on the forum.
-Peter Ambrose

Did anyone notice the Top 8 from the tournamnet in Spain on 3/24?  The winner of that 75-person tournament was playing UW Fish and there was another UW Fish player in the top 8.  It seems like it's been a good month or so for UW Fish.  Of note in the Spanish tourney, between the 2 Fish decks there were 7 Sages of Epityr.    I have also had some success with Sage of Epityr in UW Fish, getting 8th place in Milwaukee on 3/3 and splitting for 3rd/4th at the College of DuPage on 4/7.  Many people had a good laugh at me playing the little Sage.  My opponent in the semifinals was told he would have to sleep in the garage if he lost to me.  People were taking jabs at me and my wee friends from Epityr and talking about me in the third person when I was standing right next to them.  This didn't really bother me, I thought it was pretty funny actually and getting top 4 didn't exactly lower my spirits.
  Anyway, enough story time.  Why are people playing Sage of Epityr?  Here's my take on it.
1) I prefer to play up the control side of aggro-control.  It's just my personal playing style.  Sage of Epityr, while it hardly puts the opponent on much of a clock, greatly increases the chances that your next card will be a relevant piece of disruption, or a much needed mana source.
2) It has obvious synergy with Ninja of the Deep Hours.  If you are going to play Ninja, the Sage is probably the best choice of springboard for your sneaky, card-drawing friend.
3) It's blue.  Last time I checked, having dogs and cats in your hand does not help you cast Force of Will or Misdirection.  Nothing hurts more than your opponent dropping the bomb on you when you're holding Force with nothing to pitch it to.
4) As an added bonus, Sage of Epityr is a Wizard.  Voidmage Prodigy eats wizards!  Personally, I didn't run Voidmage Prodigy at either of my tournaments, but I@n suggested I try it, and it looks like it may have worked out well in Spain so I'm testing it now.
Fish on,
Peter Ambrose

I often find myself naming Massacre with Meddling Mage post-board.  If opponents are boarding in 8 cards against you and diluting their main game plan with those extra cards, I feel it's OK to use one Meddling Mage to disrupt the hate rather than slow down their offense.  That being said, if you're running into both Pyroclasm and Massacre a lot, it may be better to give up that fight.

One thing I've been wondering about though.  Why Rule of Law over Arcane Laboratory?

I second the big fliers in the sideboard and just sticking with Null Rod rather than Jitte.  The sideboard space left open by skipping the Jittes leaves room for more True Believers.  Hooray, t-bags!

Congratulations on the win Dave!  I think we all feel a little vindicated.  I'm glad to see that lazy mystical tutor get the boot.  I noticed in your report that you didn't get much use out of Seal of Cleansing.  I've never felt good about Umezawa's Jitte either.  I'd rather just keep in the null rods and let my opponent side in the Jittes.  I've always made room for Balance in either the main or sideboard and Empty the Warrens makes it that much more valuable.  I think one of the keys to a good sideboard for this deck is finding hate for other decks that also works well against the mirror/random aggro.  Examples include Kataki, True Believer, Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Sacred Ground.
Anyway, congratulations again and Fish on.
-Peter Ambrose

I think my opponent's line of thinking was that
1) brainstorm was a very important card to the deck
2) If there's one brainstorm in the deck, there must be 4.

While the first point is debatable when we consider the oversimplified view that every card in a fish deck is pretty much the same, the second is a common assumption, whether or not people give a lot of thought to it.  I have been testing phasing out Brainstorm in favor of Sage of Epityr.  I feel that what it loses on brainstorm is made up for by its ability to dig deeper into the library, deal damage and synergize with Ninja of the Deep Hours.  Given the massive amount of black that I ran into at the tournament, the Sage was also helpful because of its immunity to duress and lack of being ruined by Chains of Mephistoheles.  With Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Extirpate out, I think the popularity of Chains will rise and Duress too.

While a deck like Fish may be more resilient to extirpate than combo and control decks an early extirpate on Flooded Strand or a Tundra that's been wastelanded can be debilitating.  I had a game where I had Force of Will, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage and Tundra extirpated, and would have won anyway if it wasn't for the Tundras being gone.  I think Sacred Ground may be a viable sideboard choice if Extirpate's popularity continues and Stax keeps coming back.

-Peter Ambrose

Today in Milwaukee I piloted my UW Fish deck into my first top 8 since the 1990s.  Unfortunately my stay in the top 8 was cut short after a tragic rematch with Sui Black with extirpates.
My big insights:
Ensnaring bridge and Serendib Efreet seem to be good choices against random aggro.  Wish they would have worked better against Oath.  Fact or Fiction was also good in testing for these matchups, but never came up today.

Overall, I have been very happy with Ninja of the Deep Hours, especially with my new one-drop of choice, Sage of Epityr.  These two keep a constant stream of tailor-made problems for my opponents.
My other trick vs. Extirpate that I learned today is siding out Brainstorm.  After chaining 2 brainstorms game one when I knew I was dealing with extirpate, I sided down to just one and my opponent took the bait, extirpating the lone brainstorm.  I am interested to hear anyone else's commentary on these choices.
Good luck to all,
Peter

Hey everyone!
I'm Peter, AKA Sal the Carp.  I am not related to any of the Carp family from Wisconsin, although I am from Wisconsin.  I live in Madison and I am one of the founding members of Team IceHole.  I started playing Magic while Revised was out and I might have even missed the release of Legends just because I wasn't paying attention.  I started following tournament level Vintage last year.  I had basically retired from magic in 1998 after winning a small tournament, but now I'm back to play, and I finally caught on to how good fetchlands are.  I like to compete, but I'm still mainly in it for fun.  I'd rather pull off 8th place with something weird than first place with some ripoff deck.
I also play in the band Library Donut, work full time and go to school.
And that's me in a nutshell.