The Dark

I dont think its activation cost is to high, but its CC is a little much, is it compatible to other 6cc artifacts like Trike thats the question I think... but any artifact draw is good draw IMO

if you feel like it you could even get


Tolarian Academy
Forbidden Orchard
Strip Mine

I agree with Meat, I dont see this being any stronger then Intuition, unless some deck finds away to abuse lands in and out of your grave

I cant see this being any more useful then crop rotation

I found crop rotation to be great, you logic with it being countered is the same as oath, since this deck runs no hand disruption & only 4 counter spells the chances of having your oath countered are much just the same,

also I am starting to agree with Harlyquinn about root maze hurting you as much as your opponent

also your logic with root maze being poor with crop rotaion because the hand comes into play taped, its no difference then you drawing it and playing it for your turn it is still going to come into play taped


should you consider running 1 cunning wish SB for a brainfreeze or XDraw spell?

I like the idea, root maze has always been one of my favorate cards, and oath is currently the pet deck I am playing, but here are my questions


how is this faster then traditional oath, or even newer Enlightend oath builds?

It seems like it would need to win alot faster since your only running 4 counter spells that I can see

Intuition seems like a reall weak card here, especially without AK  its no a very effective draw engine & its a terrible tutor unless you can spare the extra 3 mana, but Oath in my opinion is a fast combo, get the oath on the board ASAP and follow up with control so long as the oath is in play..

I think Impulse > Intuition is a much more solid choice, it provides you with the same amount of card advantage, still pitches to force & is an instant, but the best part is it is only 2 to cast, with my oath build I cut Thirst For Knowledge because I found I dident cast it enough because of its 3 mana casting cost.


Have you considered Crop-rotation? I have found this to be a GREAT addition to oath, it acts like Forbidden Orchard 5 & 6, it protects against wasteland (by croping the tageted land) and can pull up a strip mine/wasteland against dredge first game, or even against other decks in good situations,

I have been thinking about The Tidespout combo more lately aswell, root maze never crossed my mind, though it seems solid, I think 4 might be really overkill, its pretty completely usless in multiples i would think...


my changes from first glance would be


-4 intuition
-1 Root maze
-1 Argivian find


+4 Impulse
+2 Crop Rotation


I am not convinced the Finds are that great, but with out blessing, they seem like it could be an interesting draw!


I am looking forward to seeing your testing results, and will thinking of my own tirant build now that you got my gears turning!

I am a little confused here....


is the idea of the deck to oath up a Glen Elendra Archmage pass the turn, counter the next two spells your oponant plays, then oath up either another Glen Elendra Archmage or Progenitus to finish the job?

This seems alot weaker then the Angel/dragon, dragon/dragon, dragon/progenitus builds that are floating around...  is the idea oath and control out untill you can deal 20 with progenitus? it just seems alot slower then traditional oath builds and if you dont leave yourself 2 mana open its a really weak creature to oath up.

oath seems to have a decent match against other control decks but can get raced easly, how do you deal with creature decks or the race to 20 points?


I am interested to hear in any testing results you may have,


cheers 

I think including the rack/tax combo starts to really bog things down a little, you would need to at least include


3 land tax
3 scroll rack

because your first E-tutor should be spent on finding oath of druids,

Eliminating blue from this deck is suicide IMO, blue is what allows this deck to compete, with a full arsonal of countersells (8 cards) and your draw (8 more cards) its what can let oath get on the board, GWB would be way to slow and defenceless, I really enjoy how the 5 color mana base is flowing, especially with the SB choices available,

The Time Vault/Key combo seems to be a "auto" include in most decks now aday's but I am not sure how it would fare in oath, while yea you could potentially "oops I win" or just Etutor for the combo it does take away from the actually direction of the deck, it deserves some testing, but I just cant find the space in my build,

this is the build that I split with in the top 8 of the double lotus event


4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
3 Lim Dul's Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric TUtor
1 Imperial Seal
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Oath of Druids
1 Platinum Angel
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tinker
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra

Sideboard:
2 Empyrial Archangel
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Oxidize
2 Energy Flux
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extract
1 Relic of Progenitus



This deck took a more 3 color approach, with the fetch land/dual land mana base


let me know how your deck does in testing

I split for the finals of a 56 man double lotus tournament this past Saturday with this build


1 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Mox Ruby
3 Impulse
3 City of Brass
1 Brainstorm
1 Black Lotus
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Oath of Druids
1 Strip Mine
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Duress
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Time Walk
2 Crop Rotation
1 Rebuild
4 Spell Snare
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Wasteland
2 Tropical island
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Ponder
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Hellkite Overlord

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Null Rod
2 Rule of Law
2 Energy Flux
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Planar Void
2 Propaganda



Seven rounds, my matches were as follows


Round 1: Remora Control 2-0
Round 2: Ichorid               0-2
Round 3: Bob Control       2-1
Round 4: Opponent did'nt show for match
Round 5: Confidant Tez     2-0
Round 6:  TPS           2-1
Round 7:  Draw

Quarter Finals - Confidant Tez   2-0
Semi Finals - Mono Black          2-0
Finals - Cash Split


The deck ran really smooth, I am still not sure the Progenitus is really the best 2nd creature but I only lost 1 game due to him, and its because I had Hellkite Time twistered into my hand :/

I am going to start testing Scroll rack over Sensei's top starting tonight, to see how that pans out I will post my results once I have them

took the Deep Analysis out last night and replaced it with Sensi's Top

so far testing has proven well, the DeepAnalysis was to expensive to cast and I found myself either pitching it or holding onto it indefinately, also by the time I "oath" it into my GY the game has pretty much ended so for 3pts of dmg it seems weak.

i dont know if maindeck would have a place for it, but definately a sideboard card, what I like about the potential of the deck is it can have a toolbox as sideboard, I will be testin choke out

actually I was toying with the idea of 1 - 2 rods, I definately forgot to add that when I wrote up the list, its definately a good idea with only 6 moxenlotus as my only artifacts! good call

I started tinkering with Oath of Druids as soon as the B&R list was announced, personally I feel that enlightened tutor and crop rotation are definitely welcomed additions to this deck, this is my "current" build (I am testing daily)

Lands (17)

4 Gemstone mine
4 City of Brass
4 forbidden orchards
2 tropical islands
2 wasteland
1 strip mine

Artifacts (6)

6 lotus moxen

Spells (35)
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 brainstorm
1 thirst for knowledge
1 deep analysis
1 ponder
3 impulse
4 force of will
4 spell snare
3 enlightened tutor
2 crop rotation
1 mystical tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
4 oath of druids
4 duress
1 gaea's blessing
1 rebuild

WIN (2)
1 Helkite Overlord
1 Progenitus (or akroma)




The mana base is currently experimental, I am not sure how stable it will be or if the damage off the cities will be relevant yet, but with the possibly of wasteland/strip combo/lock being more prevalent I think the stability of any color of mana will prove advantageous. Gemstone mine is also a great sac land to the crop rotation, the lack of fetch shuffle effects is made up for with the increase in tutor effects, it also allows a more wide range of sideboard tactics. The alternative Landbase would look similar to this

6 fetchland
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 tundra
4 forbidden orchard
1 strip mine
1 wasteland


Spell Choices

Spell snare - This card has proven much better in testing then negate has, especially allowing protection from drain & the ability to play oath 2nd or 3rd turn with back up

Enlightened tutor - this is Oath 5 - 7 at bare minimum, and of course can fetch lotus, if scroll rack or Sensi's top were maindeck it could fetch those as well. This also makes the sideboard more strategic against shop (Eflux fetching) and other tricks, so far with testing it has proven to be working well either allowing me to fetch up lotus for a solid 2nd turn oath with protection or finding the oath itself.

Crop Rotation - I always ran 1 crop rotation in all of my oath builds as it essentially acted as orchard 5, I upped the count to 2 now and its playing out well, this helps mana fix, can get wasteland, protects against land striping & gets forbidden orchard


Card Discussion

Divining top - Would the addition of 1 of these be advantageous? is 9 shuffle effects enough? Does Etutor make this advantageous?

Scroll Rack - I don’t think this has a place in this deck, there are already so many card disadvantage tutors to make this good I think, but the etutor would be able to fetch this out as well.

Vault/Key - Etutor would be able to get the missing piece of the combo easily if one was already drawn, this is something I have considered seriously adding into the deck, it would be a solid 2nd win condition.


Thoughts? Ideas?


Cheers

QFT


Wizards does seem contradict itself quite a bit while in one instance they add more new complex cards which interact uniquely with already printed cards, yet the rules department seems to want to dumb it down, its all so confusing,

I wonder if they have a "goal" or "target" set in mind over at the Mothership, or if each department kind of does their own thing, just as was mentioned how the R&D Team LOVES Stacking Damage, the Rules Department seems to dislike "complex" rules as such,

I suspect there may be internal struggles between the folks at WotC on their ideas and what the "flavor" of magic is

While the rule changes will pass over in discussion on time & we will become use to them, I tend to agree with FlyFlySideOfFry  on the side of the poor explination on WOTC behalf, I also dont think "makeing it easyer" or "because players didn't know the rules we got rid of them" is a decent reason, as with the chess analisis, there are alot of tricky chess moves that the common player may not know of, for example "castling" but it doesent mean that world chess organization should remove that move or rule becasue standard Tom, Dick & Harry dont know how it works and get taken off guard when an experienced player uses it, hardly. moves like that in chess & magic are what sets the Grandamaster or Pro apart from the noob or even the good player at your local shop.

I forsee this making MORE issues for casual players then anything, all the casual players I know Love magic and have been playing for YEARS but they still dont even know all the modern rules, simply because they are casual players and just well Play magic how they remeber playing it, this will certainly be interesting to discuss with them haha

okay yea your right, I was playing it off as normal, but for some reason felt that I shouldn't be allowed to cast it or use the alternate cost via the new rule set, thanks

Can some one tell me how Ninjutsu works under the new Combat Rules?

the obama idea has got me thinking, if the general public was'nt awair that there was an influx of power to the market would the price drop? IE: the myths that wizards prints X amount of power each year to replace worn/destroyed power, but if this was a reality and wizards put in 1000 of each piece of P9 infor the market, and dident tell anyone would this have as large of an effect, granted its sneaky (original power vs unidetifyable reprint) and if it was publically known would cause more destruction of values, but the fact remains the fact that people would initially freak out and sell/quit or otherwise their power if wizards reprinted with new borders ect,  but its the fact people knew about it rather then the natural market, what was CE worth when it was released? now each pierce of CE power is worth over 50$ which is pretty fucking good for cards that cant even be played.. ever... which is why I have to disagree with JACO


while I am not agreeing with reprinting power I say that it wont have as large of an affect on the price as you might think, if you reprinted P9 with white borders, on new frame, Beta power wouldent be affected in price much if at all, the players who want to shell out the cash for beta to have a more pimp deck with continue to do this, and compete amungst each other leaving the market value for these the same, the price that would be affect would be unlimited, which could be across the board, the prices wont drop below 50$ because then they are worth less then cards that arn't even playable which makes no sense, but I Dont think they would drop that far, while new players who dont already have those cards would purchace them, dealers and horders alike will do the same thing aticipating a price rise of the idividual cards (which they would) Remeber the first from the vault from Gencon last year? Wizards had to restrict the amount you were allowed to buy because of this reason, so who is to say for P9 this demand wouldent be two, three even four times that of some bad T2 cards & dragons, I would try to get my hands on a set, despite owning a full set ot UNL P9 simply for that reason inflation, there is obviously a demand for power, and no supply, leaving Vintage cards to escilate in price as more and more is destoryed, lost & horded while the priced would drop the day after the release of the from the vault broken shit, the prices would return to where they were, and in time increase.

doesn't any shop varrient wreck this deck?

Chalice @ 1 hoses 23 cards in the main deck

Sphere nulls non threshold rituals and moxen

There is NO countermagic to stop a first turn chalice/TSPHERE/Sphere/thorn

Duress is not very strong against workshop based decks

what are your solutions for this?

there are already several decks in the format that rely on artifact win/combo and they don't run 4 Personal tutor for tinker, why would this be any different?

Personal Tutor is useless with this card, as it only gets sorcery's and the skill borrower only steals artifacts and creatures!

ME TO!!!

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34802.0





This will be interesting, I am really like shards, it will definately shake up the format!

ok I am sold, B/R Nauseam Kobold


I duno, I am just not convinced it all, it does sound really good, but mathematically I don't like the numbers, but then again this is vintage right!

You guys are just looking at the "draw" potential of this card, and not he realistic possibilities  EVEN with 22  0 cc mana sources, 8x 5cc cards (4 fow 4 Nauseam) and the rest 1 cc spells you have an average mana cost of 1.84, which is a little un realistic, I say ANY deck which runs this card will have an average cc of 2, so 5 cards could net you - 10 life easy, I just don't think it will pan out, I like the idea of an instant speed bargain, but I think the price you will pay for life will greatly outway the cost of playing the card, while yes on occasion you will flip pure sackage, but its pretty likely that you will only be drawing on average 5-6 cards , I may also be a nay sayer, but I am going to have to agree with Webster, replace ALL your Windfall's and Infernal Contract's with it, this card still wont see play.


wtf, how often do you just draw tones of land off a ancestral recall, brainstorm, bargain, or desire? I mean yes it happens, we all can think of plenty of occations, but realistically how often? not often enough to make it worth playing these cards, Realistically you have a in the "theoretical" deck I posted in this post you will still only have a 36% of drawing land if you play this first turn, so drawing 10 cards only 3 - 4 of them will be land/mox (mathematically)

and I like how everyone wants to build a deck which takes damage from High CC cards around PLATZ, I mean  its mana people!

hehe I wasn't saying anti search will hurt oath, hell oath only searches for more lands anyways

I think this having instant speed is its only saving grace, we look at Ybargain 10 cards  for 10 life, thats a pretty good trade off, now lets look at this, while it costs 1 mana less its far less predictable, far less! For example while drawing 10 cards off YBargain is not uncommon, now  drawing 10 cards off Nauseam (even using the low average CC of TPS at 1.65) it would be roughly around 16 damage for 10 cards, and like Tin_mox said your useing quality resources like dark rit/cabal rit so you can draw more rits, if you use 2 cards to cast Nauseam and draw 10 cards, its like drawing 7, 1 card is like drawing only 8,  it would seem more likely that one will end up drawing 5 - 6 cards more often then not, for around 10 life, and drawing into more Nauseam's would be really bad synergy since I doubt you are going to want to cast it more then once a game and it hits you for 5 if you reveal a Nauseam off a Nauseam

and with the anti-library search artifact they will be playing shop too!

Looks powerful, but ew I mean 5 mana at end of turn?  I cant see any deck running more then 1 or 2 of these anyways, it would be a terrible draw early game, but I agree is definitely a bomb before going off, though hitting a force, colossus, desire, or tendrils of it would be bad, but no worse then risking it all with bob really

agreed, man this set is coming up milhouse!

I like the synergy with ghost quarter as well, This also shuts down Tezzeret!

intercontinental ballistic missile is almost as good of a team name! ahaha



Decent read, ALOT of deck lists, so many numbers !