What I think is that you are including jace and cobra in any deck. These cards are not made for ritual combo, they work perfect in other decks, but playing them here is ridiculous. You are not taking their full power, because of the cards you play with them. Is like playing a zoo creature base with fact or fiction and the full moxen.

A hand with 2 rituals, a jace and a cobra can be an example of what I mean. This is an instant mulligan you have ate least 2 dead cards no matter where your line of play goes. If you play with the cobra and jace gameplan, you have 2 dead rituals in your hand. If you play with the explosiveness of the rituals, jace and cobra have nothing to do there.

A deck cannot be created just by having all the good cards, they should work together, should have sinergy.

This built with cobras and jaces is totally different from TTS. You are playing jace, which is a great control card, but with it you are playing for a mid-long game. The same for LoA. Cobras aren´t needed here, they generate tons of mana, but you are not using them for anything. That list is a mix of explosive cards and mid-late game cards, I do not think that is the way TTS should take.

Also drawing cobras should be very frustating if you are trying to get spells and win. GATs mayor problem is that quirion dryad is a bad card that you do not want to draw. Cobra and dryad have the same problem, if they are not in your opening hand they are absolute junk.

2 Weeks ago took place in Madrid the Eternal Weekend, around 150 players. Inazio Madariaga made top 8 with the following list:

4 Dark Ritual
1 Doomsday
1 Necropotence
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
1 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Preordain
2 See Beyond
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island

I played the same list, but Inazio had oath plan sideboard. We did not play bargain or off-color moxes, cabal ritual is also out. Timetwister was tested, but did not have great sinergy with gush. The gameplan with this version is very simple, just play gush, some cantrips, 1 or 2 rituals and cast tendrills. Maybe a second doomsday is needed, on this deck it is awsome. Necro is a great card, but not as great as in regular TPS builds, we are considering taking it out. Gush + See beyond is an obvious play that lets you dig 4 cards and getting away an extra land.

Playing frantic search and gush on the same deck is a big mistake, both cards have no sinergy together. With frantic you want 3 lands in play and gush brings them back to your hand.

I also think lotus cobra and coatl are both the worst cards you can draw in this deck.

Hi I am Josu Apraiz, the one who played Fowchorid at Badalona. I´ve been playing without dread return for the last year and a half, and my experience has been very succesfull. As I said earlier on this post, in my opinion, in the 90% of the situations the dread return kill is a win more. Without it on the maindeck, you have a lot of free space for more disruptio, in my case FoW. Another thing that I have see playing with dread, is that people trend to force the dredging in order to win with the return. This usualy is not a problem, but if you do not find the combo pieces, you have all your deck exposed to a tormod´s cryot or similar graveyard disruption.

Speaking about new cards which could be played on ichorid decks, I am currently testing fatestitcher and it seems ok, but don´t know if he will gain some slots. Another interesting cards coul be     dregscape zombie as aresponse to extirpate. In Spain extirpate reigns in all sides, everybody who plays black has at least 3 of them on their sides. This guy can make the additional damage required after an extirpate on our bridges or ichorids. I know he only hits one time, but he has some advantages compared to ashen ghoul or nether shadow. The first one is obvious, he can reach the table in our main phase, not only in tha upkeep step. He hits for 2, ghoul for 3, and he doesn´t need to have creatures with him in graveyard. Another option could be hardcasting him from hand, in that case he can be realy good, hiting for 2, sacked for therapy, giving us tokens and then coming back for the last hit.The main disadvantage is that he disappears after the turn he comes into play from graveyard.

I don´t agree with this. Please count the games on which you win dred returning a a Zealot and you would also have won next turn attacking with ichorid and zombis. Maybe a 5% (this could be too high) of the games you win dread returning could be lost without it. In my opinion is much better to have real good cards in your hand (Unmask, FoW, whatever) than having on your starting hand cards like dread return, angel, sage or zealot. If you open with a bazar, activate, and you have dredgers, ichorids and dreads in hand, what is the best to discard? For sure dredgers and ichorids, but if your bazar gets wasted your second turn will be incredible stupid, just having some dead cards on your hand you cannot discard.

I think that disruption like Unmask, chalices, leylines, FoWs, or even Duress o Tgz win more games in ichorid than the games that dread return wins. Not to mention the waste of therapies naming FoW or Drain to ensure that the dread return is played. If you waste 2 therapies naming counters to get a sage into play and have bad dredges without  finding the combo to win that turn, you have high probabilities of losing that game, because you haven´t disrupt opponents game development by naming his draw engine or his responses to your game plan. The great advantage of ichorid is that you do not have to worry about countermagic and with the combo you are wasting that advantage.

How many of you side out the combo in games 2 or 3? So why do you still play with it maindeck? Without the combo 1st game winning percentage is more or less the same.

Yes, I have cut ancestral because of misdirection. It could be great to dredge 3 cards for U, but it can be to risky. I have also tested Time Walk, but as a single card without any tutor I didn´t like it.
Now Im testing deep analysis and it works great, the problem with this list is that if you open via breakthrough or careful study, the next turns you are only going to dredge via draw step (if you don´t have coliseum). Deep Analysis resolves this problem quite good, the 1U can be paid without problems (except against wastelands or spheres) and gives you the final boost to win the game. It also pitches to FoW, increasing the cards you don´t mind to pitch, like moebas in your hand, because dredging you can find very easy the second one.

I have also tested Drowned Rusalka as an aditional discard-dredge engine and token generator, but paying U for the sacrifice made it too slow. The same thing for Thoughtpicker Witch.

It is almost the same deck, I don´t think it should have a separate thread. Thanks for your comment.

@Elfrago: I don´t play with return anymore because in my opinion it is a win more. At least 5 main slots for only a 1 turn earlier win on games that you are going to win with the tokens and ichorids. I think it is better to have more disruption for those games that are more dificult than having dead cards on games that you are going to win anyway. Extirpate could be a problem, but we have maindeck mana, so we can hardcast Putrid Imp, or Stinkweed Imp, or Golgari thug, or even moebas, I know it is not the best plan, but I have won some matches attacking with this guys.

I know that this post is about Manales Ichorid, but I also would want to talk about the mana version. I´ve been playing ichorid for 2 years, starting with meadberts list with Gigapede and sutured ghoul and nowadays I´m playing with the following mana version.

Fowchorid

4 Force of Will
4 Cabal therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from below
4 Putrid imp
4 Golgari grave-troll
4 Stinkweed imp
3 Golgari thug
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful study
4 Bazaar of baghdad
4 Cephalid coliseum
3 City of brass
2 Gemstone mine
1 Black lotus
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox jet
1 Lotus petal

Side

4 Chain of vapor
3 Pithing needle
3 Tormod´s crypt
2  Contagion
3 Emerald charm


With this list I made Top17 in Apocalypse in Piacenza, a 180 men tournament in Italy, with a 5-1-1 and the same points as top16. In my opinion this build has some advantages with the manaless one. First of all the mulligan ratio is the same as in any other convencional deck like GAT, MUD, etc, which makes allmost imposible going to mulligan into oblion. Apparently it kills slower than manales, but in fact you can make quicker wins because of brekthrough. On this build I played FoW instead of Unmask because of the high number of blue cards on it, and it worked reallly great, countering a lot of cards during the torunament.

The disadvantages with manaless are that in lots of games you have to play spells, so your opponent can counter them, but most of the people do not counter a putrid imp or a crefull study. Brekthrough is a must counter, because it is obvious that if it resolves ichorid wins. This evrsion has a first game lower victory ratio, but side games vistory ratio increases a lot. You do not have to side in lands, so you have more slots in your sideboard. Playing again with needle on ichorid is great against tormods crypt, wasteland and MUD.

So, what dou you think about mana ichorid?

have anyone of you consider to drop the combo out of the deck? I´m playing ichorid since I discovered it on the starcity forums,  before moebas and bridges, and I think that thanks to the bridge the dread combo is not needed anymore. Almost everytime I killed with the combo I realized that I would have also won without it. Now when I play ichorid I don´t play with returns, wining a lot of extra space for more disruption. Here is the list that I played some months ago wining a Timetwister (1st calsificate without P9) and a Black Lotus (winner):

4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 City of Brass
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge

Side

3 Gemstone Mine
3 Emerald Charm
3 Contagion
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor

Today I would drop the wraiths for some aditional disruption, maybe duress/thoughseize, and 1 city for Mox Jet. When people face ichorid they usually mulligan into a hand that gives them options to win fast, without thinking in ichorids disruption. Opening with duress and therapy or unmask and therapy (much easier) can be really huge. Also the maindeck chain and grudge help in a platinum full meta, which was at that time. in todays meta it could be better adding petrifeid field.

My latest versions are evolving into a mana stile ichorid, obviously slower, but  more stable and not that much dependant on bazaar. 

And wht have cut to run such a disruption package? I´m testing the deck and now I´m running 4 Fow, 3 Drain, 3 Duress and 2 Misidis. I would like to run the 4th drain, but don´t know what to take out. I also have a maindeck Fact, which is huge after draining and tutored with scroll.

I don´t think that creatures should be a big problem. Adding thoughtseizes for duress could be a solution, but I have tested a build with 3/3 and they didn´t seem better than duress. It´s obvious that in certain pairing thoughtseize is better than duress, but in general I prefer duress. Maybe the 1st game against aggro decks can be problematic, because thier guys are for sure bigger than ours, but with bouncer on the table you can bounce the bigger ones and try to get them countered. On the 2nd and 3rd game flametongue kavu combined with bouncer gives us the victory. But if your meta is full of creatures sower of temptaion seems to be the best solution.

I also don´t think that cutting reb for spell snare is a good idea. Except for stax it is incredible against all other matchups. Against fish you can counter a high percentage of their spells or destroy their meddling mages. In other nmatchups it seems better than spell snare, with a reb you can let merchant resolve and then counter the merchant target. Reb also helps in counter wars hitting fow or drain, or countering a brainstorm or a tinker, it is mucho more versatil. I´m not saying that spell snare is bad,  it is a good counter and maybe it should be increased in number in the deck, but for sure not for reb.

I was thinking about adding 4 thorn to the main, but I wasn´t sure about them. The worst thing about them is that agaisnt aggro decks they are dead cards. In this deck you can drop them on the first turn very easy, or begin with confidant and then cast them on the second turn. With thorns, chalices, shaman and strip effects the deck is some kind of pseudo-stax, but with an incredible drawing engine, I´m going to test them and see if they work. What have you cut for them? Maybe reds and 1 duress? Isn´the 2 CMC too satturated?

In my opinion the best you can play against stax is a combination of welder and shaman. With the new 9-spheres aggro workshops decks the vandal seems to be a bad solution. The only problem with the welder-shaman is that they expend more slots in the deck.

In the UR versión have you think in Wee Dragonauts? They are faerie wizard, and can hit for a considerable amount of damage. Maybe adding this guys needs to replace the vials for a cheap blue instant like opt or ponder as a sorcery. Maybe quiting some creatures, like the sage or just decreasing its number, could find some room for them. They would also pump spellstutter as a better counter and speed up  decks clock.

Hi, I´ve testing URBana for a couple of moths with some changes, here is my list.

Mana 24
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Volcanic
3 Usea
1 Badlands
4 mox
1 lotus
1 Lotus Petal
 
4 force
3 chalice
3 duress
3 REB
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral

4 Dark Confidant
4 Ninja
3 Mox Monkey
3 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Mogg Fanatic

On my testing I have found mogg fanatic very usefull on a meta with lots of fishes and bobs. The rest of the list is similar to the “standard” list, except for the lotus petal instead of pearl. The petal fixin mana on the first turns has been very important for me.

With Lorwyn I think there are 2 possible inclusions in the deck: Thoughtseize and Spellstutter Sprite. The first one increases the disruption in the deck, assuring a turn 1 or 2  “duress”, and the second one is somekind of recurring disruption with ninja, which also hits for one over the air. It could be:

-2 Spell Snare
-3 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Mana Leak

Adding Thoughtseize gives us a better flash pairing, because discarding protean hulk in the first turn could be great. It also helps against fish and GAT. The sprite must be tested, I don´t know if it will work well, but seems to be a good turn one countering opponents moxes or lotus and then attacking to get a ninja in play.

What do you think about these additions?

What do you think about adding Spellstutter Sprite to URBana Fish?

Spellstutter Sprite 1U
Creature - Faerie Wizard - Common
Flash
Flying
When Spellstutter Sprite comes into play, counter target spell with converted mana cost X or less, where X is the number of Faeries you control.

It seems like a good turn 1 on the play, land mox with this in hand, waiting for opponents moxes or lotus, with a ninja in hand prepared to draw. With the ninja it is more or less a counter with buyback. In the late game it can be pitched to fow or can counter reb, spell snare, fatbond or ancestral, or if you have one in play and you draw another it becomes a better counter.

In my opinion spell snare is one of the best options for side in fish. As said it helps against flsh, oath and mirror. Against GroAtog it is huge, it prevents you from the dryads and countering a merchant scroll is one of the best things you can do.

I don´t know why in the US sides (I am spanish) people don´t include honor the fallen against ichorid. I think it is better than leyline, because you don´t have to mulligan until you find it, you can just tutor or draw it. Once played it lets ichorid decks allmost destroyed, without dredgers and normally without bazaar because of oru strip effects. This situation forces them to wait till they have 8 cards in hand, which allows us to search for another honor or win the game.

I am also testing children of korlis in the main. They are a very good option against combo (what I suppose is going to rule in the new metagame) and also help against oath and darksteel colossus giving you one or 2 turns extra to find a sollution.

What do you think?