URBana Fish--The Solution to the metagame

[Tiki Walker]

what ideas are there for fighting against the goblin match-up.  i've been testing it and been getting absolutely smashed game after game.  it seem goblins just has infinite gas against my smaller creatures

Hello, there, wierdmtg13.

If you would like to have an edge against the goblin matchup, maybe you would like to consider testing some Engineered Plagues on your URB? Some modifications can be arranged to accomodate the plagues in the main or sideboard, depending how often are you likely to face the matchup. Engineered Plagues are quite helpful to help the goblin matchups in 1.5, and we have our counters to help keeping our plagues in play.

Hope that helps.

Thank you.

[MirariKnight]

Usually by the time you drop a Plague it's way too late. It's good in Legacy but I can't see Plague being a good answer to Goblins in Vintage. Fanatics of your own seem like the would be a good play (stops Lackey, blocks Piledriver, good vs Flash, kills Dryads sort of too), and if you're REALLY worried about Goblins maybe board BEBs? I guess they don't help with Vial but they seem like they would be pretty decent in that matchup where a lot of your maindeck would kinda suck (Control Magic for example is really bad against Goblins imo).

[Dr_Tongue]

BEB can't target the Piledriver which in many cases is the nail in your coffin. Engineered Plague can be dropped very quickly with moxen actually, so I fail to see how it is slow. It can also be used vs. Slivers in conjunction with the REB's -Leyline post board vs. Flash.
I'm fond of E. Plague as it also was an answer to Oath in my combo deck I liked to play(spirits) , and can be used to keep a host of other problamatic creatures off the board or -manageable-. It's useful vs. Wizard/Human in Bomberman as well.

Go 0/1 piledriver, Go!

[MirariKnight]

BEB can counter the Piledriver still.
But the problem that I see is that even with E Plague you get something like Turn 1 Lackey into Seige Gang, Turn 2 Vial, Warchief, Turn 3 assload of Piledrivers or something, E Plague isn't that helpful, not to mention the mana denial Goblins runs. It can reliably come out 2nd turn at best I think, but just like in Legacy the best way to beat Goblins is imo having an answer to a)Turn 1 Lackey (BEB, Mogg Fanatic or something similar, just FoW isn't enough) and b) Aether Vial. I really don't know what the best way to stop Vial is (Null Rod? but that would be pretty useless otherwise, maybe Stifle, since it also hits Lackey, Seige Gang, I think it hits Piledriver's pump ability but I'm not sure how pro blue works on that).

Edit: Forgot Needle is really good too for Vial or Wasteland.

[LordHomerCat]

EPlague would seem like your best shot to beat goblins, as your creatures seem mostly awful against them if they do anything at all (cough gorilla shaman).  Like, in Legacy, you have to run Jitte and Plague to really have a reasonable shot against them, and they don't have power (or recruiter if they want) to power out faster warchiefs.  I don't really see trying to go card-for-card against a creature deck when your main draw engines are ninja with no evasion and bob with 1 toughness.  It seems like you have to play dirty (that is, running plague) or else they have better guys, more guys, tutorable card draw, and access to some powerful disruption in wasteland against your 3color deck.

If you are worried about some insane turn 1 lackey into SGC draw, well, you have like 7+ one-drops you can block, plus force of will, plus your two-drops if you are on the play.  Lackey is good and all, but if they get to do all that stuff and all you can do is sit there for 2 turns and then cast plague, your hand was terrible and you weren't winning anyway.

[Moxlotus]

Just lose to Goblins.  Seriously.  You can do everything you want to bastardize the maindeck and/or sideboard but you won't get above 50/50.  And to go from a terrible matchup to a match that's still not good, you are going to cost yourself in the GAT and Flash matchups.  As Shockwave said about Landstill against Oshawa Stompy 5 years ago--I'll be damned if I bastardize my URBAna sideboard for the Goblins matchup.

[wierdmtg13]

what seems better in the meta right now, Leyline of the Void or Extirpate?  I've been debating these for sometime and have played both in a UBW fish build.  Both have their strengths and weaknesses.  Leyline has a higher cc so not as good w/ Bob and not that good if not in opening hand.  At this point im thinking of bringing in the choice out of the board b/c my main deck is pretty set in stone to my likings at the moment.

P.S. thanks for the comments on the goblins match-up

[Moxlotus]

Leyline of the Void clearly.  Extirpate does nothing against Flash.

[Tiki Walker]

Just lose to Goblins.  Seriously.  You can do everything you want to bastardize the maindeck and/or sideboard but you won't get above 50/50.  And to go from a terrible matchup to a match that's still not good, you are going to cost yourself in the GAT and Flash matchups.  As Shockwave said about Landstill against Oshawa Stompy 5 years ago--I'll be damned if I bastardize my URBAna sideboard for the Goblins matchup.

Agreed. Honestly goblin matchup in general is not what the original deck was aimed to fix. In a large tourney there is quite some probability that there could be some players playing with Goblin decks, it is to be expected. URB is not geared to beat Goblin decks in the first place. If the environment is infested by a lot of Goblins, then one thing for sure we can change our deck of choice for that environment to adapt.

Thank you.

[Oedipus]

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but, since Colossus has seen little play recently and Oath isn't that big and now GAT has exploded shouldn't Threads of Disloyalty be played over Control Magic?

Please read the thread.  It is only 3 pages.  There has been a lot of discussion on Control Magic v. Threads of disloyalty.

-Moxlotus

[ErkBek]

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but, since Colossus has seen little play recently and Oath isn't that big and now GAT has exploded shouldn't Threads of Disloyalty be played over Control Magic?

No. Obviously you aren't interested in the deck otherwise you would have read the 2.5 pages about it. Next time use try Ctrl + F Threads. k thanks

[islanderboi10]

Other than goblins, what really beats this deck??

Anyone have a solid sideboard for goblins? What about Slice and Dice in the board?

Maybe some for of mass removal is needed.  Damnation!!! Jk Jk.


But seriously, anyone have ideas for the goblin match up?

EDIT:
SB
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Fire/Ice
3 Rack and/or Ruin
2 Red Blast
4 Leyline of the Void

I like Fire/Ice because of its ability to hit small dudes,such as goblins...and multiples... but again they could by anything.

Any suggestions?

Maybe even a card like Propaganda or something could make the deck?

Hmm another idea could be like...Infest or Hideous Laughter or something like that.

The double black would be hard to get, though.

EDIT AGAIN:

Ok so why not run Pyroclasms in the board?  I know it wrecks you too, but still, its an answer to goblins.

[LordHomerCat]

If you're looking for a card for specifically goblins, run Engineered Plague.  Two plagues should end the game 99% of the time, and one is likely still stronger than clasming your whole deck away.

[Moxlotus]

Just lose to Goblins.  Seriously.  You can do everything you want to bastardize the maindeck and/or sideboard but you won't get above 50/50.  And to go from a terrible matchup to a match that's still not good, you are going to cost yourself in the GAT and Flash matchups.  As Shockwave said about Landstill against Oshawa Stompy 5 years ago--I'll be damned if I bastardize my URBAna sideboard for the Goblins matchup.

Read Mike Flores article from last friday on how to build a sideboard that isn't embarassing.  It runs the numbers on how good you have to make your post side games to make up for the % win in your game 1.  You will have to find a way to make your game 2 and 3 80%+ for it to be worth it.  That's not going to happen.  And at the same time you will watch as your GAT and Flash matches go from favorable to even or even unfavorable postboard. 

[wierdmtg13]

i did some testing against goblins which included pyroclasm, propagandas, and engineered plagues.  with pyroclasm wrecks you also or they still have gas in their hand when playing around it.  either way preventing you from winning because they can topdeck into gas more consistently than URbana fish.  with propaganda they sit there and build up and army of guys that you will never smash through.  all the while eating away at your life, ever so slowly but still life loss is there, and at some point they get a bunch of guys that dont attack and then become blockers to your dudes who dont have evasion.  thus you losing to overwhelming goblins that come over a few at a time.  just delaying the inevitable.  the best bet is plague but it isnt that great.  your clock just isnt fast enough usually to just out race -1/-1ed goblins.  so as some one said earlier in the thread, just lose to goblins and smash everything else.  thats my game plan for the moment.

[islanderboi10]

i did some testing against goblins which included pyroclasm, propagandas, and engineered plagues.  with pyroclasm wrecks you also or they still have gas in their hand when playing around it.  either way preventing you from winning because they can topdeck into gas more consistently than URbana fish.  with propaganda they sit there and build up and army of guys that you will never smash through.  all the while eating away at your life, ever so slowly but still life loss is there, and at some point they get a bunch of guys that dont attack and then become blockers to your dudes who dont have evasion.  thus you losing to overwhelming goblins that come over a few at a time.  just delaying the inevitable.  the best bet is plague but it isnt that great.  your clock just isnt fast enough usually to just out race -1/-1ed goblins.  so as some one said earlier in the thread, just lose to goblins and smash everything else.  thats my game plan for the moment.

Hmm well what does your sideboard look like?

This is my current one:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Pyroblast
3 Open Slots...(was engineered Plague for testing.)


What should those slots be?
I was thinking Extripate, Stifle, Trickbind, or something.

maybe to deal with combo better?
I dont know...

And do you think I could see your list?

Thanks.

[Nantuko]

Anybody play URBana at GENCON??
What list play?

[Pitlord]

A friend of mine played URBana Fish at GenCon, going 3-3 drop.

He played a list he worked on seperately from the list in this thread, and I think he made some sup-optimal maindeck choices, such as only 2 ninja, and the addition of 3 Cutpurse, and no maindeck control magic/threads.

One thing that he commented on after playing the rounds he did and some more games at our hotel, is that sideboarding something else against Flash might be needed. He lost a suprisingly high number of games against flash, even when he had leyline and 1 or 2 counters. Trickbind came up as a potential answer, and we are testing it in both the main and the board now.

[ErkBek]

I've got a new list of URBana fish for the post-gencon metagame and what I think would be best for SCG Indy (which I won't the attending). I don't want to post it for everyone to see, cause that blows part of the advantage of it being rogue for those that may end up playing it. So if you are interested in my current list, shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to send it to you.

[Nantuko]

Nobody thinks that Grim Lavamancer was a great choice for this deck?

[ErkBek]

Nobody thinks that Grim Lavamancer was a great choice for this deck?

I haven't tested Lavamancer in ages, please explain why you think he's better than lavamancer, I'm listening.

[hitman]

With what's already being played, I can't see Lavamancer doing much.  A summoning sick Lavamancer doesn't kill a Dryad or a Tarmogoyf.  These creatures are the most likely threats you will face outside of Goblins.  I honestly think Goblins are going to see little play because Gush Tendrils and Gifts are being tweaked and rebuilt and will shove Goblins out.  You have Bouncers for Dryads and Goyfs.  With all the disruption this deck packs, Tog can't rely on a Will turn and go broken so they will have to win incrementally.  That's hard to do when a bouncer's resolved and you're drawing double what they are.

[Nantuko]

Its possible that is a metagame election.
I play against a lot of Bomberman and fish and lavamancer is very good in this matchs(in my opinion).
Im not discussed that bouncer its beter against GAT but for different things at this moment I dont see a lot of GAT in my place,but I think I see in the future so I test.

Sorry for my English one more time

[ErkBek]

Its possible that is a metagame election.
I play against a lot of Bomberman and fish and lavamancer is very good in this matchs(in my opinion).
Im not discussed that bouncer its beter against GAT but for different things at this moment I dont see a lot of GAT in my place,but I think I see in the future so I test.

I've found Bouncer combined with Flametongue Kavu simply enough to win fish mirror and the bomberman match. I see no reason to spend extra maindeck slots for matchups I'm already winning, when they could be used against the top tier decks.

Sorry for my English one more time

Your english is good, don't worry about it.

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1772684

[Negator]

Hi!

This decks seems to be really cool. I thought about Phyrexian Dreadnought and stifle. Isn't it possible to make room for them?

2 Phyrexian
3 Stifle

It will improve the goblin matchup and speed up the clock.

It should be really funny to kill your opponent with à 12/12 in a fish deck!

[Moxlotus]

Hi!

This decks seems to be really cool. I thought about Phyrexian Dreadnought and stifle. Isn't it possible to make room for them?

2 Phyrexian
3 Stifle

It will improve the goblin matchup and speed up the clock.

It should be really funny to kill your opponent with à 12/12 in a fish deck!

The deck doesn't have room for cute tricks like this.  Dreadnoughts are completely dead without the Stifles.  When playign with underpowered, yet synergistic cards like URBana, every draw counts.  You can't have stuff that is worthless.  If you're worried about Goblins play something else.  This deck simply can't and never will be able to have an even match against Goblins without completely punting the other matchups.  If you play with the deck a few dozen times you will see how its gameplan unfolds and how it can't support something like Stifle+Naught.

[saradoc]

What do you think about adding Spellstutter Sprite to URBana Fish?

Spellstutter Sprite 1U
Creature - Faerie Wizard - Common
Flash
Flying
When Spellstutter Sprite comes into play, counter target spell with converted mana cost X or less, where X is the number of Faeries you control.

It seems like a good turn 1 on the play, land mox with this in hand, waiting for opponents moxes or lotus, with a ninja in hand prepared to draw. With the ninja it is more or less a counter with buyback. In the late game it can be pitched to fow or can counter reb, spell snare, fatbond or ancestral, or if you have one in play and you draw another it becomes a better counter.

[GUnit]

My question is: what do you cut for it? I'm happy with my bouncers, as they handle randomness well and they are strong against shop aggro, fish variants and GAT, and similarly I'm happy with my mix of fanatic (0-2).Shaman(2-4), which I couldn't see myself replacing with an objectively weaker, more circumstantial and entirely reactive card. I guess you could cut cards like daze for this dude, but the point of daze isn't that you force spike something... it's that you force spike something while you're tapped out.

[Guli]

After quickly reading through your matches i notices you are siding in needle almost every time. I suggest you move them to main deck. Logical move in my opinion.

Needle has become pretty broad in my opinion.

[Dante]

After quickly reading through your matches i notices you are siding in needle almost every time. I suggest you move them to main deck. Logical move in my opinion.

Needle has become pretty broad in my opinion.

Except you aren't going to side in needle against GAT, Empty Gifts, Ritual combo, or Flash - which comprise a significant amount of the competitive metagame.  You're going to bring it in vs Stax and Ichorid.