Well, first of all I am thankful for people starting from my list and improving it. The changes you mention are interesting. I wish these people would have done a bit better. Please give my best regards to these people.


With regard to Chrome Mox: I think if you take a decision based on your statement above, the decision might be wrong. Sure, Chrome Mox means card disadvantage. But first, the cost involved may be a redundant card which you may not need in the future match. Second, and more important, you appear to forget that there is not only a cost but also benefit. Essentially, you trade off tempo with card disadvantage.

The question is, if this is valuable enough for you. I for my part am very hesitant of taking them out. I am actually deliberating about going to three, taking out a student. And then also adding three Grafdigger's Cage instead of Dryad Militant. That does not help the aggro match ups. But it furthers the Dredge match up where Dryad does not shine so much. It also helps the control match ups insofar as it prevents tinkering up creatures. And finally, the combo match up is neither better nor worse, I think. Dryad is a pain in the ass for combo players (as I was told on during the tournament). But I guess Grafdigger's Cage's second clause is more than just a nuisance as well.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I certainly have considered Cavern of Souls. But I found the number of plains much to low for the Abolishs in the sideboard. And these are my solution for an opposing Chalice with two charge counters. I do have a Christmas Beatings list with Chalice, Cavern, and Vexing Shusher, however.

The suggestion of Sky Hussar is golden because I would have never stumbled across the card. For now, I am sceptical though. As a White Trash player, I rarely have more than three creatures on the board one of which is often Revoker. But these creatures attack which renders the forecast ability of Sky Hussar unusable. If one plays more white creatures, one risks overextending. If I play more, I am almost certain to win next round with the additional beats. But I like to try the Hussar especially in the aggro match ups. Thanks again.

Dear TMDers!

Just as last year, a group of friends and me travelled from Berlin (Germany) to Hanau (also Germany) where at the end of each year a vintage tournament is organized next to other formats. Instead of last year’s 63 players, only 38 competitors gathered. (The vintage format seems to be in some kind of vicious circle. I feels as if it is drying up.)

I registered with the very same “White Trash” list, which I maneuvered last year to a perhaps surprising 4:2 (see here and the following posts). I simply didn’t have the time to bring myself up to speed regarding vintage and to be innovative. Here it is:

Maindeck:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Dryad Militant
3 Student of Warfare

3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Path to Exile

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

13 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Chrome Mox

Sideboard:

1 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
4 Abolish

Unfortunately, I appear to have thrown away all my notes. So I am very sorry to mess with important details or mix up the names of my opponents, who have all been exceptionally nice. So, here is only a short and sketchy version of how I fared in the six rounds of vintage:

Round 1: against MUD (Patrick)

He wins the die roll, immediately mulls to six, does not look too enthusiastic about his hand. Not knowing what deck my opponent plays, I keep a reasonable seven with a Wasteland, two Plains, and some two-drop critters. He starts by playing an Ancient Tomb and a Grim Monolith. Given nothing else, I waste his sol land. He proceeds with Strip Mine into the horrible Lodestone Golem. I play a Plains. He looks confused. The golem is joined by another sol land and a Thorn of Amethyst and the golem delivers the beats. I accumulate mana for another round, but he appears to be out of gas. Luckily he does not strip one of my two plains and waited for something more worthwhile. I am at 5, play a Karakas and a hungry Leonin-Relic Warder dismantles the golem. Thalia and the cat take the game from there.

In game two he opens with a sol land into Sphere of Resistance. I waste the sol land. He continues with Mishra’s Workshop into the second sphere. I strip the Workshop. He is locked for now. I accumulate mana. His mana is soon tied down by a Stony Silence. I avoid playing my Kataki, War’s Wage. Beats by a student and a cat are enough to bring this game home.

That’s 1:0 (2:0)


Round 2: against some combo deck (Joseph)

I do not remember much of this match anymore. In the first game, I put down a first turn Thalia, Guardian of Thraben with the help of a Chrome Mox (discard Student of Warfare). He plays a Polluted Delta. I’ll test the waters with a Leonin Arbiter who meets Force of Will. But I soon manage to play a stony silence and a second anti-search creature. He scoops. So, I put him on some combo deck.

In game two, he plays a first turn Necropotence, goes from 20 life to 12 and 8 in his turn afterwards. I manage to beat him down to 4 life but eventually the lock is not hard enough and he easily takes my life with a Tendrils of Agony off a 8ish Mind’s Desire.

Game three is lock and beatdown mode again. I manage to take home the win, but do not remember much else.

That’s 2:0 (4:1)


Round 3: against Doomsday (Tobias)

Tobias and me apparently get paired every year and so he was already smiling when I came to the table. “Combo again, Tobi?” “Some new form of fringe Deck, Sven?” Anyway, naturally he wins the die roll and I mulligan to six. Tobi starts with a Polluted Delta, Mox (Jet?) and an Ancestral Recall. Well, thanks for reminding me what White Trash cannot do, Tobi. I proceed with a Plains and ship the turn back to him which is also the time where he combos me out with Doomsday and Laboratory Maniac. Oh Path to Exile! Where have you been?

The second game evolves differently. I bring some lock components to the board and beat him down to two life. So, in his characteristic sympathetic and calm fashion Tobi says: “Hm, either now or never. So far I only have a storm count of eight. Let’s see what happens. There is every reason to make this gamble”. Well, it turned out to be very fine… But it was the nicest match so far. Always a pleasure, Tobias! Still undefeated but I’ll go for your throat next year!

That’s 2:1 (4:3)


Round 4: against Painter Grindstone (Jiri)

Similar to our group from Berlin, there is a group of Czech players every year and Jiri is one of them. It turns out, Jiri plays blue-red Painter Grindstone. I do not remember everything but Kataki pretty much seals the deal in game one when Jiri had two Seat of the Synod, a Grind Stone, and a Sensei’s Divining Top.

During the second game, I successfully cast one of the stony silences after Phyrexian Revokers, Kataki and Thalia get countered. From there it was only a matter of time to be faster than Jiri finds a bounce spell.

That’s 3:1 (6:3)


Round 5: against Steel City Vault (Ralf)

I also met Ralf before. But we have not been sure what we have been playing; probably Tezzeret versus Christmas Beatings. The first game -- which Ralf starts -- is finished relatively fast after his Ancestral Recall on my first end step. He proceeds in his second turn with some stuff (Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Time Walk), plays Jace and goes from there with a 6ish Minds Desire which finally assembles the key vault combo after some intense tutoring.

In stark contrast, I control the second game in a more or less dominant fashion with Stony Silence, Thalia and a level 7 Student of Warfare who convincingly delivers the final beats.

Now the final game was intense and I was too excited about the 4:1 prospect. I made a couple of minor errors. Being a good guy, Ralf just reminded me to do this properly and did not get upset. But here is a major misstep. I had three Plains and a Ghost Quarter and wanted to play Thalia and a Leonin Relic-Warder, while knowing that Ralf did not have any more counter spells. But, oh well, I played Thalia by tapping two Plains and then wanted to play the cat with the mana left. I had all worked out in my mind and was convinced to win. But this mistake lead to a eventually tinkered-up Blightsteel Colossus, which was eaten by the aforementioned cat instead of a Sol Ring. I had Ralf on six life and he would have died next turn but he found the Echoing Truth, played it on my end step. So the colossus came for visit while I had no blockers…

That’s 3:2 (7:5)


Round 6: against BUG Fish (Marcus)

Well, White Thrash does not like fish style decks. BUG Fish is certainly no exception. In the first game, I manage to beat Marcus down to 6 life and then he stabilizes. And he clearly dominates the second game as well. Nothing more to say. (I also don’t remember a lot apart from True-Name Nemesis, Deathrite Shamans, and a lonely Trygon Predator dominating the sky.)

Final result: 3:3 (7:7).

Usually, I play rarely more than once a year and I made quite some embarrassing mistakes, which might have cost me at least one game. Simple things really that are just a matter of practice. And a deck like this is not forgiving when even small mistakes are concerned. But this separated the “boy from the man” and who knows what I would have faced if I had won against Ralf in round 5.

However, I like playing this list for the simple reason that I have so much fun with it. During the last round, a spectating fellow tournament participant mumbled something like: “Was that a ghost quarter? Who plays ghost quarters in vintage?” And I answered: “Well, as far as I remember you played Demon Oath last year and I crushed you 2:0”. This lead to a heartily laugh from the other spectators, some of which I had played earlier this day. And the young chap smiled too, admitting last year’s defeat.

And if you may enjoy being “the guy that plays basic plains” at a vintage tournament, you should give it a try.

Still, the deck does not feel to be at its full potential. It feels to be at disadvantage against fish-style decks. I am not sold on the Dryad Arbor. However, I do not see another one-drop that might take the spot in Vintage. I am also contemplating fitting in 4 Chalice of the Void. I do not know yet and any suggestion is more than welcome.

I am also wondering if this threat belongs in the “creative” section. It is more like “null rod based aggro”. And in the latter, TMWA and Christmas Beatings are discussed which are quite comparable to this deck, I think. What do you think?

EDIT: spelling and grammar mistakes (there are certainly more in there)

Please don't necro old threads - start new ones.
-Godder

Stony and Revoker (and partly Kataki) do overlap to a certain degree. No doubt about that. There are, however, two reasons why I would never cut Revoker -- one very subjective and one more technical. Let's start with the perhaps unrational subjective one: I want my mana denial badly. I want it despite counters or removal spells -- especially in a deck without library manipulation and protective measures. Therefore I am happy with an insane number of said cards. Stony and Revoker make 6 cards altogether (wihtout taking Kataki into account because I think he interacts differently). That's the same number as the anti-search engine (Leonin Arbiter and Avend Mindcensor) and, in my opinion, you should never cut the latter by any amount. Very subjective personal experience tells me that 6 is a good number...

Anyway, this argument might not be convincing enough. But here is where Revoker shines and Stony Silence as well as Kataki do not: Noble Hierarch, Grim Lavamancer, Deathrite Shaman ... and the like. Maybe these are fringe concerns at best. But as WT player, I am concerned about these cards.

I am happy to discuss further. It was the first time that I played White Trash and I would like to continue toying with it because it is just fun when people do joke about "the guy that brings plains to a tournament" and then you beat the crap out of these disrespective guys.

EDIT: You guys are quick... I forgot Welder, Jace, Griselbrand... anyway, I need to run to work now. Happy to see your replies!

Well, the reason is quite simple really. I did not have access to Grafdigger's Cage. This made four more slots available which I wanted to fill up with one-drops. I had only two Students in the list at this moment and added another. With three open slots I thought about upping some 3-ofs. However, I decided for an additional creature. I narrowed down to either Icatian Javelineers, Judge's Familiar, or the Dryad. Ultimately I went with the Dryad. I did not miss the other options all day. But Dryad turned out to be solid in one of the Demon-Oath matches (removing milled Noxious Revival) where I could not stick a Rest in Peace. The Dryad also created some more pressure against the Noble Fish Deck (although that did not help in the end).

Anyway, I am not sure if I would do it again. I consider the Dryad to fill up the flexible slots here.

By the way, I found myself frequently with Phyrexian Revoker not naming Jace but rather different moxen. I would never cut the machine. But this might be a question of personal play style.

EDIT: Bad English...

In the first Oath match I used mana denial aggressively. Taking out moxen with Pyrexian Revoker and stripping lands other than Orchard was key. By the time he could land an oath without me having the relic-warder or a path to exile, I had one arbiter, Thalia, a student and 4 spirit token that beat through a demon. This worked for both matches -- with revoker also taking out Jace in game two.

The second match involved the same strategy in game one but I even had answers to the Oath and Demon in hand when he scooped. The second game saw a first turn Orchard which was met by a first turn relic-warder (and a path in hand). Chrome Moxen have been awesome all day. The second oath was destroyed by a surprising Abolish just after he countered the Grand Abolisher for which I tapped all my mana.

The deck was extremely fun, especially when highly powered decks didn't stand a chance that day. However, I think that is not the rule but rather the exception. I am still debating dryad as a one-drop. The Student was superb because he does usually not get countered. I had the feeling he is not perceived as a threat. Usually I had mana available at some point every game and then could use it at least for incremental advantage.

I recently made (a perhaps unimpressive) 15th place at a 63 people tourney in Germany with this unpowered list:

Maindeck:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Dryad Militant
3 Student of Warfare
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Path to Exile

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

13 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Chrome Mox

Sideboard:
1 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Serenity
4 Abolish

I won against Mud 2-0, lost against UR Landstill 0-2, lost against Noble Fish 1-2, and then horribly crushed Demon Oath 2-0, Talrand Gush 2-0, and Demon Oath again 2-0.

Although I definitely made several erroneous plays I felt completely without any chance against UR Landstill. Noble Fish was a uphill battle but a very close and enjoyable game.

Decklist and sideboard can certainly be improved. Notably the student look awkward on paper. But he turned into a very relevant beater in lots of the games. The Dryads were unimpressive indeed. But I also had no dredge match up. And I did not miss other one-drops (e.g. Icatian Javelineers) either. This list is where I would start again in the future when I would be inclined to take an unpowered version to a tourney.

Hey Troy, I hope you don't mind if I am overly painstaking in this point. A second chalice is not only not dead. My point is that -- in combination with Shusher -- this play even becomes highly asymmetric and can then often be neck-breaking.

However, my small practical experience might screw this assessment.

As an aside, the sweet goblin shaman also helps with opposing chalices which I happen to run into whenever I go to a tourney (there may be a selection bias involved).

I am a very silent lurker on TMD but your recent inclusion of Vexing Shusher is enough reason to appear for a short moment at least.

I am playing Christmas Beatings since the primer was posted and from the very first moment have included shusher. Apart from his obvious qualities right now he additionally shines in combinaton with chalice. I have locked out many an opponent by playing chalice at 1 or 2 while still being able to cast through it with shusher. Naturally, this buys an extreme amount of time and complements the Magus strategy quite well (at least from my experience). Just wanted to point this (also rather obvious aspect) out.

/Fossy

Be greeted!

So far, I played a couple of games at a tourney against a field of mostly Flash, GAT and random fishstyle aggro. At the end I went 3 – 2 – 0. The two losses are due to heavy mistakes I made, which I’ll not present to you. You would call me “stupid idiot” otherwise. But now is now and I’ve learned from those mistakes. Anyway, I’m so lucky about your comments and your help and I’ll happily reply everything.

1st: Yes! This thing is far from being a tight and balanced deck as it’s not thoroughly practiced. Tangle Wire is already on my mind but since now hasn’t proven in testing. But from time to time I gave and will give it a new chance. I simply can’t figure out, why I’m so unhappy with it. I also must admit, that it might be better to go b/splash and cutting all those artefacts. But as the title states, this shall be a Workshop-NetherVoid-Deck, so I propose we try this until we all agree it’s senseless. I considered the combination of Workshop and Void the major aim of this thread.

2nd: Since now, playing Nether Void is rarely a problem. Neither the deck’s mana base nor opponent’s counterwall prevented getting it in play. Concerning the manabase, Void comes usually down turn two or three and Force of Will is usually already gone so far. If it’s still countered, then another thread comes through. But most of the time, it hits play.

3rd: I’ve to agree, that Gorilla Shaman deserves a spot in the list. As for now, I might cut the two Intuitions for him, as I was not at all lucky with them so far, although they seem good on paper. They can find lands for Crucible and artifacts for Welder.

4th: I’m absolutely settled on Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. It is so good every single time it hits the board. It enables a 2nd turn Nether Void, if you started with a Workshop and offcolor artefact mana. I can also play the additional costs of a Nether Void with a Workshop, when Urborg is in the game. And it synergizes with Sundering Titan, because he can take out one more land – despite destroying tapped (Orb of Dreams) fetchlands or wastelands, possibly destroying two islands for example has proven very strong. Of course it is to be considered a drawback, that Urborg gives black mana to my opponent. But that doesn’t worry me: If they play black, they can play their fast and most threatening spells (i.e. duress) anyway.

5th: Balance is a fantasic idea, I honestly didn’t think off. Due to the evolvement of the deck I never considered colours other then b/u/r. The rainbow manabase was the last step setting the “drawback” of Sundering Titan to zero.

For now I hope, I’ve answered all your questions and gave you the input, you wanted to hear. Please be patient with me for the Workshop/NetherVoid-Combination I’d be glad, if you’d stay on the discussion. Possibly and hopefully there’ll be more people to join us. If I finally adjust the list, I’ll do so in the very 1st post, because I feel, that always posting new lists ruins the clarity of the thread.

/Fossy

Hello Everybody,

I finally registered at TMD and this is my very first post, which aims to generate some input, feedback and perhaps guidance on a bunch of cards, I threw together lately calling it a Vintage-Deck. It was build around my very favourite card – Nether Void. I fell in love with that thing, when I was playing a b/g version of Suicide Black, only splashing green for Pernicious Deed. So, without further chattering, here is my Decklist.

Mana (27):
4x Mishra's Workshop
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Gemstone Mine
3x City of Brass
2x Gilded Lotus
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus
5x Moxen

Lock (15):
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Nethervoid
1x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Orb of Dreams

Utility & Tutoring & Draw(11):
4x Goblin Welder
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Intuition
1x Tinker

Kill (7):
1x Sundering Titan
1x Duplicant
2x Triskelion
1x Triskelavus
2x Karn, Silver Golem


Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Razormane Masticore
3x Eon Hub
2x Jester’s Cap
3x Phyrexian Totem
1x Orb of Dreams
1x Duplicant

As you all can see, this thing startet out as a kind of prison deck. Some of you might wonder, why there’s no Smokestack or even Braids. Well, this is due to a personal impression: I found Smokestack simply to slow, because it only starts to work on the opponent’s board 3 turns after casting. And that’s to late. Braids on the other hand was quite difficult to cast with BB. So far, I didn’t regret to have cut those two. Nethervoid paired with strip effects is already a tough and very solid lock, while smashing face with some artefact beatsticks. Some of you might find Orb of Dreams an odd choice. But from my limited experience, it’s insane in the current metagame. Flash in it’s Kiki-Jiki-variant (most common over here in Germany as far as I can tell) will not work, Ichorid or Dredge is slowed down tremendously an GAT has it’s problems when gushing an laying the lands down again without getting mana out. That’s it so far. The rest is quite self-explanatory. But questions are welcome and appreciated.

As far as the sideboard goes, it’s as always metagame dependant. Leyline is obvious. Eon Hub shuts down traditional Staxx and opposing Energy Fluxes. Phyrexian Totems are from my experience just nuts against Landstill and Staxx providing a fast kill. The rest are gap-fillers. By the way I don’t want to discuss the sideboard choices as they change from tourney to tourney anyway. Some hints, comments are and criticism is welcome though. Please just don’t focus on the sideboard please.

But in the end the Deck still does not feel right and I have come to the point, where I find it hard to go on on myself. Perhaps the Deck needs to be pushed more to the prison strategy or – the other way around – to the beatdown strategy. I’m kind of stuck and, to be honest, not open-minded anymore. And that’s, where I expected the TMD-community to kick in. It definitely needs shaping and tuning. I’m really open to every single idea. There’s only one constraint: Nether Void has to stay.

So I hope you enjoyed so far, and that I will get some of your impressions. And don’t be to shy.


/Fossy