I really like your build, the only thing I would try to change would be trade the Cabal Therapies for Thoughtseizes and probably would cut a grim tutor or a crop rotation for Into the North to tutor for Dark Depths also changing the Swamps for Snow-Covered one.

I strongly believe that the feeling peoples had were due to the fact that prize structure was not advertise properly, at least that the feeling I got reading all the comments peoples have expressed on this forum. If you going for static prize(even if this a bad idea in my opinion prize structure should always be adaptive to attendance, of course if you want to guarantee a minimum prize to have more attendance that your business), that should be advertise properly saying prizes not based on attendance and the listing of the static prizes on your advertisement.

This way peoples would know exactly what they are playing for and could not complain about winning a swamp (vintage player like cards bases on utility, even if they got a pimp factor, guru land are pretty narrow in that category and for a Stax player this is just worthless).



I don't want to get rude, but the expenses were probably split among the weekend events and something went wrong if proportion kept running the vintage event cost you more than all the profit generated from it (keeping vintage communities stimulated at your venue making sure you keep selling cards for that format, making sure that the venue was used at almost 100% of it capacity for the time you got it to minimize it global cost, profit generated for the sale of the cards from the prize people didn't chose their prize so this is kind of a forced sale of card that usually sleep for long in your inventory and pure profit generated from the difference in the prize charged and the value of prize given)


I don't get the point of this comparison, this is like saying you complain about this tournament but it provided you so much more entertainment than going to see a bad music show and man this show cost me a total of 40 box and even if I called "judge" during the show nobody would have heard me! All I got is memory....... So what with magic? If you don't like bad movies, inform yourself critic are often out before movies goes in theatre and just don't go and that way you'll have more money to feed your kids.




That is  part of the business, to have organized tournament myself, you gotta accept the fact that sometimes you make money and other time you don't, important part is to figured out why you didn't and to correct the situation in order to generate no lost in future events you run  and most important don't take risk beyond your capacity .  But from what I learn, having prizes based on attendance is often the right formula to stimulate peoples to come and bring friends with them in order to have the bigger prizes offered and by the same time minimize the risk you take. At the opposite, Guaranteed static prizes  often tend to have the invert effect, people hope that not to much people will show up so they have a better shot at scoring the prizes offered.


I think peoples just got their frustrations out here, but you are right, if something upset you speak with the Organizer, that way you'll have a chance to have things changed. I don't think that all tournament organizers come and check out forums in order to know if someone, somewhere is not happy with how things went, voice yourself, speak with the persons involved.


I am not sure, but I don't think you can do anything about it, at least anything legal from wizards point of vue as long as this doesn't append during the event. Even if peoples said bad things about how bad the staff was after the event in a forum, there is not much that can be done in banning them from sanctioned event you run.

Of course this doesn't excuse that fact that some words were probably beyond what is acceptable to some peoples, but that's life when you put a bit of black humour in something some will find it funny and other will cry and denounce it, personally I think that they were funny and should not be taken at first level. This part remind me of the "pretty in pink" and "long nails" episode of some months ago.

Same thing could be said about a lot of decks that goes for an alternate win condition in the form of a robots (Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titans, Platinum Angel, etc...) I don't get your point.
For sure chalice at two is bad for this deck on game one but don't forget that it can easily address this situation in game two and three.


This also apply to decks that tries to wins on the back of Tendrils of Agony, even if I must agree on the fact that Tendrils is a bit harder to stop, since you must either use a stifle effect, have shroud or prevent the chain that would lead to a deadly Tendrils. 

Just as a recall this is a budget combo deck offering a good way to get in vintage that doesn't cost you an harm and a leg. It have cards that allow you to interact with your opponent in the form of 4 Pact of Negation and 4 Force of Will and have an high blue count, this doesn't seam that bad as a start.

It did prove it playability by placing twice in top8.

In the end, I guest this deck is just not your style, but that doesn't mean you must dismiss it as being bad for such a reason, all that you said to dismiss it so far can be said about a lot of decks...

I'm not saying that this deck is the best deck out there, but it seem to be a lot more playable than what you would like us to believe.

First great report, I really enjoyed reading it and liked the deck listing with comment

I agree with you P9 is like the 7 wonders of the world transposed to the card game, everyone playing magic knows about these cards.
But like the 7 wonders times change and new stuff are build so there were a vote regarding the new 7 wonders of the world back in 2007.
I think this concept could be applied to magic as well, in the form of a vote for the new Power X representing the most powerful spells of modern Vintage. Could be name like Modern Power X.
I don't know if anyone in the community have the skill, time and will to organize such a thing but I really think this would be great, could offer prize to the voters in order to attract more people to vote and would probably generate profit to the one organizing such a thing (with sponsors and publicity).

Anyways congratulation on the finish, really like to read about deck that differ from Tez + Time vault = Win or Painter + Stone = Win

First congratulations on the finish. I really like your deck and the creature package you included.

A question I've got regarding Vendilion Clique, did you ever used his effect on you to filter dead cards from you hand or was it always more interesting to get information from you opponent hand?


Do you mean that he casted Regrowth on Yawgmoth's Will?
I just asked since Yawgmoth's Will should have removed itself from the game after he casted it and it resolved since it goes to the graveyard after its effect start to apply.

I also play bad player with good deck online, does that make good deck bad? Walking into drain without offering resistance when playing a 5cc card look like an awful play to me.


Could you be more specific when you say that the deck is so awkward and that it uses so many subpar/questionable cards (which one and what are the better card in those case)?

I guess when something new popup everyone bash on it and doesn't try to master it. I remember when I first saw post on TPS and some detractor where dismissing it as a pile, still results proved that they were wrong, but the deck in my opinion is still underplayed probably due to the high curve to master it perfectly, Tezz deck are so widely play because there  are so easy to play and forgiving on mistake.

This deck still made two top 8, for sure there surprise factor surely help him the first time, the second tournament result was a prize split in a 24 peoples tournament in the same league so the best players where probably aware of the existence of this deck and knew better how to play against it.

I agree with you regarding Hymn to tourach is quite outdated even if it get more card it does it in a random fashion witch it not as strong as to get to chose what they discard.

I see the intended purpose of your article of having this build as a *Budget* deck, but if you would raised it to a non budget deck what change would you apply to this deck?

Also what about Bitterblossom, as I said earlier it seem to be too slow for vintage and the fact that it is good in the staxx matchup and also good when someone play CoV against you doesn't seem to be enough to justify it, could you elaborate on this card choice?

Also do you think it would be better to run Chalice of the Void instead of Sinkhole, I know that Chalice of the Void at 0 block moxen but Null Rod also block this and address the Painter Combo and Chalice of the Void set a 1 block most of your disruption and accelerate.


If I was to play this in a tournament I guest I would end up with a list close to:
Maindeck:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Toughtseize
4 Sinkhole 
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Death Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

Lands (19):
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SideBoard(15):
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Oxidize
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Yixlid Jailer

I'm not for Carnophage either don't get me wrong, actually I think this a creature that shouldn't make the cut in any suicide black deck list. I just think that Blossom is a bad card in this deck, not fast enough to race your opponents if they are playing either control of combo, I see it being good against Staxx but other than this single match up I don't see it being relevant enough to make the cut.

I see a splash of green adding much more to the deck list as in this one (i personally don't like the 3 mind twist, I would replace them with Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will and Death Wish also I would swap a Umezawa's Jitte for a Tendrils of Agony): http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=940

3. Timo Schünemann
"[TMT] Gb Suicide"
Maindeck:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mind Twist
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sinkhole
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

Lands (18):
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SideBoard(15):
2 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Oxidize
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Yixlid Jailer

Hi Smmenen,

First thanks for the article, I love when you get out of known archetypes to write about others options. I think this is the kind of things that are needed to get new ideas to bloom, without them only restriction/unrestriction/new set seeing printing would give vintage changes.     

As for the use of bitterblosssom in suicide black I can't help it but to go back at what Edward was saying about the Zombies:

   Let’s imagine that I cast a Carnophage on turn one.  By the end of the fifth turn, the Carnophage will have done eight damage.  A different scenario: Let’s say that I was busy disrupting my opponent, and I couldn’t cast my Flesh Reaver or Nantuko Shade until turn three.  By the end of the fifth turn, I will have done the same amount of damage with a Flesh Reaver as I did with the Carnophage that had a two turn head start!  Similarly, Nantuko Shade will almost certainly deal at least eight damage in such a scenario - and in both of these examples I gave the Carnophage a head start just to demonstrate how much slower it is than the optimal creatures!  So as you can see, the illusion of dealing more damage faster with Zombies is merely that - an illusion!


Since bitterblossom, even if cast on turn one, would have only done 6 damage by the end of the fifth turn, this is even less than Carnophage witch is the example used by Edward in his primer. I would like to know why you think this is fast enough for vintage and  help you put you opponent on a clock? Even an Ashenmoor Gouger casted on turn 3 would have done more damage by that time. I see the added value against Staxx and the combo with Gate to Phyrexia. If you would have had a splash for green with Tarmogoyf I would also have seen the fact that this is a +2 as counting as a Tribal and an Enchantment cards but even with that I don't see the need for it. Could you elaborate on this choice.

Regards

 

There is a lot of trailers and game play footages over there: http://www.gametrailers.com/game/8234.html

I am proud of the result we pulled out, I did vote for Vintage as a lot of us did, but not as a casual player. It kind of got to me when I read the last part where he was wondering how many votes were from casual or tournament vintage's players that pulled out this result. I wrote down an e-mail to him:

Dear Devin Low,
  Regarding your article "MerFolklore": it's more about the result from last week's poll! Is Wizards of the coast do that as an habit, neglecting the fact that there is a strong vintage community out there?

  I meant why didn't you took those result and analyzed them saying: "It's interesting that the word "Standard" here includes both hardcore "Tarmogoyf" and "Wilt-Leaf Liege" Pro tours tournament deck and casual Merfolk decks that want to play "Deepchannel Mentor"and "Inkfathom Witch". It definitely makes me curious what proportion of the voters who picked “Standard” are in each of those two categories.

  When it come to "Vintage", Wizards have the bad habit of trying to neglect the fact that there is a strong tournament scene out there, that they do not support at all.

  Please, don't come out and says, we do one tournament per year. If you did one tournament a year for "Standard" do you think people would be buy you product that much? Even if the prize is a one of a kind oversize "Tarmogoyf" with alternate art.

   When I saw this vote, I saw an opportunity to voice out the fact that we existed, that we as a community, were valued by Wizards. I hoped you would take to result to Mark Rosewater and tell him: Mark, it's incredible, why didn't we care more about those guys, and grant them the chance to be part of a structured and ranked tournament scene, why Wizards is not allowing 10 proxy tournament to be ranked and legal. This way we would know how much of those guys are playing out there, and have real statistic to have a better understanding of what is going out there and not just improvise the band and restrict list as we do, we were blind for so long now I see the light, oh thank God to have gave me such the great idea to ask for this poll!

  Don't forget as an employee of Wizards of the coast you voice, is their voice, so when I read your article, I see that the reviewed it and approved it, so they agreed with what it saids.

  I hope you will seriously reconsider the result of this poll and do something better than that with it.

  Vintage need your respect and your support as much as "Standard" does. Without your support we managed to build a strong community; with your support, it would become something probably as huge as "Standard" is.   

I think it's important to make them understand that we exist as a community and that they should respect and support us as much as they do for the rest of magic's communities. It seem as vintage is the "enfant terrible" of Wizards.

Have a nice day and I encourage you to voice out your opinion to Wizards, so maybe together we will have a positive impact on the ranked tournament scene.

Top 8's Deck lists from Friday night Vintage preliminary tournament can be found under the "Vintage Prelim Top 8" section of this page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07-saturday#15

Top 8's Deck lists from Saturday Vintage championship tournament can be found under the "Vintage Championship Top 8 Decklists" of this page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07#8