Really just not worth it if Menendian isn't there to get crushed for everyone to see by someone who's "obviously very skilled"...

I go back to school the 20th =/ Happy birthday though!

Quite true. Hopefully I get to play in a tourney over spring break...its been far too long.

Bah if only...a week after I go back for school. Hope it all runs well...

I assure you there was a Time Vault. I don't know about the other guy, but my shirt says Shuttlesworth on the back. So if you follow the Celtic and know who Ray Allen is....

The truth is that good players don't want to run the less powerful decks, even if they are a good "meta-call." Good players will assume that they will be able to outplay their inferior opponents in the mirror, and just win against everyone else, as worse players are running the trashy decks. People can stick up for Null Rods and other piles all they want, but hell will probably freeze over before ELD, Rich Shay, and other players of similar stature or anyone else will actually want to play with them before Mana Drains. I'm sure people will point out the few examples were good players have broken down to play something else...but I'm sure thats largely an exception.

Don't mock the future of Vintage Mack 

Do we get more of those wonderful 20 card pre cons?!?!?!?!

Also, Pre reg please

Ill be there (Jason Ford). Hopefully you can take some of my cards for store credit...

Not quite. Witness can be getting back a Bazaar to function like a Sage, but flexible in most other ways, with the ability to get back an Unmask, Chalice, Darkblast/Contagion, bounce spell...etc.

I've played with a lot of different "win" conditions, from FKZ to Hypnotist, Ancestor's Chosen to Angel of Despair, Sundering Titan, Witness, and other dumb guys. For starters, most of the games you win have nothing to do with Dread Returning a specific target, so occupying more than 2 slots with targets seems absurd to me, even for "diversity" applications. As you can see by the aforementioned choices, there are really 3 groups (I think..): Win now, "Win" now, and flexibility. The Win now, basically referring to FKZ or Sutured Ghoul, are the worst imo, as they are often the most resource dependent. As meadbert will point out, your basically living the dream when your winning with these guys already, making them much more situational. They also tend to occupy more deck slots (want to run multiple FKZ, Cephalid Sage with them, etc). The "Win" now guys are my personal choice (Titan, Razer, Hypnotist, etc) as they put you in a situation almost as good as the Win now, in that your opponent has a one turn window to get extremely lucky (though I recognize that there is those possibilities in Vintage) or else its over, while being much less resource dependent. The flexible guys are just that, not quite featuring the same raw power as the other two groups but randomly doing nice things.

I will say though, I find it slightly obnoxious that these threads keep coming up with the two camps of "I've only ever played with FKZ so it must be the best" and "I read meadberts article and stand by it without ever testing the waters myself" going to war over such a menial point of Dredge.

Gleeful Sabotage is a sorcery 

I haven't played Vintage in a very long time...and I guess this is a solid opportunity to fix that. Consider me pre-regd.

How's the mana for the deck? I remember in Extended Zoo you typically opened with Overgrown Tomb --> Sacred Foundry (Bayou--> Plateau) to turn on your Nacatl and Tidehollow, but I guess Putrid Leech and Moxes kind of changes that. Any insight to give?

How anyone beats Playskill Pogrebinsky boggles my mind  Gratz on the win and for writing a solid report..makes me want to start playing again.

Why no Tidehollow Sculler?

What's the typical casting cost for Thoughtcast?

And where do you stand on Inkweel vs Darksteel in a deck with Thirst?

Gratz on the finish, and good luck wherever your education will take you.

A win from the man who once said "Tezzeret was never missed." How things have changed 

1 Enlightened Tutor in the SB seems solid. It tutors up 5 of your other board options (most of which are singletons), and can get Standstill/Null Rod.

Just a few things to consider:

Vendilion Clique - Its a faerie, is a sizeable clock, is blue (Force of Will), and has a pseudo Duress effect. Just knowing your opponents hand has often been good enough for me

Chrome Mox- T1 Bblossom or Confidant (or even Thorn) seems pretty dope. I realize how bad they are with Chalice/Null Rod, but maybe you only want 8 out of the 12 artifacts?

Also, I'm pretty sure you want Demonic Tutor and Brainstorm in here (and maybe even Ponder). Their too good to pass up.

As you draw the comparison, Profusion just looks worse than Bargain. If anything, Profusion would just be another "bomb" in those sort of Ritual-based decks. Unfortunately, there are plenty of other existing cards like that, most of which do a superior job (and are thus played).

However, this is all said with zero testing of the deck.

The Towers seem cool, but I am almost just assuming that when you "go off" you will either immediately win, or have the win on the table.

Singleton Pithing Needle seems kind've loose, and I can't say I'm  a huge fan of Thoughtcast either. I think I'd rather run something more consistent like Impulse or Thirst...but that also means your slowly drifting further away from a combo deck to control (though your already playing some Drains).

All in all...I'm not sure what to make of it.   

Are the Towers really neccessary?

I would cut the Dryads for a second copy of Tendrils and 2 other cards...they seem to take up unnecessary space.

How is this superior to TPS?

I really haven't read much of this thread, but I'd like to drop my 2 cents...

Without proxies, I wouldn't be playing Vintage. My friends wouldn't be playing. Paying $25 to get crushed while running a budget deck gets old fast. Even if a budget deck can be competitive, it simply doesn't contain the same allure as the more powerful decks. I enjoy playing Vintage because I know that I can put together whatever deck I feel I have the best chance at winning with, and not be restricted by card choice.

That said, proxies have their pitfalls. I won a tourney last week and had the choice between store credit (that would have become a Mox) or cash. After a little thought, I took the cash. Simply put, the Mox has very little value to me. I don't need it (because of proxies), and even if I owned it, I would almost certainly case it up and build a shrine to it...not play with it. While it would be cool to own Power (as I still get excited whenever a player drops a power piece/pimp card against me), its just an unnecessary liability.

I have to echo the statement that diversity in your Ichorid hate is important. I went 3-0 against Ichorid on Day 2 of TMD Open, with the following "hate" cards:

Md:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Trinket Mage

SB:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ingot Chewer

Clearly, my hate is all over the place. I do not fold to Chalice or Pithing Needle. I could also back up my hate pieces with quick Tarmgoyfs that ensured the game would end before Dredge could fine appropriate answers. And for all you haters of 1 Leyline of the Void, I guess I should quote Gunslinga who put it best (albeit, sarcastically):

If you hit it, great. If you don't, they'll probably board out any Leyline removal they have (aside from CoV) for g3. Sure, drawing it is awful, but so is drawing several other cards in your deck against Dredge. On top of this, I see a trend of Ichorid players cutting back on Leyline hate, which is probably due to the lack of Leylines. As someone who played Dredge for several tournaments, I feel this is a terrible choice (though awesome for people who play Leyline). You really can't do anything with a Leyline in play. At least with Yixlid Jailer, you can Bazaar stuff away until you kill off Jailer. With Leyline, your milling away your business, and it becomes much more difficult to win quickly before they drop another hate piece.

I'd also like to comment on other "hate" card choices. First off, Extirpate isn't very good. You really need to hit multiples for them to do anything effective against Dredge. If Bridge tokens don't get you, Ichorids will. If Ichorids don't, Narcomoebas --> Golgari-Grave Troll will. Tormod's Crypt and Relic are great, but you need to be able to win quickly afterwards. Just because you got rid of a couple of Bridge doesn't mean there aren't anymore sitting in there deck. Lastly, I feel that Pithing Needle is the trickiest one to evaluate. As decks try to pack in Fatestichers, shutting down a Bazaar becomes even more vital. However, as more people begin playing Mana'd Ichorid, Needle gets worse, as they have a bunch of Draw spells and Cephalid Coliseum.

One other major reason I can cite for Ichorid winning is improper play against it. This is most notable when players are running cards like Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus. They either pop it prematurely (often just a Time Walk), or try and sandbag it while they get run over by Zombie Tokens. Writing off the deck as skillless and packing a few cards against it that you don't know how to use properly is just setting up for failure.

As long as you keep playing Bazaars and I roll with my Tarmogoyfs, the world will keep on spinning. Always a pleasure to play against you and read your epic writing =P

And really, who else would ever want to get paired against Dredge....

 

Jason Ford Prereg

Just you, though I played against 2 Ichorid decks in the swiss. Top 4 was against UGW Hierarch Fish, and the finals was against Remora. Always a pleasure 


Yep, that was me. I pre-regd with a  bye and paid ahead because I knew that I would be coming down after actual registration time. However, due to traffic/getting lost/other complications, I didn't show up until the end of round 2. EZ win heh

Much appreciated. Also, much thanks to Arik and the rest of the carpool for sticking around for me, all of my opponents on both days, and Ray for hosting this awesome tournament. I haven't had this much fun playing Magic for a while.

I remember you telling me that you thought I was playing with Tarmogoyfs at Pandeominum and then opened the game with a Relic against my Dredge deck. Your such a master 

I played against the Merfolk deck...and I don't know how good of a showing it put on against me, but Selkie sounds pretty bad. It's three mana, and is pretty bad unless its accompanied by a Lord. On top of that, you'd probably be just as well of spending your mana Wastelanding your opponent or beating with Mutavault. I'd rather play cards that independently good than one's that are situationally awesome.

That's a pretty bold and, I feel, inaccurate statement. Giving someone a free land drop is not ignorable by any means