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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: Ritual Combo in 2014?
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on: June 03, 2014, 04:06:22 pm
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In general I agree with you in much of your comments, sometimes is a matter of personal taste to choose one or other option. But I don't agree with you in your vision about Force of Will making the deck more controlling and Duress more direct. Duress is slower, the majority of the time you lost first turn casting it and waiting to next turn to try to go off. Force is faster, you don't use it as a control card, it is only to protect your bombs, nothing else. Obviously against Workshop or hatebears that you don't need to protect your spells you can control a little the field but only to avoid decisive cards. Pitchlong was better than Grimlong because of that flexibility and this capacity to start direct since the first turn. Imagine you have Necro, ritual and duress against a control deck, you will cast first duress and second turn, ritual necro, but if you have Force instead of Duress then you will start casting Ritual, Necro protecting it with FoW. Another advantage of FoW over Duress is that it cannot be stopped by Misstep. I don't understand how you fear Misstep and your only real protection is 4 cards that can be countered by it. I don't say that Duress is bad, it will always a good card for combo, but in a field full of Missteps and hate creatures is not as effective as it used to be. If you replace the 4 Duress in your long list with 4 Forces it continue being very fast and you can play in a very similar way.
About Fact, if you need to waste your one use accelerants like rituals or vault to cast it faster then it doesn't deserves the investment. It will be 2 cards and 4 manas for 2 or 3 cards.
When I build a deck I try to minimize the number of conditional cards that are included to avoid hands with 2 or 3 conditional cards that can make you lost irremediably. This is the reason I don't like cards like noxious and lion's eye diamond that can be useful at times but other times will remain in your hand without utility.
I think Top is very useful in this deck. To see 3 cards more with 1 generic mana in a deck full of bombs and the option to draw it at the moment is too good. I think 2 are a very good number, so you have 5 cards that with 1 mana you can see 3 more cards after a draw seven (ancestral, brainstorm, ponder and 2 tops). Playing with them you will see that the difference to play two is big, you fizzle much less. The same with Windfall, it has is drawbacks but I found that I need a draw seven (or similar) more with low cost (3 or less) to not fizzle often and with bouncers to increment my opponent hand at the same time that I make him lost acceleration, it makes Windfall a good option.
I don't like Grim Tutor to much. Two blacks force you sometimes to cast ritual before and it is slow, forcing you often to concede turn before cast the bomb you search for. Imperial Tutor is different, sometimes I include it, sometimes not, but being a sorcery makes it not flexible enough for my taste. Too many loses after casting it and search for something that becomes useless after opponent turn.
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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: Ritual Combo in 2014?
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on: May 31, 2014, 02:47:04 pm
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If you think misstep doesn't hurt this deck, I think it's you that have not played this deck enough in the current metagame... I don't think you can say that people don't play this deck aggressively enough since it's as agressive as it gets and it can't play any other way, at least with 4 probes and 4 duresses you have the perfect hand information you need at all times to play as aggressively as possible without going all in when you don't need to. Force of will hurts the deck a lot, I tried running it and while it makes the deck better against workshops, you loose a lot of consistency and you are forced to pitch cards you need to the fows and they just make you clunkier when going off, also fow is a 2 for 1 when this deck can't afford to have dead cards or spend too much of it's resources to deal with 1 thing.
Misstep can annoy you and sometimes make you lost but the majority of the bombs of the deck cannot be stopped by misstep and it can play against one or two without problems. FoW counter always the spell you need to counter meanwhile Duress only take off the best spell he has on his hands at the moment, this is a big difference. Another problem to use 4 Duress is mana base. It forces you to fectch black to early and sometimes you have inconsistencies because you haven't fetch an island first and you don't have second fetch and one wasteland to your underground can destroy you. I prefer to fetch always an island first because the engine is almost blue. Only to play a bomb like necro or bargain can justify to fetch black first. 12 lands is the right balance for this decks speed, your list lacks a lot of the fast mana, meaning it will fizzle a lot more off the draw 7s, when i'll get 1 land and 2 accelerants you'll get 2 lands and 1 accelerant meaning you'll have to wait next turn to conclude after refilling your control opponent's hand. I wonder how you can thing your deck is fast and not a tps approach when you want to play controlish(counters) and have less explosive mana to deploy your threats quickly. Of course 14 lands are better for the workshop game 1, but workshops are less than 20% of the field, so making your deck worse against other decks just to slightly improve one matchup is not a good idea.
Well, you have additional Lion's Eye Diamond, Mana Vault and Cabal Ritual, three accelerators that are very circumstantial and don't have to many synergy with your deck. Lion's without draw seven is like one win more card and Cabal Ritual is slow and clunky. By the way, 12 lands make you that every mulligan is a risk. You cannot mulligan aggressively, you can be happy if you have 1 land with six or less cards. Consistency is also the capacity of the deck to not need to mulligan too much or in case of necessity not be scared to mulligan. Also with 12 lands your mana base is very exposed to a lucky Wasteland and current metagame is full of them. To avoid fizzle my deck has 2 Sensei's Divining Top, 3 Probes and usual 1 cc blue draw so instead of seeing 7 cards lot of time you see 10 or 11, thing that makes the difference. Repeal and chain of vapor can deal with Null rod too you know ? but they can also deal with other stuff that your bounce suit can, you'll just loose if opponent lands a Stony, leyline of sanctity, gaddock teeg ... etc Assuming you'll be able to counter hatebears is also not good enough since we live in a world with Cavern of Souls. Hurkyl etc have great synergy with the deck but so do my bounces, I can set up desires with far less ressources than your deck can. You have 3 artifacts bounces main deck, which is almost the bounce density I have for games 2/3 against workshops, are you playing in a 50% workshop field?
I admit that 1 Chain of Vapor will be good in my deck, perhaps I can replace 1 Flutterstorm with it. But the 2 hurkyl's are lot of synergy with the deck and sometimes you need to sacrifice it to FoW so you need to have to possibility to find another one. Rebuild can be cycled easily in case of necessity and have also synergy with the deck. They can increase spell count, can be played at the end of turn to play a draw sever just after and made lost to opponent all his acceleration. What do you think is better, to have chain and repeal to combat any hate or to have chain, 3 artifact bouncers and 4 FoW to counter possible problems before going off? Your deck is trying too much to beat workshops and worsening it's matchups against the rest of the field, I wonder how you can consider it to be the one of your worse matchups when your deck is completely devoted to beat it, my deck isn't that much and I'm still a lot more comfortable with that matchtup than with certain control decks. My approach is to have a flexible maindeck across the field and use my Sideboard to address each specific problem related to each matchup.
To have 1 additional hurkyl's I dont think is to have a deck devoted to beat Workshop decks. And in a field full of Wasteland to have more lands is necessary to survive and not to lose to one lucky wasteland. While you say Fact has never been a staple of the ritual pillar, I'm comfortable saying that is outranks windfall by a mile in most matchups and most of the draw7s against control decks. It's not slower than gifts, bargain or jar are so I don't see where you get the idea that it's slow from?
If your plan against control is to play Fact to race it you will lost to it. When Fact is online it has also Jace and will race you without problems. 1 mana less can be cast 1 or 2 turns earlier and this is the difference between win or loss. Obviously a good combo player will not play draw seven all the time against control decks, he has to wait to a good moment, specially after first turns. I didn't say you needed noxious revival to win with Gifts, I just said it makes it a lot easier, I stopped playing gifts because when it doesn't work out, you've just taken too much good stuff density out of your deck and a good opponent will know what you are holding by the way you make your gifts pile. It becomes less obvious for them with Nox and at the same time nox adds a lot of potential lines of play that weren't possible before such as: Lotus, noxious revival lotus, probe, lotus, Desire,...
What makes noxious revival a subpar card is the necessity to have a good card in your graveyard. I dislike cards that are circumstantial and no good by themselves. Also Pitch long without brainstorm sucks and back then the counters it was facing were very different then the ones we are facing today, how does fow interact with flusterstorm? How does Misdirection interact with Mindbreak trap? are you going to force of will a mental misstep on your ritual because you need the mana to cast Necropotence?
Well now we don't have brainstorm but we have Probes and Divining Tops that can help a lot in what brainstorm make good the deck. Obviously Misdirection is not used anymore, they has been replaced by Flutterstorms that can combat opponent Flutters or Mindbreak trap. What makes this deck good is the capacity to find bombs and not fizzle often, and Divining Top and Probes are an important part for it. And of course if I have Necropotence I will force the misstep, but if I only cast ritual to generate mana because I am planning to play a draw seven then I don't have problems to left misstep resolve. Your opponent has to play it without knowing how important to counter it is and you can use it to your advantage. I think you are playing this deck too much in the past and not enough in the current metagame, Card choices should be adapted to the environment the deck is facing and not blankly consider stuff to be auto includes or just bad for a given archetype.
Perhaps you are right but I have seen lot of combo decks similar to your deck in tournaments with 12 lands, duress and stuff and none made something important a part from an occasional top 8. Perhaps thinking different and try different things will find something better. Grettings
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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: Ritual Combo in 2014?
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on: May 31, 2014, 07:01:50 am
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Imo wheel alone doesn't justify including red to the deck, Red is included in my list mainly for the sb option of Ingot chewer and Empty the warrens and because it doesn't hurt the manabase at all to include 1 badlands that you'll fetch when you need red and otherwise act as UB deck. I don't think workshops are the real thing holding this deck back (which if rough in games 1, is easier to beat with a reasonable sideboard plan for this deck than it is for mana drain decks), i'm more inclined to follow Tobi here and say that it's in fact the Drain decks that have made it hard for this deck since they have a lot more efficient wincons(Time Vault, better oath and tinker targets) and their counter suite is a ton more hard to play around (Misstep, Flusterstorm and the occasional Mindbreak trap) compared to what they used to be.
Well as you say red doesn't hurt the manabase and he provides good sb options, so why no include Wheel that it always has been one of the best cards in combo? I don't agree about that drain decks being so hard with ritual combo. It is true that the counter suite is now more big and powerful but it is also true that his draw engines are less powerful, slow and less consistent that before, specially in the early turns so Drain decks cannot maintain a counter wall consistently. There are a lot of other enablers for rituals deck than draw 7s, Fact or Fiction is pretty hot. Your deck looks a lot more like TPS than Long anyway so I question you even want draw 7s in there. Duress is a must have for any storm deck and while flusterstorm is not bad, it doesn't allow you to actually compete in counterwars on it's own.
I don't think you have play enough storm combo if you have these firm opinions about draw seven or duress. Pitch long was some years ago the best ritual combo deck to the point that Grim long almost dissapear. The basic difference between both was to use pitch counters (FoW and Missdirections) instead of Duress. The restriction of Brainstorm was his dead but we don't have to forgot how it works and what made the deck strong. By the way, Misstep is a very circumstantial counter, it doesn't hurt any of the bombs of the deck, only a few enablers like tutors or rituals, so I think the deck can play around it easily. And not, Fact or Fiction never has been a pillar of combo and never will be, is too slow and not enough powerful compared with draw seven. If it wasn't played in Tps that was the more controlling approach for ritual combo much less in a faster deck. 2 hurkyl + 1 rebuild maindeck is good against workshops but you are not going to face workshops all day and there are a ton of non artifact permamnents that can still give you a hard time (Thalia, Gaddock teeg, Spirit, Stony silence,...) Personally my bounce suite is composed of 1 hurkyl, 1 repeal and 1 chain of vapor for maximum flexibility/utility.
1 hyrky'ls and 12 lands is not enough to win consistent to workshop decks, not also nullrod decks, basically if they have a good start against you you are dead. Repeal is bad in combo, very expensive and little effect, worst still if you only have one. In my deck you have Force of Will to protect the first creature hate casted and lot of times this is enough as the deck can win just after. Perhaps a Chain of Vapor can be necessary but the bouncer suite with 2 hurky'l and 1 Rebuild (recyclable) has lot of synergy with the deck. I'm off the opinion that Force of will is bad for long decks and good for Tps decks, so i would suggest that either you gear your deck towards one approach or the other but bastardizing the deck usually ends up making it worse rather than better.
Since you're running Gifts ungiven, you should probably add Noxious revival since It works well with a number of cards in the deck on it's own (lotus, ancestral, countered bomb,...), and makes gifts piles a lot easier.
Obviously I disagree with you at this point. Force of Will is more flexible and give the deck the capacity to interact with enemy decks. Tps is slower and in the current metagame is difficult for it because is not enough fast to play the aggro role and not enough consistent to play the control role. But playing with Force of Will doesn't imply that the deck is Tps, it is pitch long that has to be played more aggressive and try to go off very quickly. By the way, Gifts ungiven doesn't need Noxious revival to have win piles, I almost always finish the match just after casting Gifts with a good selection of cards. I think people need to play the deck aggressively and see what happens. It is better that it seems over paper. I haven't played a deck as fast and consistent has this since Ritual Gifts. Thanks for comment
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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: Ritual Combo in 2014?
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on: May 30, 2014, 04:47:30 am
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First question that came up after reading the decklist was: why red? Wheel is a good card, and red offers some interesting sideboard options, but as you specifically mentioned MUD and Hatebears as problematic matchups I think it makes sense to think about cutting red for a more stable manabase. You should be able to address any problematic issues in your sideboard with blue and black cards. I think you don't really -need- red. Wheel could be replaced with Grim Tutor for example.
Red is present because Wheel of Fortune. There is no real replacement for this card, not as good and as fast at it is. As I comment before the threat density is very important and to have a card that can replenish your hand at 3cc is too good to be ignored. Blue or black alternatives are much slower and have less quality. Grim Tutor for example is very slow compared with Wheel. And mana base is very stable as it is at the moment, with 3 basic lands and 14 lands in total, 2 more than usual in this kind of decks. What allow you to have this kind of mana base is the quantity of bombs and draw cards, avoiding you been mana flooded. My second question is, are the 2 Flusterstorm that good in this deck? They will not help with your problematic matchups (although blue has become a very problematic matchup, being the main reason for combo being essentially dead, IMO), and will not help counter opposing Flusterstorms in most cases. Duress effects are better at preparing for your combo turn, and I would always play at least one that I can tutor. Also, Mental Missteps are probably more useful than Flusterstoms.
Chain of Vapor is a card I would always include in any combo list. Enabling storm and handling almost any permanent are enough reasons.
Well, I haven't tested too much against blue decks with this deck but in my humble opinion what the deck needs is something to protect your bombs in the early turns and Mental Missteps is very limited for that, only useful against opposite Duress or Missteps. Missteps is better in a control deck, for ritual combo it doesn't do enough. Duress can be useful but with the quantity of Missteps present in the metagame it has lost some effectiveness and also sometimes it forces you to fetch black to early. Current control decks plays a lot of counters but they are circumstantial counters and current draw engines are slow so they are very vulnerable at the first turns and this deck try to exploit it. I agree with you about Chain of Vapor, probably it deserves a slot. Thanks for your comments.
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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: Ritual Combo in 2014?
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on: May 29, 2014, 08:39:27 am
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Hi everybody,
I have played ritual combo since years but the last two years it was so difficult to play against MUD that I desisted and try more control oriented decks. But lately I started to think about return to ritual combo as metagame turns into more creature base decks and is not well prepared to combat fast combo. I used to play in Liga Catalana of Vintage every month but after the birth of my second daughter I didn't have enough time and I decided to retire from competition and only play with friends once a week. So I have not tested the deck against all the meta, only a few decks but probably the worst pairings of this deck (MUD and hatebears).
For me the most important thing when I started building the deck was that it has to be competitive against MUD without sideboard so it needs to interact with this deck. With this in mind I automatically opted for Force of Will instead of Duress/Thoughtsize. Another important thing is to have enough lands to survive to some wasteland and/or chalice of the void. And obviously the best option to beat MUD is to cast Hurky's/Rebuild and have enough good cards to win just after. So threat density is very important and also to have enough bouncing cards to see then often.
With this premises in mind I pass to write down the list directly:
// Lands
4 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Scalding Tarn 2 Underground Sea 2 Volcanic Island 1 Tolarian Academy 2 Island 1 Swamp
// Fast mana
1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Opal 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Sol Ring 4 Dark Ritual
// Draw
1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 2 Sensei's Divining Top 3 Gitaxian Probe 1 Time Walk
// Bombs
1 Wheel of Fortune 1 Timetwister 1 Windfall 1 Tinker 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Gifts Ungiven 1 Memory Jar 1 Mind's Desire 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
// Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor
// Defense
4 Force of Will 2 Flusterstorm 2 Hurky's Recall 1 Rebuild
// Win conditions
1 Tendrils of Agony
Comments:
One of the things that surprise me more about the deck is the capacity to win after a draw seven. Everybody that plays combo knows that to play a draw seven is not always definitive and time to time the deck flooded. But with this version you usually see 3 o 4 more cards after draw seven and this is very important and together with threat density they make you win instead of flooded.
Sensei's Divining Top is important for that because it is permanent and it has synergy with other cards of the deck (mox opal or sometimes with bouncers).
Bouncers has a lot of synergy in the deck, they help you to combat artifacts, to increment casting spells, to up the number of cards in hand and decrease fast mana from opponent before casting a draw seven, etc.
The only thing perhaps I will change from main will be the inclusion of a Chain of Vapor to have a universal solution to any problem but I am not sure is required. If I need it it will replace one of the Fluterstorm I suppose.
The deck is fast, very fast, against opponents without disruption you can win in turn one or two very often. You can use this speed to avoid lot of hate and this is the cause that decks based on hate like null rod aggro or hatebearer are not difficult. And it is consistent, probably the more reliable ritual combo deck I have played. It has a consistent mana base, it has lot of threats, lot of synergy between cards, disruption to control early game, etc.
I have obtain good results against MUD, including at draw position. After sideboarding it will be easier of course but it has a change to compete against them during first match at draw, not like other ritual combo decks.
I didn't create a sideboard because it depends on metagame. Obviously against MUD 2 more Hurkyl's and 2 Ingot will help, and some Toxic Deluxe or Pyroclasm will help against bears. Nothing different that sideboards we have seen in this thread.
What do you think about the deck?
Cheers
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Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Bomberman Redux
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on: December 07, 2012, 06:57:57 am
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4 Dark Confidant 3 Trinket Mage 2 Auriok Salvager 2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will 3 Mana Drain 3 Spell Snare 3 Mental Misstep 2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Nihil Spellbomb 1 Sensei’s Divining Top 1 Thirst for Knowledge 1 Time Walk 3 Jace, the Minsculptor
4 Flooded Strand 2 Polluted Delta 2 Island 3 Tundra 2 Underground Sea 1 Plains 2 Cavern of Souls
1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt
Just as food for thought, this is how I could see a streamlined UBW version which is close to the UW list. As the UW version it focuses just on the Bomberman combo, plays a simliar counter shell and avoids any topdeck tutors. Cavern is good in this deck, as it plays more creatures and all are humans. The manabase is worse, but maybe an early Confidant can compensate that. The Oath matchup is worse, the Control matchup is imo better. It is strange to play a Bob deck without Will, Tinker and Library, but the deck plays out quite consistanty. Other cards to think about are the fourth Trinket, Vampiric Tutor, Ponder, Cage, possible cards to cut are the two Snapcasters and the Thirst.
I am still undecided, which version I like more, but I think it is worth to compare them and make the best out of two worlds.
I prefer to play less counters and play topdeck tutors. This option allows you to play more aggressively in the first turns and makes Snapcaster better with the possibility to replay ancestral or time walk more often. Without them Snapcaster has no sense because the only targets you will have usually will be counters. I suppose is a question of play style, but when I add black to Bomberman is to play it aggressively the first turns and play control game after if the match is still not resolved. For me is basic to put a Confidant quickly into play or try to resolve ancestral once or twice quickly. These are my lines of play for two first turns, trying to take card advantage. After that if I can resolve combo I will go for it and if not I will try to play traditional control as with UW Bomberman. I think this add more options to the deck to adapt to any situation, playing the role required in each match instead of playing always the control role as with UW version. So I will cut Thirst for Knowledge and some Mental Misstep to add one more Snapcaster and topdeck tutors.
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Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Bomberman Redux
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on: December 04, 2012, 03:07:22 pm
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I don't think vault-key combo is necessary. Auriok combo replace it and is more reliable. You have more than an Auriok and the rest it is fetchable with Trinkets. I prefer to have two useful cards instead of it.
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Eternal Formats / Blue-Based Control / Re: Bomberman Redux
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on: December 04, 2012, 10:42:56 am
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What black gives to this deck is something that it never has, a good early game and also a solid and non mana intensive draw engine that the deck lost with the restriction of Thirst of Knowledge. Black tutors help also to make combo faster. As a counterpart it makes mana base a little worse. To include or not black depends more of your style of play but I don't think UW version is better than UWB by definition. In fact black improves MUD pairing without worsen the blue one, something not so easy to do.
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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: TPTS - The Perfect Tropical Storm
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on: November 14, 2010, 05:28:36 am
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To concluded my analysis of TPTS is that whichever your direction, be it Dark Ritual or Lotus Cobra, is sufficiently fine but that they conflict with each other yet accomplish the same goal. I prefer the Cobra's personally because of it being a permanent, and beat stick, and frankly unaffected by Spheres.
I have arrived to same conclusion, you need to choose between Rituals and Cobras, both in the same deck is too redundant. I also prefer Cobras, it's not a one shoot boost of mana like ritual, it's something from where you can extract mana lots of times, very synergistic with Gush including when you don't have fastbond and need extra mana because your lands are in hand. It's also a permanent and a creature that can make extra damage or stop a enemy creature when needed. It's ability helps a lot to skip spheres or spell pierces and the fact that you can choose the color of the mana help you to cast spells with color intensive cast. A card that has a lot of synergy with this kind of deck is Grim Tutor. It is very easy to cast with Cobras, find Fastbond very quickly and is no card disadvantaged like when casted with ritual. Currently I am testing a deck of this kind that I think has lot of power and could be a contender if refined a little: Lands4 Misty Rainforest 1 Flooded Strand 1 Scalnding Tarn 1 Polluted Delta 2 Island 3 Tropical Island 3 Underground Sea Fast Mana4 Lotus Cobra 1 Fastbond 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Sapphire Protection4 Force of Will 2 Misdirection 1 Rebuild 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Chain of Vapor Business4 Gush 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 3 Preordain 1 Timetwister 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Will 2 Jace the Mindsculptor 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Imperial Seal 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demoinc Tutor 2 Grim Tutor Finisher1 Tendrils of Agony It is a very fast deck, very aggressive and that can explode from nowhere. Plays like first turn Cobra, second turn Fetch, Grim Tutor, Fastbond, Gush, Jace or other Bomb is not so difficult to find.
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Deck Discussion: DeepTombLong (revised)
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on: July 31, 2010, 10:41:55 am
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Well, after two more weeks of testing I have modified the deck quite a lot: First modification was to replace one Ancient Tomb with a basic island to have more stable mana base. The change was very positive, more color implies less mulligans and 13 color lands and 2 Tombs make the mana stable and more explosive that the standard 14 color land. After testing heavily the MUD match before using sidebar I noted that continue to be very hard and unfavorable match. After sideboarding is better but I wanted something with more chances in the first game on the draw. As Deep Analysis was a dead draw against Workshop decks I replaced one with another Hurkyl's Recall. Passing from 2 massive bouncers to 3 increase quite a lot the % of wins the first game. With 3 you see one of then or tutor for it in every game so you have a change in much more games than before. This change make a little weak other match ups but you lose very few compared with what you win in MUD match up. I also tried again Ponder, is not my favorite card but is necessary to smooth casting costs and develop your mana base, and much better than ToK with 1 or 2 spheres on the table. Other changes I made was to replace Imperial Seal with Merchant Scroll. Seal is a very good card and more powerful than Merchant but force you to fetch swamp quickly. I try to avoid very black hands with this deck because is very important to start with an island on the table and if you have only a land and a heavy black hand you are forced to fetch swamp. Usually after that you can draw blue cards and not develop anything because you don't have blue. At this moment what my test reveals is that the weakest cards in the deck are Deep Analysis. They are good against control, average against Fish and combo and bad against workshop based decks. You need 2 turns to take full profit of then and have at least 4 mana to cast it from hand. So I need something to replace it, something blue and with a similar function. Then I though about Jace the Mind Sculptor, I haven't still play it and seems that is wining more and more adepts with the time. As my mana base has enough blue is not a big problem the double cost. Mind Sculptor is more powerful that DA and more versatile, definitively a good addition. The only problem is that the name I chose for the deck is not valid any more  Now Jace Long seems more accurate. Last change was replace Mana Vault with Mox Emerald, I prefer to have mana every turn that a boost of 3 once now that DA is not in the deck anymore. Jace Long (DeepTombLong 1st revision) Mana Base4 Polluted Delta 1 Scalding Tarn 1 Flooded Strand 3 Island 1 Swamp 2 Underground Sea 1 Tolarian Academy 2 Ancient Tomb Accelerators1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Perl 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal 1 Sol Ring 4 Dark Ritual Draw Engine1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Ponder 1 Time Walk 2 Jace the Mind Sculptor Bombs1 Necropotence 1 Tinker 1 Timetwister 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Gifts Ungiven 1 Fact or Fiction 1 Memory Jar 1 Mind's Desire 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain Tutors1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll Protection4 Force of Will 2 Misdirection 1 Chain of Vapor 2 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Rebuild Finishers2 Tendrils of Agony The deck now is more stable, continue being very powerful (has same bombs than TPS) and is a blast to play. I will try to add later an analysis against main archetypes and a generic sideboard
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Deck Discussion: DeepTombLong
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on: July 10, 2010, 04:34:23 pm
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I wonder about the kind of MUD your talking about, playing spheres, tangle wire, chalice, and Null rods ... at this point I have to abmit I've never played against such a thing and I'm sure I never will be. MUD with only mana and denial without threads...
Anyway, if opponent only lays down masses of denial you described you have plenty of time laying land, after land, after land. Then turn 2 or 3 removal is not needed. Moreover you have artifacts with cost 1 so chalice won't shut off tinker and a MUD only relying on denial would be beaten by every aggro-deck or a single confidant you may resolve. MUD is one of the matchups confidant shines as a cheap carddraw.
Well I test against a list like the following, lot of mana denial but important threats also: // Lands 1 Strip Mine 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Ancient Tomb 4 Mishra's Workshop 4 Wasteland 4 Mishra's Factory // Creatures 2 Razormane Masticore 4 Lodestone Golem 4 Juggernaut // Spells 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald 1 Trinisphere 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mana Vault 1 Sol Ring 1 Mox Jet 1 Black Lotus 2 Sculpting Steel 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Tangle Wire 4 Null Rod 4 Sphere of Resistance 4 Thorn of Amethyst If you don't have seen one like this list before is that you didn't face the good ones  At this point I dare to ask: That makes your build/idea better than a bob tendrils which was created to fight the new MUD's and Spell Pierces?
I think bob tendrils is a good deck but too depending on confidant. If opponent kills it then your deck is very slow, without engine and few threats. It is not the best deck to combat Oath also, a deck that is seeing play lately. In general bob tendrils is a reliable deck but a bit slow that have problems if cannot resolve a confidant during the first turns of the game. Another thing I dislike about this deck is that the number of blue cards to support Fow is very low and often you have Fow in hand but not blue card.
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13
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Deck Discussion: DeepTombLong
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on: July 10, 2010, 11:04:10 am
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I have a couple of suggestions, I really think that if you're playing combo and have that much blue, you should either run 8 pitch counters, or less blue. I would prefer to see some duresses in the every storm list. I like the idea of having a few less bombs, I know you understand the ins and outs of each, but having to think through the line of plays when tutoring up the ideal one can be mind breaking for most of the world, especially for time when things like bargain/desire could be the right play, or gifts/fact could be the right play.
Well if you add duress then better to play with TPS. I am trying to build something more similar to old Pitchlong, faster but with less control. I don't want to spend mana to protect my spells, I want spend mana only for draw or play bombs. A few questions that come to mind are, How does the deck play out with no Grim tutors? I've found them to be a necessity in most brutal combo. I'm also wondering how the deck can stand up to mana denial with a mana base like that.
With preordain a few days away what would you change?
To play Grim tutors you need more rituals, at least 2 or 3 Cabal. But Cabal is not very good in a world of spheres and you don't reach threshold quickly know that 4 brainstorm are not allowed. I don't think the mana base is so bad, it plays 3 basic, 6 fetchlands, 2 duals and Tolarian, just like TPS before Lodestone arrives. It plays 3 additional Tombs that are vulnerable to Wasteland but allow you to play your bombs very quickly and after casting the bomb it doesn't matter if they blow-up. By the way I am thinking to replace 1 Tomb by 1 basic island more to make it more stable, I need to test more to be sure. Ok I see you get me a bit wrong. I said that cutting artifact mana makes no sense in general in TPS. You did it because of null rod? That's daily buissness to fight that card. Cutting moxen 'cuz there a null rods out there will hurt you in other matchups. Yeah nobody plays Grim Monolith but neither does with Tomb, Is that an argument for you? I mentioned it because you seem to seek for more speed mana and casting it with 13-14 lands isn't impossible even under multi-pheres. Thy should it be impossible to cast an 3 mana enchantment under spheres but playing rebuild is fine?
I think you don't understand what is the goal I try to reach. The main objective is to be able to cast all the bombs in turn 2 or 3 consistently. I have played a lot with TPS since the restriction of brainstorm and one of the problems the deck have is that sometimes you do not have the fast mana necessary to cast the bombs in your hands or sometimes you have only fast mana and no bombs. What I tried to accomplish is to cast something relevant in turn 1 or 2 and never have to wait with bombs in hand. Tombs help me to have more mana in turn 2 consistently and help me also when opponent plays null rods. I only cut 1 off color mox of 10 artifact accelerators and add 3 Tombs that could be considered fast mana also so I doubt I am rapping the mana base. About rebuild/energy flux my only comment is that if shop player plays with null rod, spheres and tangle wires you need lot of luck to draw flux and play it. I'm aware of your intention with DA. Having 4 mana on turn 2 is not uncommon even without your tombs. I doubt that drawing 2 additional random cards increse your chances of winning on turn 3 "a lot". That's the reason I mentioned something like Foresee 'cause it digs, filter and draws 2. Your flashback asside.
The flashback part is what make DA resilient to counters and what allow you to draw 2 more cards in turn 3 that together with the 2 drawed the turn before make easy to cast a bomb for the win. Probably 3 are too many, probably 2 are the correct number. But what make good DA is the fact that with this mana base you can consistently play it in turn 2 and flashback in turn 3 with few mana resources. With the repeal thing you got me wrong again. I play repeal to have free draws and gain tempo by bouncing opponents Bobs, oaths, chalices etc. It's not a cards special or MUD even I won with that card against aggro-Workshop decks in the past. They rarely drop 2 spheres on turn 1 so I can play my moxen, paying for each other to lay them down all and so be able to cast flux or something else on turn 2 or 3. Most start with chalice at 0 against unknown opponents, chalice @ 1 against me became kinda rare since the restriction of brainstorm and ponder. chalice for 1 is ok for me shutting off my rituals and my repeals and my topdeckers leaving most mana and buissness untouched till bebuild.
when shop player is on the play a very common start is chalice for 0 and sphere or null rod and sphere. Tell me how you plan to cast flux on turn 2 or 3 when you need 4 lands to do it and probably shop player will play tangle wire or another sphere faster.
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14
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Re: Deck Discussion: DeepTombLong
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on: July 09, 2010, 07:03:58 pm
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So you sacrifice artifact mana to play ancient tombs ... ever drew into a hand of Pearl, Ritual and tomb? You dismiss Mox Emerald and maybe artifact mana like Grim monolith to play non-color-producing lands, that (and I could not disagree more with you) won't be better against shop than basics 'cause they'll be simply dumped by wastelands.
What are you talking about man? I only dismiss Emerald that in a world of Null Rods is not the most useful of the mana sources. Nobody plays Grim Monolith, it was discarded years ago. I think you haven't play enough against new MUD decks with 13 spheres and 4 Null Rod, you don't have the opportunity to play Energy Flux very often. Deep Analysis isn't too hot either, I would go that far and say it's much weaker than Foresee which lacks the raw draw but digs 6 cards deep ... even with flashback DA's far behind that. Masses of cards won't help you alone, you want the right ones. Do you think that a 4 mana card with 2 mana, 3 life, flashback and a land that shocks you for every times used, helps you against multiple spheres .... especially if they have legs and beat for 5? High CC Spells won't help you there.
Deep Analysis is not there to combat Shop decks, is to give a stable draw engine, to support Fow and to help to recover from a bad situation when control deck has counter your first treats. If you can cast DA in turn 2 reliably is much better that you think, increasing your changes of win in turn 3 quite a lot. I'm a raw and ol' schooled TPS player. I don't think that rebuilding the board end of turn will always result in a victory. I have always 3 energy flux in SB and 4 Repeal (yeah I'm from Europe  ) in the main. I can't remember a MUD that recovered from a flux hitting the board cause ... YES YOU CAN ... win without having the board fulll of artifacts for rounds, MUD can't. Sure I don't have to remind you how nice Repeals are to remove chalice, BoB and other shit, being an insane storm enabler too. If you want raw power I suggest 1-2 Call to Mind (I've already started a topic here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40774.0). I found it really impressing in my tests. May this could inspire you. Playing 13-14 land is common in TPS while playing versus masses of MUD, so having your desired 4 mana on turn 2-3 is no problem ... without raping the (artifact-)manabase As I explain before the problem with flux is to cast before you are under a lock, difficult if you are on the draw. And if you think Repeal is very useful against MUD I will tell you that you need to test much more against them. Repeal is very bad against MUD or any workshop deck. It is only useful for chalices and only if they don't put chalice at once, very common playing against combo. I am not newbie player, I started to play in 1994 and restart at 2003 playing without interruption since then. I have played tendrils combo the last 3 years in all his forms, TPS, grim, pitch, IT, bob tendrils, etc. obtaining good results. I have tested the deck against MUD and Noble Fish and it works fine. I am not saying the deck is perfect but what I can say is that has lot of potential. Has very powerful hands and is reliable. If someone try the deck will see quickly what I am talking about. I will add tournament report as soon as I can play in one.
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15
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Eternal Formats / Creative / Deck Discussion: DeepTombLong
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on: July 09, 2010, 07:15:38 am
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After some months of inactivity in magic tournament scene due to personal issues (born of my second daughter) I am planning to return to competition this summer. I continue following the evolution of the game knowing the dominant decks of the moment and showing how my favorite type of deck, storm combo, was losing the battle month to month. With the apparition of Lodestone Golem things still went worse, making to play with combo in a tournament a nightmare of spheres and null rods. I tried bob tendrils, that I think is a good deck that can compete against MUD and Noble Fish, but when playing with it I have the feeling that the deck is turning more slow sacrificing raw power and speed by stability and consistency. It could be a fair exchange but I was trying to find something different, something that remember me the feeling of playing with Pitchlong or Grimlong. With the return of oath as a contender still convinced me more that I need to find something different.
What I observed playing against 13 spheres + null rod MUD was that have 3 or 4 basic lands in the table and the artifact bouncer in hand doesn't warrant you a win. Lot of time I would need one mana more but the time I spent to find the land the opponent kill me or put another sphere in the table and I was in the same situation. Then an idea came to my mind, why not use Ancient Tombs like then to try to break the lock? Tombs as extra lands can help to break lock more than basics , combat pretty well null rod and help the deck to cast the most powerful spells like bargain, gifts, fact or fiction. It was clear that I need to work more in the idea but did not seem so stupid at all.
Other problem I found in storm combo is that since the restriction of brainstorm we don't have a good draw engine. Sometimes our hands are clogged with lot of acceleration and protection and sometimes with bombs but not fast mana. Playing with Ancient Tombs opens the possibilities to construct a draw engine and I thought directly in one card I always loved when playing control but too slow these days. The card is not other than Deep Analysis. With 3 Ancient Tombs and lot of acceleration is very easy to cast it in turn 2 and 3 to refill our hand. It is reliable to counters, you can cast it from graveyard easily and it is blue, very important to support FoW.
So I think at this point I can present the deck, card by card:
Mana Base 4 Polluted Delta 1 Scalding Tarn 1 Flooded Strand 2 Island 1 Swamp 2 Underground Sea 1 Tolarian Academy 3 Ancient Tomb
Accelerators 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Perl 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Vault 1 Sol Ring 4 Dark Ritual
Draw Engine 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Time Walk 1 Thirst for Knowledge 3 Deep Analysis
Bombs 1 Necropotence 1 Tinker 1 Timetwister 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Gifts Ungiven 1 Fact or Fiction 1 Memory Jar 1 Mind's Desire 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
Tutors 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Imperial Seal 1 Mystical Tutor
Protection 4 Force of Will 2 Misdirection 1 Chain of Vapor 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Rebuild
Finishers 2 Tendrils of Agony
Some comments about cards selection - 2 Tendrils are necessary because the loss of life in this deck is very big so you need to find the Tendrils very quick to finish as soon as possible. - No Ponder: I dislike this card more and more every day, is not a brainstorm's substitute, is much worse. You deep 3 cards but if you like 1 you need to keep the other 2 if you do not have any shuffle effect. I used to include it because is blue and until now the number of blue cards was low, but I replace it by Thirst for Knowledge and I am very happy with this change, it has synergy with DA, is card advantage and allow you too renew your hand with 3 new cards. - No Mox Emerald: I need some space to add a thirst Tomb and Mana Vault has more synergy with the rest of the deck. - 0 Cabal Ritual: I never like this card to much and in a world of spheres, spells pierce, etc an accelerator that cost 2 to cast is going to be worse and worse
How the deck plays Well it plays very similar to other storm combo decks like Pitchlong or Grimlong. Try to resolves his bombs as soon as possible and if they are countered try to refill hand with Deep Analysis. It has a very strong turn 2 and 3 but differs from other long decks because can recover better if his first treats are countered. Obviously is more aggressive than TPS or Bob Tendrils, doesn't intent to play the control role, only to win as soon as possible. Against control DA make it very resilient and against Fish Tombs help a lot to play around Null Rod and Spell Pierce. Against Workshop suffers more, like other combo list, but Tombs help to break the lock and after a massive artifact bouncer is easier to win now than with other decks.
I do not have a fixed sideboard, only general lines, nothing special: Islands, Sphinx, some bouncers, Leylines, Jailer
I think the deck has some potential and is something refreshing in an archetype that do not have too much innovations last months. I hope some of you try the deck and contribute to his development.
Cheers
@Mods: was really necessary to "entomb" the post into creative forum so quickly?
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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: TPS players
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on: March 06, 2009, 06:46:25 pm
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I guess those are 2 sample turn 2 necro hands but they seem to be extremely specific to have to make me not go for bargain on turn 2/3 instead. Not to mention the cards you draw have to fall under the same criteria. Maybe you care to explain more in-depth why you would go for the turn 4 win with necro instead of a turn 4 win with DSC?
It's much easier to cast something that cost 3 mana that something that cost 6. Obviously if you have the mana to play Bargain go for it, but if you have to wait 1 or 2 turns to put it into play I prefer go to Necro to take the initiative, very important against control. And the other question is clear also, I prefer necro because drawing 10 o more cards I can protect myself and go for the win while putting DSC on play don't avoid the other player can win before you kill him or that he find an answer for DSC. Playing with 4 Fow is a big different with necro in play.
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Eternal Formats / Ritual-Based Combo / Re: TPS players
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on: March 05, 2009, 07:17:04 pm
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Against control I think the best play is go for Necropotence. It is easy to setup and with it in play and without control player putting pressure on the board you win easily. Going for Necro after first turn duress and putting in play with a ritual in second turn usually is a win.
Twister is not bad against control on the first turns (1st or 2nd), when control player hasn't developed his mana base. Then you can abuse it taking advantage of your acceleration. After that is dangerous because with Mana Drain online and with is draw engine ready he can take more advantage than you, you need luck drawing to abuse it.
Tinker for Colossus is only necessary against Fish and aggro or if there exist something that avoid you to win with Tendrils. I Tinker Colossus against control very few times, and always after seeing his hand and be sure he cannot find and answer. Tinker for Jar is quite good against lot of decks, your opponent only can counter some spells but not take profit of all the cards drawn like you. At worst you can develop your mana base.
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22
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Eternal Formats / Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results / Re: [RESULTS] Catalan vintage league, 6th tournament top8
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on: July 03, 2008, 07:49:21 am
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The pairings were:
Miquel Alcoriza (Bomberman) ------------- Miquel Alcoriza -------- Sergio Perez (Mana Ichorid) --------------- Miquel Alcoriza -------------- Xavier Muntada (UW Fish) ----------------- Tomŕs Winand -------- Tomŕs Winand (Baazar Oath) ------------ Miquel Alcoriza wins Rubén González (Control Slaver) -------- Roberto López ------- Roberto López (Grim Long) --------------- Roberto López ------------- Marc González (TK Deeznoughts) ------- Joan Lava -------------- Joan Lava (Manaless Ichorid) --------------
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23
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] The Tropical Storm (TTS)
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on: April 12, 2008, 03:05:17 pm
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@all: Thanks for the compliments  The only thing I don't like about your list is dropping to 3 Ponders. I'm never disappointed to draw Ponder. There's 3 cards fighting in this final slot then: 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Cabal Rit, and Imperial Seal. Not sure here.
I cut Ponder because I need some space in the main and cannot like to cut disruption or business. I like Ponder, but sometimes I find out that having it in multiples didn't help me as much as I would like if I don't want to shuffle after casting first. It is a good card, but isn't as good as Brainstorm and is more limited. Anyway I don't discard return to 4 Ponder but for the moment I will try with 3. From the 3 cards you propose for replacement the only card I doubt about it is Cabal Ritual, but I'm not sure if after quitting it I can have problems to cast Bargain or to exploit better draw 7. Can your build really keep up with Flash? It seems a little on the slow side with a minimal amount of disruption. Have you tried Mind's Desire? Also, can you post your current sideboard and some general boarding plans vs Oath, Flash, Gat, Stax, and Ichorid?
I'm not sure about Flash match. Until now I haven't had problems with it but I haven't test a lot because in my meta isn't a predominant deck until now. With the current disruption I think you can stop it from winning the first 2 turns and after that you have advantage. After boarding more disruption and Leylines I don't think you have less options. I try Mind's Desire before adding Bargain and I don't have problems to cast it for 6 to 8 storm counts, but more than once I couldn't win after this and I start to think that maybe isn't the card I need. I suppose it was bad luck, but after replacing it with Bargain I don't want to undo this change. Bargain was easy to cast with all the rituals, need less resources to be effective and after casting it you will win almost always. So I discard to replace Bargain with it and I'm not sure about playing with both in this deck because they can clog your hand. I'm working in the sideboard and I not sure about all the cards. For now I'm working with: 4 Leyline of the Void 2 Engineered Explosives 2 Pithing Needle 1 Darksteel Colossus 1 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Extirpate 1-2 Thoughtseize Against Stax I board Explosives, Pithing Needle, Colossus and Hurky's trying to find the tinker path. Against Gat, Oath and similar decks I use Extirpates and some thoughtseize depending of the speed of the deck. Against Ichorid I have lot of cards useful: Leylines, Explosives, Needles Against Flash I put Thoughtseizes and Needles or Explosives depending of the combo used.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] The Tropical Storm (TTS)
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on: April 12, 2008, 08:01:07 am
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Hi guys, I have played this deck since kobefan publish is first list and I was playing similar decks (Gush storm based decks) since the unrestriction of Gush. I dislike the direction where the list is going lately because in my experience is not a good path and I will try to explain why.
Before playing TTS I played Gush Tendrils (with 4 Merchant Scrolls and no Necropotence) and I have some good results but I dislike the dependence of the Fastbond and Gush engine. If you didn't find Fastbond quickly or the opponent nullify Gush (with Extirpates for exemple) it was very difficult to win. In return you have some spectacular games winning in first or second turns.
I started playing TTS because it wasn't as dependent about Fastbond as Gush Tendrils and because Necropotence is really a bomb that can winning you a lot of games.
With the initial list I dislike Tinker-Jar because his inconsistency in this deck, sometimes you don't have the artifact, some times after activation you didn't find enough gas to win, etc. I started to explore possibilities and try some Merchant Scrolls, Scroll Rack, Infernal Contract, Night Whisper, etc. After trying this draw spells I found out that the deck see a lot of cards but have few bombs and an intelligent opponent can avoid then I win you in the middle game. I come to the conclusion that if you spend the first turns trying to draw cards and casting Merchant Scrolls to try to combo out after controlling the first turns Empty Gush is a much better deck to do this.
So I start again to include some more bombs in the deck. I try Gifst Ungiven, Fact or Fiction and Doomsday. I discard Fact early because is cost and because isn't a bomb really, you don't win after calling it. Gifts were better but is casting cost can be problematic sometimes and the only combination I find a winner one was that involve Necro, Lotus and 2 tutors supposing you have enough life to exploit Necropotence. Doomsday is different. I was one of the first to test it after some Spanish boy start to use it. It wins now if you have the correct cards in your hand and it is really a bomb. But the problem I find is that when you have it you play around it, trying to protect it and searching the cards needed to combo (dark ritual and gush or brainstorm and some protection). This strategy delay you one or two turns a lot of games and could make easy the game to your opponent. The Spanish boy who start to play with it play also 2 Xantids making is use more safe. My conclusion was that isn't a bad card but the delay required to be sure you don't lost using it don't worth it.
Then I need some more bombs and I try again with Memory Jar and Tinker but trying to built the deck to exploit more this bomb. To do it I added more permanent artifacts, replacing Petal with Crypt, and replacing off color moxes with Sol Ring and Vault. This make the deck more explosive and then I added one more bomb that I could't play before because his cost, Bargain. I added also a Cabal Ritual to facilitate the casting of the Bargain. With this configuration I find the deck is more explosive, casting always something relevant in turn 2 or 3 and is more consistent that Super Long because have Gush to recover quickly.
This is the list I am playing at present:
Mana Sources 3 Polluted Delta 3 Flooded Strand 3 Underground Sea 3 Island 1 Tropical Island 1 Back Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Vault 4 Dark Ritual 1 Cabal Ritual
Draw Engine 4 Brainstorm 3 Ponder 4 Gush 1 Time Walk
Bombs and Tutors 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmouth's Will 1 Timetwister 1 Tinker 1 Memory Jar 1 Yawgmouth's Bargain 1 Fastbond 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Imperial Seal
Defense 4 Force of Will 4 Duress 1 Thoughtseize 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Echoing Truth
Finisher 1 Tendrils of Agony
Just my two cents.
Roberto.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gush TPS: another look
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on: October 29, 2007, 02:24:33 pm
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Shouldn't the Mystical have gotten countered, then?
Sure, I suppose I don't cast mystical, I don't remember very well. At this moment my library was very thin and it was probably that I draw it directly from Baazar without any tutor.
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28
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gush TPS: another look
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on: October 29, 2007, 08:59:51 am
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This past weekend I have the opportunity of test my deck after some weeks of tunning. It was in a 67 people tournament corresponding with the 10th tournament of the "Liga Catalana de Vintage" (Vintage Catalan League). The deck ran very well all the day and I finish in Top 4 after losing to GAT in semifinals.
The deck I play was:
Mana sources 3 Polluted Delta 3 Flooded Strand 3 Underground Sea 3 Island 1 Tropical Island 1 Volcanic Island 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emeral 1 Mox Ruby 2 Dark Ritual
Draw engine 2 Bazaar of Baghdad 1 Ancestral Recall 4 Brainstorm 4 Merchant Scroll 1 Time Walk 2 Impulse 1 Timetwister 1 Windfall 4 Gush
Tutors 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Imperial Seal 1 Mystical Tutor
Bombs 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Fastbond
Disruption 4 Force of Will 4 Duress
Defense 1 Chain of Vapor 1 Echoing Truth
Finishers 1 Tendrils of Agony 1 Empty the Warrens
Sideboard 2 Red Elemental Blast 2 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Ancient Grudge 1 Empty the Warrens 1 Tinker 1 Darksteel Colossus 2 Pyroclasm 4 Leyline of the Void 1 Trickbind
My level of english isn't good enough to do a detailed report of the tournament but I will try to do a mini report with my matches and my impressions.
Round 1 - Combo with Tendrils (I don't know if TPS or something similar, I didn't see Grim Tutors or Cabal Rituals) The two games were similar. My opponent starts developing some mana but no business and after some disruption for my part I combo out with Fastbond, Gushes and Yawgmoth's without opposition. 1-0-0
Round 2 - UW Fish The first game start with him playing some small criatures but without enough pressure to worry me and I combo out with fastbond and Yawgmoth's in turn 4 or 5. The next two games went very bad to me. I have average initial hands and he start as always with some creatures. He tries to attack my mana base but I have enough lands to avoid it. But the problems was that I didn't draw enough business spells and after 5 or 6 turns I was in very critical situation and has to try to combo out desperately and the two times I failed. 1-1-0
Round 3 - UW Fish First game I draw very well with Fastbond , Gush, some lands, Merchant Scroll and Fow. I don't remember if I combo out first or second turn but I didn't have any opportunity to do something. I lost second game after some mana denial for his part and some Grunt hitting me for a pair of turns. The last game he has a good defensive hand with counters and stifle but without creatures. After some draw and go after wasting our hands I have enough business spells to put 14 goblin tokens and after some desperate turns from my opponent I win the match. 2-1-0
Round 4 - Urbana Fish He starts with Confident but after 2 turns I have a very good hand and I combo out via Yawgmoth's without much problems. Second game I draw the nuts and I put 20 tokens in the first turn so I finished the next one. 3-1-0
Round 5 - Control Slaver with Metalwolker-Staff combo The first game was interesting. He tried to control the situation with a first turn Welder but I ruined his plan duressing his only castable artifact in hand (Sol Ring) and making useless his Tolarian Academy. After a pair of turns he cast Thirst of Knowledge discarding a Titan and put it in play but I only have an island, the rest were fetches, so I didn't lost enough lands to put in danger my position. At the end of his turn I mysticaled for Yawgmoth's and I combo out with duress and Fow protection. Second game was very quickly with him combo out on turn 2 with Metalwolker and Staff (what the fuck!). This surprised me a lot and after his first turn Metalwolker I couldn't do anything to avoid loss this game. In the third game I started with a very control hand with duress and Fow and controlled the game. He has Metalwolkers but no more business in hand. After some turns hitting me with Workers we enter on turns. He walked to steal me a turn so I have to try to combo out in my last turn. I play Gush, Bazaared and play Brainstorm before I saw Yawgmoth's and combo out in extremis. 4-1-0
Round 6 - Bomberman with counterbalance I play against a very slow opponent that insisted in shuffling intensively my deck each time I play a fetch or a tutor and with 14 shuffle effects in my deck this was a lot. The first game started with a duress from my part discarding a Brainstorm instead of a Counter Balance that would cost me the game after. He has a slow hand and I tried to putting pressure casting an Empty the Warrens of 2 but he show me his first card in the library and was a Savager (he have casted Counter Balance previously) so I only put 2 tokens, insufficient for my plans. He plays Savager in his turn and I decided to try to combo out in my turn with Yawgmoth's. It was a little risky because if he discovers his first card and her casting cost was 3 I will lost but if not I was sure he will combo the next turn. He tries to cast brainstorm but I cast Fow and then he show me the first card directly and obviously have 3 casting cost so I was dead. He combo next turn as I though. The second game was very quickly because I know that if I didn't play fast I won't have time to finish it. I risk a little and combo out in second turn with Fastbond and Yawgmoth's. Just then arrive the judge and said time so we didn't start the third. 4-1-1
Round 7 - Mud I know he played Workshops so I was prepared to suffer in my last match to try to get the top 8. He start dropping 1 Wasteland, 2 Moxes and a Sphere. I didn't have Fow (I mulligated to 6) but have enough lands to play things. He plays another Sphere and I play a dual land on my second turn to try to force him to sacrifice Wasteland (he haven't drop any land his turn). He did it and I gushed saving my land and leaving him with only 2 moxes with 2 Spheres in play. After some more turns when I develop my table with more lands and moxes and a lot of business in my hands he conceded. The second game was very quickly. He mulligated to 6 and started with Wasteland, Black Lotus and Metalwalker. I have first turn Fastbond, two lands and Gush so I will draw to show what I get and try to combo out or return to his hands the Metalwalker with a Chain of Vapor. I draw very well and combo out in the firts turn after some gushing, scrolling and a Yawgmoth's Will. 5-1-1
Finally I have finished 4 in the Swiss after suffering a lot in some moments.
Top 8 - 5-colors Stax with Metalwalker-Staff combo Another hard pairing. This time I win the dice (my second time of the day) and I will start in a very important match. I draw very well and started with Mox Emeral, Fastbond, Tropical, Fetch, Merchant to Gush, Gush, replay lands and I play Impulse sawing another Gush. Gushed again and saw another land so I play Windfall and draw another 7. I combo out soon after with Yawgmoth's Will and a Tendrils of 40 o more and my opponent desperate without playing any turn. Second game wasn't as good for me and I conceded after my opponent were in a dominant position with a Welder and 2 Spheres on the table. The third game didn't start very well for me. I have to mulligan to 6 and I don't have a very good hand with only 1 land and Lotus and some defensive spells (Hurky's and Ancient Grudge) but withou business. He plays a Trinisphere and Staff of Domination but didn't pressure hard. He cast Chalice of 1 but I was confused and Though it was at 2 so I sacrifice Lotus and play Ancient Grudge against his Trinisphere. I haven't enough lands and with the Chalice at 1 I can cast any card of my hand. I drop Bazaar and start to cycling my hand. He drops a Wolker and I thoughs I was lost but he don't have enough artifacts in hand. After some turns with my cycling my deck and him drawing without seeing enough artifacts he plays Tinker to Jar. If he draws 3 artifact I lost but fortunately for me he didn't and give me the turn. I draw mystical, cast it and put Yawgmoth's on top drawing it with Bazaar. I cast it and have enough mana to cast Hurky's from my graveyard. I know he has to have 2 or 3 reb in his hand but this chalice at 1 finally save me because I can play the Hurky's protected. I don't have more mana but I have to drop a land for the turn and casted Fastbond with it. I combo out after some spells a little after. My opponent was a little angry with his luck and I understand him but inconsistency was the main problem of 5 color Stax, and more with Metalwoker-Staff combo. Not enough artifacts, a lot of 1 man plays (welders, rebs, ancestral, sol ring, vault, etc.)
Semifinals - GAT (with only 3 Dryads, no Tog and Tendrils has alternative finisher) This match was very intense, with a lot of alternatives but a lot of sportmanship from both players. the match we always like to play. He started with a very good hand, duressing my Ancestral and casting mystical in response to my duress. After he plays a Dryad and cast Ancestral I was in a very bad position. He grows the Dryad until 8 or 9 but I return then to his hand with a Chain of Vapor. But hi has Regrowth, Time Walk and Yawgmoth's so I couldn't abort his win. The second game start very well for me, with Lotus Petal, Mox Emerald, Lotus and Twister but I don't have protection so I prefer to cast a Brainstorm first. I saw Mox Jet, Duress and Force of Will. Things started to look well. I cast Duress and Twister and draw another 7 cards with four mana sources in play, isn't bad. I combo out soon after. We started the third and final game. Both started slow, trying to control the game. He started with Library but after I duress him next turn and couldn't activate library. Soon after he extirpated my Gushes so I lost my first draw engine. I saw and empty so my plan was to cast some goblinks to pressuring him. I tutor for Lotus and play Empty for 10 tokens. He scrolled to Echoing Truth and return my tokens the turn after but emptying his hand. We draw and go a pair of turns and I try again with Empty. He only has 1 card in hand so it was the moment. Next turn he cast duress and gave me the turn. I hit with goblins leaving him at 6. But unfortunately for me his other card was Yawgmoth's so he recast Ancestral, Gush and Echoing and kill my tokens having seven cards in hand. I don't have enough mana to win but was in a very good position. I only have 1 card but he had only 6 life so I can cast a mini tendrils and win. But he draws a lot of disruption (2 Duress and 1 Mana Drain) and I cannot cast any spell. Finally he cast Fastbond and a mini Tendrils for 6 and replay Tendrils with Regrowth killing me. And incredible game that I though was mine in more than one instant but finally I lost to a very good playerd and very nice person.
Conclusions The deck run very well, with a very solid mana base that allow you to deploy all your game without problems and with a very good draw engine that make you draw a lot of cards until you find what you need to win. I want to make special emphasis in the capacity that have this deck to recover from bad positions and how well it is when you need to combo out just in this turn or lost. The deck rewards taking risks more than others and no fizzle as often as other combo decks.
Some info about the tournament 67 players, 7 rounds of Swiss Metagame with lots of Stax,fish and goblins and some gat, control and combo. Top 8 was: 2 Stax, 2 Bomberman, 1 Urbana fish, 1 GAT, 1 Ichorid, 1 Gush Tendrils
Roberto.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gush TPS: another look
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on: October 15, 2007, 07:31:28 pm
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Are you guys still running just 11 lands? I've found 12 lands to be the bare minimum in any deck running multiple Gush. I'd be running 13 lands in a deck like this.
Personally I play 14 lands and I consider 13 the minimum lands I will play in a deck like this. My current mana base is: 3 Polluted Delta 3 Flooded Strand 3 Underground Sea 3 Island 1 Tropical Island 1 Volcanic Island 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emeral 1 Mox Ruby 2 Dark Ritual I'm very happy with this mana base. It is very stable and I haven't problems to find the proper color when I need it. I used to play with 13 lands but I found that the mulligans were very dangerous, forced to keep 6 card suboptimal hands because mulligating to less than 6 made impossible to find the necessary lands.
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Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: Gush TPS: another look
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on: October 15, 2007, 05:36:38 pm
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I don't think Gifts fit well in this deck. It is a good card and when you resolve it you are ahead of your opponent but in this deck with so few mana producers isn't easy to cast. This deck isn't a control deck that can wait until play a Gifts on the opponent's turn and then try to combo out in your turn. Very often Gifts will clog your hand and the best use you will find will be to pitch to Fow. In my experience what the deck needs to work properly is not to have any card with converted mana cost bigger than 3, except finishers. This philosophy makes the deck flow very well and never have cards that clog your hand.
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