What if the 2 people had a child while they were in the room. YOUR STORY HAS HOLES MENEDIAN.

on a happier note this thread has made me want to play vintage again.

if there is alot of oath in your meta, try phyrexian tower, also you can side in EE against them to kill spirit tokens and moxes. Snuff out cant kill either blightsteel or emrakul, so im not a fan. I was going to tell you that mox diamond was horrible in a deck with 22 lands but you figured it out yourself .  I feel bad for people in no-proxy land( i actually have the whole deck, but i diddnt always). when i first created this deck imperial seal was 300 dollars cheaper than it is today. Thanks EDH.

Im Planeswalking the season, i have 9 weekends straight of GPs + PTQs. No Time for vintage.

Calling someone on the internet a cunt doesn't make you a misogynist, it makes you an internet user.  Consider this disclaimer from a particularly notorious board that shall remain unnamed:

"The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."

In actuality it applies to most of the internet, including the places where Tait's "evidence" comes from: Twitter and Memegenerator.  To take what is tantamount to the bathroom grafitti of the internet and pin it to the backs of gamers(a phenomenally diverse group of people) or "gamer culture" is unfair and makes for a shitty argument.

dismember is the worst snuff out i have ever seen in my life. Cant cast it t1 after they play lodestone.

this is what i would play as of innistrad
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine
11 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 Jailer
2 null rod
3 Mental Misstep
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
1 Pithing Needle
1 diabolic edict
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt

"Alyssa deserved some public disapproval for her crass and frivolous post, but the attacks on her personal worth/virtue/appearance, and on women in general, were inappropriate, and should also be denounced."

innapproprate for what?
Memegenerator?
the "evidence" cited in this article is a joke. Things people say anonymously or pseudo-anonymously on the internet are not reflective of their actual behavior.  So someone called her a cunt on the internet? Deal with it. Every single public figure in the world gets called a cunt or a faggot thousands of times a day on the internet somewhere.  If you want to make the point that gamers are somehow mysognyist, then have some compelling evidence to back that up, not anecdotal bullshit.  The memegenerator pictures coupled with the "females in fighting games are wearing few clothes" argument (after all our attitudes towards women are determined by the costume of fictional characters in entertainment) completely discredits the rest of the article.

.yes but your opp is more "stuck" than you. You are beating down for 2 while your opp cant tap his wasteland.  You are drawing to 4 wastes, strip, and 4 tutors, vs your opps 3 wastes and a strip. Another hexmage doesn't stop waste if your opponent knows what they are doing. If they are an idiot, go for it.

Also Liliana is happening.
That is all.

Generally speaking control decks were a tough sell for PT philly specifically, as the format continues to shake out(and people realize that cloudpost is pretty bad) control decks will emerge.

Ive never lost after resolving necropotence in the early game.  My guess is that you aren't being aggressive enough with it.    I generally necro for 7 or 9 first. All you need is a duress + some way to get the combo together. Which should be no problem in that many cards.  The necro lines get VERY complicated, but the raw power of the card is such that I would never cut it.

there is no such thing as an "organic" format.  All formats are created by humans and are equally arbitrary.

GL to glackin, hornung, and the other Mr Brown

I would now be including darkblast in the sb for sure with the renewed presence of bob and the 4 revokers in the cat stax decks.

I, Maxwell Robert Brown, will be attending this Magic: The Gathering(TM) Vintage Format Tournament.

Okay there is a lot to unpack here. Lets talk first about obeyline.  I've said previously in this thread that the deck functions fine without it, but lets look at the reasoning FOR it to understand what it does.  Please understand that fundamentally every deck in my opinion is a 75, not a 60 meaning that you have to view the inclusion of leyline as being "cheaper" in oppurtunity cost because it gives you 5 free sideboard slots,  This deck would want to be playing 6-7 dedicated dredge SB cards if not for the MD leyline.  This means that if you want to include tarmogoyfs lets say, those goyfs come at the expense not of leylines but of 5 other SB cards that need to be cut to make room for the leylines(and helm, which if you are playing leyline is certainly worth the inclusion) in the board.  In terms of obeyline's functionality in the deck itself, it Significantly increases the power of the tutors. With leyline out, every tutor is lethal.  The more I play with the deck the the more I feel that basically the cards that correlate highest with winning are the tutors(especially Consultation).  The most important skill in playing this deck above Everything else, is to understand what your opponents gameplan is, and figure out if you need to disrupt it(and how to disrupt it) OR race it (and how to race it) In general your opponents deck will be fundamentally unable to BEAT your combo, they have to race it(storm, dredge) Counter it(blue decks) or prevent it from happening(stax) Generally speaking you want to disrupt the race decks, race the stax deck, and decide to disrupt OR race based on duresses against the blue decks.  

Aside on the blue decks:
That last part  of the last section understanding when to race or disrupt a blue deck is the single most important and also the hardest thing to learn, you need to step into their shoes and try and understand the capabilities of their hand, are they threatening tinker, jace, vault/key, a huge yawgs will?  Use your duresses to channel your opponents lines of play towards something you can beat(eg, taking the jace you cant beat vs the tinker when you have edict in your hand, even if you have to fade a counter on their drawstep and they can't cast their jace yet), its much better to have your opp down a jace and a tinker + mox, then to have edict in hand vs their jace.  In general you will find the strongest play by not worrying about their draw step, trying to beat everything is a big big mistake, this deck is designed to exploit holes in the format(lack of ways to kill an indestructible 20/20 token) but its Also designed to attack vulnerabilities that your opponents decks will present through natural variations in their draws,  if it seems feasible I almost always go for the manascrew my opponent line,  ESPECIALLY if I have access to bob which can quickly roll up your tempoary advantage into ending the game with null rod(which you will already have as the "manascrew them" line of play almost always involves null rod) + striplock or making a 20/20.  While some games against blue decks(especially ones with bob) can turn into true grinds, this deck is not a control deck, the disruption is meant to be unbalancing, not game ending.  Trading card for card against a blue deck(unless you have confidant) going long is suicide in a deck filled with dark rituals, redundant leylines, and legendary lands etc.  The control matchup usually hinges on creating a "shields down" moment where they just die, and with a good hand this moment comes as early as turn 1 or 2.


  The problem with tarmogoyf specifically especially against stax is that you cannot ever cast him on turn 1 without a mox or lotus and that he wont beat down especially hard until the midgame.  Most of the best starts this deck has involve ritual(or lotus).  Against stax i would probably rather have Negator in my deck than tarmogoyf, that way if i win the die roll I could actually get a big threat down turn 1.  I mean realistically how big is goyf going to be against stax? I agree that both the DD combo and obeyline include the vulnerability that they require you to cast spells, but they dont actually require more spells then tarmogoyf, DD doesn't care about spheres(and hexmage costs the same as goyf), and leyline comes down turn 0.  Ive beaten stax a few times by going T0 leyline and then tutoring up lotus and jet so i could assemble enough mana to cast helm through spheres.  Spheres themselves are not especially good vs this deck, since you have enough basic lands to beat them going long, and wastelands to disrupt their mana under their own spheres, the problem is spheres + clock.  The games where I beat workshops generally are the ones where im going first and play some mana accelerator on the play(or thoughtseize their golem), and on the draw where they keep an all spheres + no pressure hand and  we both flood out and they cant stick a threat. The most germane question to ask is weather goyf helps you in in the other games, meaning ones where they have spheres + pressure. Generally no, and the card you want in those situations is either mana crypt or snuff out.  If they have no spheres(or just thorns) and are all slash panthers, then hexmage is what you want, since it it laughs at slash panther(even better than goyf, which would trade with it in most situations(assuming land + sorcery +  artifact).

Regarding the extra tutors, I think they could be included but only along with more permanant mana sources.  the deck as built right now is designed to operate on only 2 lands(with burts of mana provided by ritual/lotus)  Adding 3 mana tutors requires a commitment to playing additional swamps or mana crypt/sol ring if you want rystic tutor.

Regarding Chains of mephestopheles:I used to play it back in the day,  is terrible unless you are playing against a lot of remora decks. Remember it does nothing to Bob.  Generally speaking vintage is a format of extreme card power disparity: the blue decks are designed to find and play a few specific powerful cards/combos so "pure" card advantage is quite weak, this is why we are maxed out on duresses instead of say hymns: the duress is ALWAYS going to stop that tinker.

regarding Hex parasite: I think its fineand it has alot of cool synergies with the deck and format(slow motioning comboing off your DD for only 10 mana over turns, while beating down for example, eating opposing wires and turning their smokestack into a sphere, eating jace etc)  Of these interactions it feels to me like Blue decks and dredge are resurgent and Workshops are declining or getting less disruptive and more agressive(slash panther) to combat jace.  All of this is VERY good for us as the deck is "naturally" good against jace: 8 duresses, 4 hexmages and a combo that once in play cannot be interacted with by the blue decks generally. In situations where you have hex/DD in play opposing jaces generally do nothing. They can brainstorm into timewalk but all that does is give them more shots at vault/key(which is usually their only MD out).  If they have jace + timewalk before activating jace that is bad, but if you have the read that they have timewalk then you can kill the jace in response to the jace bounce instead of making the 20/20 to deprive them of their timewalk turn jace activation, if they have no other action then time walk itself isn't especially good.  The worst things they could have are chain of vapor and repeal, luckily these are are pretty unpopular choices, especially given how awful repeal is vs shops, even if they have them you are redrawing to duress/seize to clear those away and still applying pressure with 2/1 beatdown(which wins a surprising number of games).

Update regarding combo timing vs shops:  Since they now have metamorph(to legend rule marit lage) it isn't always strictly correct to combo on your turn, but is generally still correct to do so(as they are much more likely to have a waste or strip then a metamorph[most builds arent playing 4] + 3 mana).  If you know they have metamoph and the mana to cast it(but had to duress away wire on t1 for example) then you have to wait and fade waste/strip off the top. If you don't know their hand but YOU have a wasteland, it is now correct to wait. as you can just waste their waste in their end step before comboing.  Having your combo sitting there "squaring off" against their wasteland is fine, as you are drawing to waste + strip + ghost quarter(postboard)+ any tutor + needle + sometimes crucible if you have already used a waste previously.

Hope this was helpful

Next vintage tournament I play (prob the Grudge Match 3) I will keep a detailed record and post a report and maybe go into how i feel the deck is in the current meta(better than 3 months ago, for sure), maybe i will be able to provide specific insights on play(i have trouble explaining how to play the deck well on a forum, The sample hands was my effort to do so previously, but this deck is very nonlinear with all the tutors, and even I struggle with what to get sometimes).  The more the format degenerates into blue decks trying to out-blue one another, the better this deck is.  The sideboard needs a revamp from previous lists that were focused on beating workshops exclusively, and i feel safe cutting the snuff out from the main(which was a concession to lodestone).  My read against the new faster blue decks is the following:
Null rod is better than ever
Pointed discard is better than ever(as decks become more explosive, they lean harder on specific cards to give their hands substance)
If the workshop decks are playing slash panther, that is AMAZING for us.

I went undefeated in the swiss then lost to miastrano in 2 games where he basically just had better draws then me(whatever it happens, the last few times ive played against him I flat out crushed him, with absurd draws, so he was "due"), although i think i probably misplayed the first game and could have won if i had played a different land on my turn 3.   Not even going to attempt a real report, as i dont remember anything.

i think it is pretty funny that if this becomes a staple sideboard card in legacy, everyone will have to buy 2x commander decks each.

Id try and find room for a pithing needle somewhere in the maindeck for this stoneforge-infested format

hell yes.


Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 Sun Titan
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Woodfall Primus

Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below

Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Sorceries
4 Breakthrough
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return

Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Serenity
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

me and jake top32'd playing dredge. woo

yea, Ill be there. After im miss day 2 in the last round, Maybe ill be doing some sanctioned vintage for a box.

I have on several occasions "let" my opponent tinker, instead taking a force with my duress effect, because I have edict in hand. As good as tinker is, remember it is still card disadvantage.  Games where you answer tinker are usually wins.  In general though I would almost never keep a hand without a turn 1 play.  Swamp, go is an exceedingly weak opener.  1 damage is worth almost nothing in a deck which can only deal damage in increments of 2 and 20.

geth's verdict is a no-go for sure.  The amount of times where you cast edict off a colorless mana far exceeds the amount of time 1 damage will matter, in a deck that wins most of it's games by swinging with a 20/20.

as far moving obeyline to the sideboard, sure. Ive said before in this thread it is a metagame call.

I would say going forward to anyone working on this deck: DO NOT CUT any of the tutors, never cut seal, and never ever ever cut consultation.  The ability to play consultation is perhaps the best reason to play this deck at all, as it is probably the most powerful card in vintage short of will, recall and lotus.

hex parasite is a very real card.

Splitting is like 4 tik profit in a DE. I would split if i had anything else to do.

New Post up all about Legacy Dredge Offline, check it out if you are interested in the Legacy Format.

New Post about Avoiding Punts in Momir.

New Post up about Momir Manabases:
Check it out.

http://momirbasic.blogspot.com