The Dark Times Primer

[Eastman]

Hex parasite seems pretty good here, as others have said.

Gitaxian probe is also intriguing.  Helps provide the info that is so crucial in a tricky deck like this, and I think could put the blue count into a range to support FoW.  FoW is the best card in the format so it is always a good add.  I wonder how a dark times list with the blue restricted cards, FoW, and gitaxian probe would run.  Could get by with some fetches and a couple u. seas since the probe and FoW wouldn't actually cost U.  

I know leyline helps in the ichorid matchup, but does it really warrant the maindeck space here?  If I were adding blue it would be the first thing to go.  

To answer the obvious question of why dark times would be better than oath in a blue-ish list -- oath can't run dark confidant.  

[Stormanimagus]

Hex parasite seems pretty good here, as others have said.

Gitaxian probe is also intriguing.  Helps provide the info that is so crucial in a tricky deck like this, and I think could put the blue count into a range to support FoW.  FoW is the best card in the format so it is always a good add.  I wonder how a dark times list with the blue restricted cards, FoW, and gitaxian probe would run.  Could get by with some fetches and a couple u. seas since the probe and FoW wouldn't actually cost U.  

I know leyline helps in the ichorid matchup, but does it really warrant the maindeck space here?  If I were adding blue it would be the first thing to go. 

4 Probe + 4 FoW +1 Ancestral +1 Time Walk = only 10 cards
that's about 8 short of minimum blue count. What other blue cards were you planning to add?

[Eastman]

I tend to think 14 is the minimum.  4 Probe, 4 FoW, Ancestral, Walk, brainstorm, ponder, would be the first in.  Could definitely fill it out with preordain as necessary.  I would also consider a hurkyls as a tutor target.

Edit: not saying I am certain this would work.  But probe and preordain weren't really available when the deck was first conceived, and with them around it may be practicable to build a FoW list.  Worth some thought is all. 

[Stormanimagus]

I tend to think 14 is the minimum.  4 Probe, 4 FoW, Ancestral, Walk, brainstorm, ponder, would be the first in.  Could definitely fill it out with preordain as necessary.  I would also consider a hurkyls as a tutor target.

Edit: not saying I am certain this would work.  But probe and preordain weren't really available when the deck was first conceived, and with them around it may be practicable to build a FoW list.  Worth some thought is all. 

14 is never acceptable IMO. I'm not an expert on probabilities or anything like that but if you want to cast 2 FoW's pretty early in the game 14 cards gives you a lot of inconsistencies. Only time I'd even consider going as low as 14 is in a combo deck where you only ever trying to win in 1 turn. This deck is sorta combo/control so I think the blue count would have to be higher than 14. I don't think this deck needs to splash for FoW honestly. If it does then why not just play Jace-Vault instead ya know? It makes better use of restricted blue spells I think. Or TPS? Or Bob Tendrils?

[Eastman]

I tend to think 14 is the minimum.  4 Probe, 4 FoW, Ancestral, Walk, brainstorm, ponder, would be the first in.  Could definitely fill it out with preordain as necessary.  I would also consider a hurkyls as a tutor target.

Edit: not saying I am certain this would work.  But probe and preordain weren't really available when the deck was first conceived, and with them around it may be practicable to build a FoW list.  Worth some thought is all. 

14 is never acceptable IMO. I'm not an expert on probabilities or anything like that but if you want to cast 2 FoW's pretty early in the game 14 cards gives you a lot of inconsistencies. Only time I'd even consider going as low as 14 is in a combo deck where you only ever trying to win in 1 turn. This deck is sorta combo/control so I think the blue count would have to be higher than 14. I don't think this deck needs to splash for FoW honestly. If it does then why not just play Jace-Vault instead ya know? It makes better use of restricted blue spells I think. Or TPS? Or Bob Tendrils?

Jace-vault, TPS, and Bob Tendrils are drastically different decks than dark times, so I don't know how to answer your last question.  And I guess we just disagree on the number of blue cards you need in order to work FoW.   I see the goal as only casting one, so that may be part of it.   I may test this out a little bit and if so will report back on how it goes. 

[Stormanimagus]

I tend to think 14 is the minimum.  4 Probe, 4 FoW, Ancestral, Walk, brainstorm, ponder, would be the first in.  Could definitely fill it out with preordain as necessary.  I would also consider a hurkyls as a tutor target.

Edit: not saying I am certain this would work.  But probe and preordain weren't really available when the deck was first conceived, and with them around it may be practicable to build a FoW list.  Worth some thought is all. 

14 is never acceptable IMO. I'm not an expert on probabilities or anything like that but if you want to cast 2 FoW's pretty early in the game 14 cards gives you a lot of inconsistencies. Only time I'd even consider going as low as 14 is in a combo deck where you only ever trying to win in 1 turn. This deck is sorta combo/control so I think the blue count would have to be higher than 14. I don't think this deck needs to splash for FoW honestly. If it does then why not just play Jace-Vault instead ya know? It makes better use of restricted blue spells I think. Or TPS? Or Bob Tendrils?

Jace-vault, TPS, and Bob Tendrils are drastically different decks than dark times, so I don't know how to answer your last question.  And I guess we just disagree on the number of blue cards you need in order to work FoW.   I see the goal as only casting one, so that may be part of it.   I may test this out a little bit and if so will report back on how it goes. 

I meant that IF you are going to play a deck that fully utilizes FoW why not play one that is more centered around blue and Yawgmoth's will. You see, my thinking is that generally FoW is a card used to protect bombs and to control broken 1st and 2nd turn plays. Some decks utilize it for a different purpose (Noble Fish, for instance), but generally that is its function. Dark Times is a tempo deck that would have to bend over backwards to support FoW so I'm just not seeing what good it could do the deck. And when I say "why not just play deck X?" I am merely pointing out that by supporting FoW in Dark Times you'll basically be tearing the deck apart so why even play Dark Times? Even making 14 slots makes you sacrifice critical slots in the deck. I think the discussion should less be on the potential of Gitaxian probe in the deck and more on the following toys:

1. Geth's Verdict (better Edict for this deck though BB can be a problem occasionally if you run full Wasteland + DD)
2. Phyrexian Obliterator (BBBB might be prohibitive but might warrant some testing)
3. Hex Parasite (I was really into this card at first, but now he's seeming kinda average when you consider that he only gets pumped WHEN you actually remove counters and only for as many counters as you removed)
4. Surgical Extraction (Probably just SB, but might be a MD 1-of in the right metagame)

[Random Noob]

This is where my testings lead me to.

// Lands
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Dark Depths
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    8 Swamp

// Creatures
    4 Vampire Hexmage
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Death's Shadow
    4 Hex Parasite
    2 Phyrexian Obliterator/Will/Edict/Darkblast/Sad Sac/Lotus Petal/Tendrils

// Spells
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Necropotence
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Demonic Consultation
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Duress
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Null Rod
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter

The Parasite is a Key not to lose instantly against a Chalice@2, with some Death's Shadow you sometimes don't have to care about the Chalice @2. The Death's Shadow are somkinda techy with the Parasite, and with out them, the Parasite woul be a too weak card against Drains. The Revoker gives you the Board Control, and get advantage of the Duresses so that you can play it on the go with a Rit.

I board against Drains, Gush and Tps (and faster) the Parasite Shadow tech against a Playset Null Rods, to stabilize in these Match ups post board. Against the Mud Player who will likely say Chalice 1 after facing a Parasite, gets my Null Rod Plan. A real Prob i cared sleepless nights about, is that a Duplicanted Shadow gets him a 13/13 and the Phyrexian Metamorph on our Revoker is also a Problem.

I guess there are some Cards you would like to Change, but for me the Shell worked out quite well.

[Stormanimagus]

I have a ruling question on Hex Parasite. Sorry in advance for sounding at all like a noob. K, here goes:

If my opponent has an active smokestack and I have a parasite out can I respond to sac trigger on my upkeep and remove all counters in order to effectively sac nothing? In other words, if I tap out the turn that I play hex parasite can I follow up by burning mana on the upkeep that I am to sac in order to avoid saccing? I realize that the trigger still goes on the stack from smokestack, but doesn't it check the number of soot counters again upon resolution? And since my activated ability is in response to the trigger I am first to resolve on the stack yes?

Here's another wrinkle. What if I have Dark confidant out and my opponent has 2 soot counters and I don't have the mana to remove both but I reveal a ritual from confidant. I don't reveal that ritual before the sac trigger has already resolved so I can't then use it to make mana for the parasite right?

Like the opponent (shop play with active smokestack) gets to put upkeep triggers on the stack first in the order of his/her choosing so IF he/she has say a Smokestack @1 and a Tangle Wire @4 he/she can go:

1. Tangle Wire Trigger on the stack
2. Smokestack Trigger on the stack

after I have already put the confidant trigger on the stack. So if I am to respond I have to respond before the resolution of Smokestack (in order to avoid sac-ing) and thus do not get to see or use the card revealed by confidant.

Let me know if I have this all wrong please. Thanks!

-Storm

[vrl]

i cant see a reason to add a new color to this deck. my opinion is staying monoblack as our worst matchup remains MUD. why offer new targets to waste/strip effects? the real power this deck has is its basic lands. even fetchlands would have a negative effect.
i believe that the card we must consider is hex parasite: clearly an auto include (probably as a 2 of) and perharps a substitution to emissary of despair as i can see.
pretty much interesting is the card dismember. this may be a candidate of snuff out slot. it hits lodestone (the main reason snuff out made the list), precursor golem, metalworker, steel hellkite (same as snuff out), doesnt hit wurmcoil engine, tarmo (an obvious drawback to snuff out) but it kills opposing confidants. Probably the last wont make the difference including it but it reserves a mention to this thread.
one other card is phyrexian metamorph. again, a card that could battle for the snuff out slot. considering snuff out is used vs fish and MUD this card can be played for its cost vs 8/13 of the resistors and can be a potential target for lodestone, crucible, other MUD fatties plus trygon, predator tarmo, qasali, tiker bot of current meta (Blightsteel Colossus) etc. it can act as a pseudoremoval, has some potentail but i think that i prefer a standard removal.
praetor's grip. i recently made a mini review. the only thing i will add is that it can steal duress too, but i think it is a bit sophisticated, nobody else mentioned it, so no?
thats all from me. hex parasite was a gift for this deck.

@stormanimangus I am a little bit confused so i will let a rules guru to answer this puzzle!

[Mr. Type 4]

Here's another wrinkle. What if I have Dark confidant out and my opponent has 2 soot counters and I don't have the mana to remove both but I reveal a ritual from confidant. I don't reveal that ritual before the sac trigger has already resolved so I can't then use it to make mana for the parasite right?

Like the opponent (shop play with active smokestack) gets to put upkeep triggers on the stack first in the order of his/her choosing so IF he/she has say a Smokestack @1 and a Tangle Wire @4 he/she can go:

1. Tangle Wire Trigger on the stack
2. Smokestack Trigger on the stack

after I have already put the confidant trigger on the stack. So if I am to respond I have to respond before the resolution of Smokestack (in order to avoid sac-ing) and thus do not get to see or use the card revealed by confidant.

Not 100% sure about when Smokestack checks but if i had to guess I'd say upon resolution.  

The other part is Magic 101.  As the active player (APNAP Rule) your Confidant trigger will always go on the stack before the Opponent's "Workshop shit" triggers.  SO Dark Confidant's Trigger will be resolved last and you wont get to see what card you're about to turn up until after all that (unless you looked at it on your opponent's EOT with Top of course, lol).  You will still get the card if you sacrifice the Confidant.

[cruzron]

hi guys,

just wanted to ask how do you answer tinker-bsc? are the 3 edicts enough?

[vrl]

3 edicts and 3 d.depths along with 4 tutors should be enough!

[2nd_lawl]

I would say going forward to anyone working on this deck: DO NOT CUT any of the tutors, never cut seal, and never ever ever cut consultation.  The ability to play consultation is perhaps the best reason to play this deck at all, as it is probably the most powerful card in vintage short of will, recall and lotus.

[Stormanimagus]

I would say going forward to anyone working on this deck: DO NOT CUT any of the tutors, never cut seal, and never ever ever cut consultation.  The ability to play consultation is perhaps the best reason to play this deck at all, as it is probably the most powerful card in vintage short of will, recall and lotus.

Would you consider moving obeyline to the SB or cutting it entirely to make room for things like Hex Parasite & Phyrexian Revoker? Also, Geth's Verdict over Diabolic Edict? Both? Split? Does the BB vs. 1B CMC cause an appreciable amount of problems? Would you also make room for 2-3 Phyrexian Obliterator? Just curious to know how you'd build the deck currently.

-Storm

[d0rsal]

Not speaking for 2nd lawl, since he's the master yoda of Dark Depths, but as a DD pilot myself, the difference in casting cost of geth's verdict vs edict is negligible @ best, but w/ the amount of dmg we deal ourselves, the loss of life mite actually be problematic in the event that we have to geth's/edict 1 of our own bob's.  not to mention, that the deck runs 5 "strip" effects, so the double black @ times might be an issue

[Metman]

This deck plays a full compliment of Wastelands and Strip Mine.  I would hate to be the guy on the play drop a swamp, have Tinker -> Robot played and only have a Strip effect available the next turn with a BB Geth's Verdict in hand.  The one loss of life seems negligible considering how fast this format is.   

[2nd_lawl]

geth's verdict is a no-go for sure.  The amount of times where you cast edict off a colorless mana far exceeds the amount of time 1 damage will matter, in a deck that wins most of it's games by swinging with a 20/20.

as far moving obeyline to the sideboard, sure. Ive said before in this thread it is a metagame call.

[Ten-Ten]

This deck plays a full compliment of Wastelands and Strip Mine.  I would hate to be the guy on the play drop a swamp, have Tinker -> Robot played and only have a Strip effect available the next turn with a BB Geth's Verdict in hand.  The one loss of life seems negligible considering how fast this format is.   

in this case, would it matter since chances are they have protection for the Bot.
what would be the correct play here?:

situation described above
with edict, strip mine/wasteland and duress in hand-
1) play strip, follow with duress effect-either getting countered or nabbing protecton, go. take hit from bot. next turn edict.
or
2) play strip, edict and hope it doesn't get countered.

just curious, im not experienced with this deck.

[2nd_lawl]

I have on several occasions "let" my opponent tinker, instead taking a force with my duress effect, because I have edict in hand. As good as tinker is, remember it is still card disadvantage.  Games where you answer tinker are usually wins.  In general though I would almost never keep a hand without a turn 1 play.  Swamp, go is an exceedingly weak opener.  1 damage is worth almost nothing in a deck which can only deal damage in increments of 2 and 20.

[cruzron]

I hear you but its just harder this time around. Back then getting your face beat by Sphinx was meh but now, you really have to answer a BSC or you're pretty much dead the next turn.

[Ryan]

Seems like theres been a lack of Dark Times lately, is it because no one is playing it or it just cant beat what is in the current meta?

[Ryan]

Also, why phyrexian revoker over pithing needle? Artifact creatures are some of the most vulnerable things in the game, and this deck doesn't win from beats (one swing from a 20/20 will do).  Although hex parasite seems like an almost auto include: takes counters from DD, planeswalkers, and MUD artifacts (the worst match up).

[Ryan]

2nd_lawl, I noticed you made T8 in blue bell about a month ago.  Any chance of a tournament report or chronicling how you lost some games if you remember?  

[2nd_lawl]

2nd_lawl, I noticed you made T8 in blue bell about a month ago.  Any chance of a tournament report or chronicling how you lost some games if you remember?  

I went undefeated in the swiss then lost to miastrano in 2 games where he basically just had better draws then me(whatever it happens, the last few times ive played against him I flat out crushed him, with absurd draws, so he was "due"), although i think i probably misplayed the first game and could have won if i had played a different land on my turn 3.   Not even going to attempt a real report, as i dont remember anything.

[Ryan]

2nd_lawl, I noticed you made T8 in blue bell about a month ago.  Any chance of a tournament report or chronicling how you lost some games if you remember?  

I went undefeated in the swiss then lost to miastrano in 2 games where he basically just had better draws then me(whatever it happens, the last few times ive played against him I flat out crushed him, with absurd draws, so he was "due"), although i think i probably misplayed the first game and could have won if i had played a different land on my turn 3.   Not even going to attempt a real report, as i dont remember anything.

Don't sweat the report, going undefeated in the first round says enough by itself haha.  I just wanted to get a general idea of how the deck ran, and evidently it went well.  It also probably means you were probably pretty happy with all your card selections.  Out of curiosty, what was that turn 3 play?

[boggyb]

2nd_lawl, this deck is exceedingly interesting to me. . . Demonic Consultation is a real powerhouse, extremely subtle, and way underrepresented in t1.

I wonder if you could write up that strategy guide you mentioned a few times? A lot to ask, I know -- if you've got like a working draft or a few deck matchups written up, anything would be great and very interesting.

edit: I've been out of Vintage for like 5 or 6 years now but still have about half of the cards in your starting decklist, including the power (except Imperial Seal -- I got out just before Portal was legalized). Was considering getting back into it and this sounds like a great entry point for me. If you have a second and are interested, it'd be real helpful if you could generate and go through a few more random starting hands, focusing on trickier edge cases. Thanks!

[2nd_lawl]

Next vintage tournament I play (prob the Grudge Match 3) I will keep a detailed record and post a report and maybe go into how i feel the deck is in the current meta(better than 3 months ago, for sure), maybe i will be able to provide specific insights on play(i have trouble explaining how to play the deck well on a forum, The sample hands was my effort to do so previously, but this deck is very nonlinear with all the tutors, and even I struggle with what to get sometimes).  The more the format degenerates into blue decks trying to out-blue one another, the better this deck is.  The sideboard needs a revamp from previous lists that were focused on beating workshops exclusively, and i feel safe cutting the snuff out from the main(which was a concession to lodestone).  My read against the new faster blue decks is the following:
Null rod is better than ever
Pointed discard is better than ever(as decks become more explosive, they lean harder on specific cards to give their hands substance)
If the workshop decks are playing slash panther, that is AMAZING for us.

[LSD25]

how well does this deck bounce back from t1 pithing needle on hexmage?

[Ryan]

how well does this deck bounce back from t1 pithing needle on hexmage?

EE or hemline off the top of my head

[Ryan]

I played this over the past weekend at Pandemonium vintage for duals tournament.  Quick break down for my matches:

First Match was against dredge.  Stone un-losable match up. 2-0.

Second match was against storm ETW.  Lost 0-2.  First game I went for helmline combo to win without knowing what his hand was and he bounced my leyline.  Stuck around for a little while and then lost to goblins.  Second game He opened with two pithing needles, one on hexmage, one on helm of obedience.  Tough game.

Third match I lost 1-2 to shops.  I forget the order of games, but one game I won when my opponent thought he could duplicant my Marit Lage.  The other he opened up with some spheres and I never recovered.  Third game was close and in a complicated stack of me wastelanding his wasteland to activating hexmage to have it dismembered (something like that) but I never got another hexmage on board.

4th round bye.

At this point I'm 2-2 and sitting in 8th due to the fact of the bye and my 2 losses being "quality" losses.

5th round lost 0-2 to shops.  He opened up quickly first game with spheres and beaters and I never recovered.  Second game he plays phyrexian revoker and some lands and I get down a confidant, mox, lotus petal, lands and have total board control.  I play another confidant and work up a strip lock with crucible and ghost quarter and wipe his revoker with snuff out and edict myself to rid myself of a confidant.  I wiped his whole board but drew into meaningless wastelands and other stuff.  Probably go through about half my deck and never see a hexmage or depths.  I played a hex parasite somewhere in there.  My own confidant ends up killing me since I was sitting at 3 life and I reveal and emissary of despair (one of three cards with 3cc in a stack of about 30 cards, it was just that kind of day) on the turn I was about to swing for lethal damage.

Not unhappy with how the deck ran, just never really "drew broken", but hey, what can you do.  I also would advise never cutting helmline,