TurboLich Primer ...

[Zelif]

Quote (goldfish @ Dec. 30 2002,14:46)Zelif, Lich is no win condition in this deck... but IF it makes you play better by adding an extra one, I guess it's the only way... Technically speaking it's not the best thing to do ...

[snip]

Keep Talking,
Goldfish

Yes, well, I play a heavy black component, and push the Abeyance/Duress angle, to make sure Lich WILL be my win conditon, but thats just different builds. i need to get mine out and wound up again, also. I am getting waaaaaay too rusty at drawing 750 cards.


Darren A. Dew
THE UNION

[goldfish]

Okay so I'm off testing some new cards for the deck this weekend... I'm looking into some interesting options as well as a new combo deck... I'll post a newer decklist normally after the weekend.

[Nocturnal]

It seems to me that Words of Worship would be strong in this deck.

Words of Worship 2W
Enchantment
X: The next time you would draw a card, DRAW X+X+X+X+X INSTEAD

[greedo]

Although Words of Worship looks like a neat card, it is really not needed.  Most of the time, when the combo is on the board, it goes off without it.  It just gives you another enchantment to Replenish.  I think I would try Illusions of Grandeur before I would try Words of Worship.

[Kheoinn]

The only problem with illusions is that you lose as soon as you can't pay the upkeep. Although drawing 20 cards is a hell of a lot, and you could probably win that turn via fastbonding all of your land down, floating it, and saccing the tapped lands because of fastbond damage to lich. You'd easily have enough mana for the mirror, and the time walk to win next turn. The only problem would be you'd have to worry about drawing out your entire deck via the 'gain 20 life' part. Then again, you could just go with sickening dreams, and it would be much faster than using the mirror universe.

It seems to me there are two versions. Lich + Mirror Universe, and the deck using lich + zuran orb + fastbond as an engine, and then killing with sickening dreams + glacial chasm.
Or are these one and the same deck?

[Zelif]

Quote (greedo @ Jan. 05 2003,16:27)Although Words of Worship looks like a neat card, it is really not needed.  Most of the time, when the combo is on the board, it goes off without it.  

I would agree, here. The idea shouldn't be "Wouldn't XXXXX be neat with Lich...", but optimizing the cardset so a winning state is produced.
One of the things I found in looking for cards with Lich was the "Pay half you life" kind of cards. Infernal Contract came about from that search, and is usable to get there, before you are a Lich, since you aren't that concerned about having life when you GET to Lich, but GETTING to Lich. I think Deathwish is another possibility here, since a single Extract/Cap will cost you the game.
And Lich players have an obvious Death Wish anyway....


Darren A. Dew
THE UNION

[Kheoinn]

What does everyone think about Nefarious Lich? There is no need for Glacial Chasm for fastbond damage or sickening dreams damage anymore, since the land you sac and the cards you discard are the ones removed from the game.

Also, does everyone still use mirror universe? I've found it much faster to just use sickening dreams.

[greedo]

Much faster is a lot different than much cooler.  I think the idea of pulling off the Mirror Universe/Lich kill method is what makes it worth playing.  With some practice it goes a lot smoother.  I definately enjoy it.

[Zelif]

Quote (Kheoinn @ Jan. 12 2003,10:39)1) What does everyone think about Nefarious Lich? There is no need for Glacial Chasm for fastbond damage or sickening dreams damage anymore, since the land you sac and the cards you discard are the ones removed from the game.

2) Also, does everyone still use mirror universe? I've found it much faster to just use sickening dreams.

1) Broken down, there are likely four different Lich decks, and Sickening Dreams is one, Mirror is one, Nefarious is one, and LICH is one. I don't use nefarious, because I like recycling cards from my graveyard, at least once. If you like it, go for it.

2) See above.

Darren A. Dew
THE UNION

[Razor]

Ah, Lich, an oldie but a goodie.

Has anyone tried employing actual critters in a Lich deck, lately?

A critter that may be good of note is that new rare black morph critter, Ebonblade Reaper [thanks Zelif], that costs 2B and deals 1+half of the opponent's life if it gets through.  It may or may not deal damage or life-loss.  It costs half of your life to attack with it which shouldn't hurt much with Lich in play, right.\n\n

[Zelif]

Quote (Razor @ Jan. 29 2003,17:55)Has anyone tried employing actual critters in a Lich deck, lately?

A critter that may be good of note is that new rare black critter that costs 2B and deals 1+half of the opponent's life if it gets through.  It may or may not deal damage or life-loss.  It costs half of your life to attack with it which shouldn't hurt much with Lich in play, right.  I am sorry I cannot remember its name at the moment.

Yes, Ebonblade Reaper, with Morph. An interesting idea, but incorporating it into Lich? I guess. I have to work hard to justify Infernal Contract and Death Wish, but if it works, hell.

To answer your question, the only critter I've ever tried in Lich (other than mana birds, backinaday) is Academy Rector, to fetch the Lich, or Fastbond, or Underworld Dreams.

Darren A. Dew
THE UNION

[Andreas]

Quote (BlurredWeasel @ Dec. 02 2002,04:17)"  If you are at somehow at negative life points when Lich comes into play, it will try to raise your life total to 0 by making you gain enough life to do so.  This life gain, however, will be replaced by you drawing that many cards instead. [DeLaney 2001/09/21]"

how can you be at negative life... then play the enchantment?

Play Lich.
loose some life.
Play another Lich.

[Zelif]

Quote (Andreas @ Jan. 30 2003,11:22)

Quote (BlurredWeasel @ Dec. 02 2002,04:17)"  If you are at somehow at negative life points when Lich comes into play, it will try to raise your life total to 0 by making you gain enough life to do so.  This life gain, however, will be replaced by you drawing that many cards instead. [DeLaney 2001/09/21]"

how can you be at negative life... then play the enchantment?

Play Lich.
loose some life.
Play another Lich.

[deleted with further clarifications, in forward posts]
That having been said, the above is correct....

Darren A. Dew
THE UNION

[Zharradan]

Sounds like a pre-6th ED ruling to me, where you could go below zero life and had until the end of the current phase before you died.

It is impossible to have a situation where a player has negative life and the game has not ended now. State based effects will end the game as soon as any player would get priority if someone is on zero or less life.

[BlurredWeasel]

Zelif: heh...not likely, does work though, thanks

On another topic, is there a current version of this decklist avaliable?  Did some of the newer sets make an impact on this deck?

Thank you,
Chris

[Razor]

[Folks, I believe this thread may be on the verge of a premature demise since it is bearing less and less fruit by the day.]

Blurred Weasel: Why not take a risk, make your own deck, test it a little and post some results?  There is enough data in this thread to give you a great start on several variants.

Zharradan: I disagree with your claim that it's impossible to have negative life.  I posted this Lich errata on Dec.01:

Quote You can lose life and take damage, and thereby have a negative life total, while Lich is in play. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]

Zelif: I like the idea of Rectors in Lich.  I have yet to test them at all; however, they did work beautifully in Bargain.  Life loss as a Lich does not trigger Lich's 'sac a permanent' ability; only damage does.

Andreas: I love your enthusiasm!

Quote Play Lich.
loose some life.
Play another Lich.

RE: Ebonblade Reapers
I think I'll try siding them over negators to surprise Control deck peeps post-sideboarding, after they've dropped their creature control....\n\n

[j_orlove]

From crystalkeep:

Quote Lich

Color= Black  Type= Enchantment  Cost= BBBB A®/B®/U®  
Text (ABU+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, your life total becomes 0. ; You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. ; If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. ; Whenever you're dealt damage, sacrifice that many permanents. ; When ~this~ leaves play, you lose the game. [Oracle 2002/03/01]

You can lose life and take damage, and thereby have a negative life total, while Lich is in play. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]

The damage isn't replaced, it just triggers the sacrifice effect. Thus, your life total can be below 0 with a Lich in play. (Note: the Nefarious version works differently.)

And the reaper seems bad, because it only does 10 damage the first time. After that, the amount keeps decreasing. Negators would kill your opponent quicker.

[Sylvester]

Actually, it does 11.

20
 19 (combat dmg)
9
 8 (combat dmg)
4
 3 (combat dmg)
1
0

It kills in 4 turns if the enemy is at 20 lives, and faster than negator if s/he has more lives than that.

[Zelif]

Quote (j_orlove @ Feb. 02 2003,01:13)From crystalkeep:

Quote Lich

Color= Black  Type= Enchantment  Cost= BBBB A®/B®/U®  
Text (ABU+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, your life total becomes 0. ; You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. ; If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. ; Whenever you're dealt damage, sacrifice that many permanents. ; When ~this~ leaves play, you lose the game. [Oracle 2002/03/01]

You can lose life and take damage, and thereby have a negative life total, while Lich is in play. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]

Aha. I always learn something new. Thus, Vampiric Tutor still works, even if you have no life, you would "lose two life" in its resolution, then be at less than zero (also according to Crystalkeep).

Razor, I gotta disagree; its just getting warmed back up.  

Darren A. Dew
THE UNION


Edit: Just want to add a quick link to my report for 2-16 Lich appearance.
Feb 16 Savannah report