TurboLich Primer ...

[goldfish]

Alright here we go, Let's start with my most recent decklist... My deck is in constant flux, cards marked with an * are rotatable...

TurboLich v4.0

Latest version
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Crosis's Catacombs
1x Darigaaz's Caldera
1x Undiscovered Paradise
1x Tundra
4x Underground Sea
4x Tropical Island
4x City of Brass
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
1x Mirror Universe
1x Mana Crypt
1x Scroll Rack
1x Overgrown Estate
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Lich
4x Duress
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Frantic Search*
3x Brainstorm
3x Intuition
1x Windfall
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
1x Time Spiral
1x Fastbond
1x Reclaim*
1x Regrowth
1x City of Solitude
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Enlightened Tutor*
1x Replenish
1x Pursuit of Knowledge*

SB:  1 Cursed Totem (Gorilla Shaman, Frenetic Efreet, Morphling, Dwarven Miner, BoP)
SB:  2 Hydroblast   
SB:  2 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Pyroclasm (Specter, Shaman)
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  3 Annul (Stacker)
SB:  2 slots free

[Master Tap]

I like the deck only 1 question though I have noticed alot of card that make you lose life and a glacial chasm how has that been working out with the interaction with the lich?

[goldfish]

Like I said, it's work in progress, I'm rewriting the primer and I'll be posting it piece by piece.

The Combo
Fastbond – Glacial Chasm – Lich –Overgrown Estate – Mirror Universe.

For an alternative way to win, see the questions & answers at the end of this article, there I will focus on replenishing your way to victory… The following is the way to play the deck without Replenish (you need to know that too)

A. Setting up the recursive environment (Fastbond - Timetwister)
Your first focus is Fastbond (so don't tutor for ancestral). When you get Fastbond on the table you move on to play the deck as a Timetwister deck, get resources out, never mind the damage from Fastbond (you'll go to 0 anyhow), if you see the chance this is also a good opportunity to get your Glacial Chasm into play.

Card Title:   Fastbond
Color:      Green
Card Type:   Enchantment
Cost:      G
Card Text:   You may put as many lands into play as you want each
      turn. Fastbond does 1 damage to you for every land beyond
      the first that you play in a single turn.
Artist:      Mark Poole
Rarity:      Rare 1

Card Title:   Timetwister
Color:      Blue
Card Type:   Sorcery
Cost:      2U
Card Text:   Set Timetwister aside in a new graveyard pile. Shuffle your
      hand, library, and graveyard together into a new library and
      draw a new hand of seven cards, leaving all cards in play
      where they are; opponent must do the same.
Artist:      Mark Tedin
Rarity:      Rare 1

Card Title:   Glacial Chasm
Color:      Land
Card Type:   Land
Card Text:   Cumulative Upkeep: 2 life
      When Glacial Chasm comes into play, sacrifice a
      land. You cannot attack. All damage dealt to you is
      reduced to 0.
Artist:      Liz Danforth
Rarity:      Uncommon 1

B. Setting up the uninterruptible environment (Abeyance-City of solitude-Sterling Grove)
Our second goal is setting up the uninterruptible environment (city of solitude), this must be done before dropping your Lich. You don't want your opponent to Disenchant or Counter anything when Lich is in play... Bolts are quite are annoying too... The uninterruptible environment exists of City of solitude/Abeyance and Glacial Chasm (you can drop this early in the game if there's need - red decks, weenie decks)... The thing with Glacial Chasm is that you can play it basically whenever you want, but it's best to get it out before you drop your Lich. It's not really necessary since you can start sacrificing Moxes etc for the damage from Fastbond (I regularly do that), and it's definitely not a reason NOT to play Lich. In the latest version I moved away from abeyance because it was just not very often used.

Card Name:   City of Solitude
Card Color:   Green
Rarity:      R
Casting Cost:   2G
Card Type:   Enchantment
Card Text:   Each player may play spells and abilities only during
      his or her turn.
Artist:      Romas Kukalis

C. Setting up the Combo (Lich-DarkHeart/Overgrown Estate/Zuran orb)
Once that's accomplished you go for the Dark Heart of the Wood, Overgrown Estate or Zuran Orb, and finally Lich. Each has its advantage Zuran orb is a zero-drop, the others will net you 3 cards instead of 2 and are enchantments (and thus replenishable). If you are in serious trouble you can play Lich early (let's say you have Fstbond but no CoS or Chasm), drop Lich and sac some lands, you will go off too since you’ll draw a massive amount of cards it will be very likely to draw your Fastbond... but there's high risk only do this when you have no other option.. I did it twice at a tournament, and was able to recover from being at 1 life...

Card Title:   Lich
Color:      Black
Card Type:   Enchantment
Cost:      BBBB
Card Text:   You lose all life. If you gain life later in the game, instead
      draw one card from  your library for each life.  For each
      point of damage you suffer, you must destroy one of your
      cards in play. Creatures destroyed in this way cannot be
      regenerated. You lose if this enchantment is destroyed or if
      you suffer a point of damage without sending a card to the
      graveyard.
Artist:      Daniel Gelon
Rarity:      Rare 1

Card Title:   Dark Heart of the Wood
Color:      Multi-color
Type:      Enchantment
Cost:      BG
Card Text:   You may sacrifice a forest to gain 3 life.
      Counts as both a black card and a green

Card Name:   Overgrown Estate   
Card Color:   Multi-color   
Mana Cost:   BGW   
Type:    Enchantment    
Card Text:   Sacrifice a land: You gain 3 life.   
Flavor Text:   The decay of Crovax's ancestral home matched the
      state of his soul.   
Artist:      Brian Snoddy   
Rarity:      R   

Card Title:   Zuran Orb
Color:      Artifact
Card Type:   Artifact
Cost:      0
Card Text:   0: Sacrifice a land to gain 2 life.
Artist:      Sandra Everingham
Rarity:      Uncommon 1

D. Setting up the Kill (Mirror-Time Walk)
When all above steps are completed you need to get your Mirror Universe into play, get hold of your Timewalk and make sure that before you take your extra turn, you have as many cards left in your library as your opponent has life (most of the time 20 cards), you accomplish this with a Twister or a spiral... and that's it... Timewalk, upkeep, switch life (you are at 0 thanks to Lich)... Game

Card Title:   Time Walk
Color:      Blue
Card Type:   Sorcery
Cost:      1U
Card Text:   Take an extra turn after this one.
Artist:      Amy Weber
Rarity:      Rare 1

Card Title:   Mirror Universe
Color:      Artifact
Card Type:   Artifact
Cost:      6
Card Text:   TAP: Sacrifice Mirror Universe during your upkeep,
       and trade your number of lives with opponent. For
      example, if you had 2 lives and your opponent had
      10, you would now have 10 lives and your
      opponent would have 2.  Effects that prevent or
      redirect damage may not be used to counter this
      change of life.
Artist:      Phil Foglio
Rarity:      Rare 1

Coming next: Troubleshooting situations and card choices

[goldfish]

Next part... The rules to keep in mind when playing Lich...

The Rules

Rule 1: Protecting Lich
You don't want your Lich to be Disenchanted, Cleansed, Dismantled or Vindicated.
So when you play Lich you don't give your opponent another turn. You do not play Lich unless you have City of Solitude in play or unless you are darn sure your opponent doesn’t hold any enchantment removal. City of solitude will also protect you from those pesky counter decks and is on top of it an enchantment itself, so if it gets countered you can still replenish it !

Card Name:   City of Solitude
Card Color:   Green
Rarity:      R
Casting Cost:   2G
Card Type:   Enchantment
Card Text:   Each player may play spells and abilities only during
      his or her turn.
Artist:      Romas Kukalis

You don't care if your Lich gets countered (in case you're hard-casting) since you run replenish. Another way to protect your Lich is Sterling Grove… Sterling grove is optional, sometimes I run it, sometimes I don’t. I never really needed it since I stick to the CoS rule to not give my opponent another turn after I drop Lich (with CoS already in play). CoS protects you basically from everything, you don’t want 2 bolt thrown at your head when you drop you Lich, right? Same for Zuran orb and other fast effects, CoS takes care of all of them.

Card Name:   Sterling Grove
Card Color:   Multi
Rarity:      U
Casting Cost:   GW
Card Type:   Enchantment
Card Text:   All other enchantments you control can't be the targets of spells
      or abilities. 1, Sacrifice Sterling Grove: Search your library
      for an enchantment card and reveal that card. Shuffle your
      library, then put the card on top of it.
Artist:      Jeff Miracola

Rule 2.
You have all the time of the world, life is a resource so use it. Once you play Lich you go to 0 anyhow, having 20 life left when you go to 0 means you didn't utilize all your resources. Unless of course you had a real good opening hand

Rule 3.
Save those FoW's... You don't really care if someone counters your Lich (if you hard cast it), or your Sterling Grove or Estate... Always remember you play replenish... Your opponent countering an enchantment is always card disadvantage for him/her... Let them counter and save your FoW and ReB for that replenish that will seal the game...

In some of my latests builds I’m running Duress instead of FoW. There’s pro’s and cons. Duress only costs B, it will be able to remove a threat (a disk for example), so it’s more an aggressive defense and it will show you your opponents hand, which is beneficial for your timing (when to drop the combo). Disadvantages are obviously the interaction with twister, but I see this as a minor disadvantage. I think every one here knows how good a first turn Duress is, or if you want to save it up for later on you can also do that.

FoW on the other hand gives you card disadvantage, you can’t use it once your Lich is in play and is more reactive. It all depends on your metagame and preference. You can add 4 FoW and 2 ReB to have quite some countering force available… Another problem with FoW is the poor interaction with CoS.

[goldfish]

It can go by 3-4 turns... The thing is that you're not really in such a rush to go off immediately, since your life goes to 0 anyhow when you play Lich. It all depends on how much risks you take when dropping Lich... If you play it safe it takes a bit longer, against non-counter decks you do'nt have to worry that much so it can go really fast. Aslo I didn't touch the subject yet but I play the deck normally with Replenish/Intuition and that can go REALLY fast...

Intuition for Lich/Fastbond/Overgrown Estate... Replenish...

[Zelif]

 

I love Lich. What about Second Chance? Wouldn't THAT give you a few turns? I just know everyone is trying to remember that card! Lemme save you a lookup: Second Chance, Urza's Legacy Rare: U2, enchantment. At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have five or less life, sacrifice Second Chance. If you do, take another turn after this one. The only reason this card sticks in my head is that I managed to draft three in one draft one night, with a fleet of "timmie" cards from that block. I used the Tims to wipe myself down to four, and took multiple turns via the Chances. Kinda cool, for a draft that'll NEVER happen again.


Zelif

[TheMailman]

How does this version compare to the Lich/Donate/Delusions of Grandure build? I admit I'm not a big Lich player, but this seems a little more complicated than the Lich/Donates that I've seen.

[jimbo]

All the things I like about your deck idea I already like about pandeburst (it is easy to dump into the graveyard and nail the combo with one cheap sorcery that is relatively easy to defend) except for your combo being more cards, but I digress.

The many things I dont like about your deck are the ways in which it is not as good at pandeburst in a lot of ways.

1) You run one bazaar, pandeburst runs 4 plus 3 squees. Bazaar/Squee isnt the most broken drawing/digging engine ever thought up, but it is definitely in the top ten. If youre playing recursion combo, why are you not running the maximum amount of bazaars? Bazaar is autowin against most control decks unless they kill it right after you play it. It can't be countered and it lets you draw 3 cards a turn.

2) You are running one lich, one overgrown estate. This is very risky IMO. Pandeburst runs 4 of each combo component and can almost certainly topdeck into them with bazaar. You almost are forced to tutor for them, which makes you more vulnerable to countering (which is already painful for combo decks). This doesnt even mention Jester's cap, which will eat your deck in one fell swoop.

3) The combo, even if you run 4 copies of each is very very non splashable. BBBB and BGW are expensive as hell compared to 4G and 3R and 3W for the "big spells" of pandeburst.

4) Both decks are vulnerable to counterspells, back to basics and meddling mage, but you arent running 4 red blasts maindeck. This spell is very advisable maindeck considering the cards that you should fear.

Some of these problems can be fixed easy, but the fundamental problem is that pandeburst casts replenish and proceeds to win immediately in 99 percent of games, while your deck needs a weird convergance of cards in hand and on table to prevent your opponent from being able to kill lich off, at which point you STILL have to cast the enormous drain bait artifact called mirror universe.

If you can find a way to make this work without mirror universe and CoS, I would say you have a shot at a quirky replenish deck. Otherwise forget about it completely.

[PsychoCid]

Also only one Replenish

I played this deck for a short while several months ago, and I'll admit it looks shakey, to say the least.  The more you play with it, though, the easier it gets, and you'll eventually note that that's all the deck needs.

Additionally, you're talking about an old version of PandeBurst, as most versions now run only 2-3 of each key enchantment and don't run the Bazaar-Squee engine.  Reason being, it was no longer getting the job done.  Not ever being a PandeBurst player, I couldn't explain exactly why, but CF has plenty of experience with the deck, so ask him if you ever drop by #bdchat

Who the heck still runs Cap? :<

Without Mirror and CoS? Without Mirror, Lich is nothing more than a poor draw engine.  Lich is in a category of its own, in a sense.  Both Academy and Pandeburst have their advantages over it and over eachother...but the biggest is that they are easier to understand and faster and more efficient with less practice.  Lich can be just as competetive, it's just a matter of getting to know the deck.

Also, Goldfish, you've done a remarkable job on the primer so far.  Your specifics go a long way to help allow newbies to the deck to understand it better, and I was working from a much older one, when I played the deck.  Kudos \n\n

[Max, the Mana Drainer]

Quick question: if I capsize a Lich, you lose the game or not?

Thanks.

Max, the Mana Drainer

[Aroxisis]

yes, if Lich is capsized, its controller loses the game.

[Zelif]

1x Ancient Tomb
1x Mana Crypt
3x Intuition
1x Pursuit of Knowledge

I have to say, that, in our area, Tormod's Crypt is like a habit thats hard to break; EVERYONE uses them. So, Replenish is somewhat risky. I also agree with whomever said that playing with one Lich was risky.
I play two Liches, no Bazaars. I also plan on hardcasting. The Dark Rituals (4) double for (ready?) Infernal Contract. I also use a Necro, which is the first thing to go with the first point of Fastbond damage, of course.
The Mana crypt, to me, seems unnecessary, but, again, I use Rituals. They recur with Timetwister. It does well against a lot of decks, and surprises ME with some of its come from behind wins, because almost every card means you can win THIS TURN. anyway, maybe I should post the decklist.


ZELIF

[PsychoCid]

The primer is intended for the optimal and fully powered t1 metagame.  Different builds are different things, and metagames are something you adjust for.  If your metagame suggests you run more or less of something, that's usually what you do. =P

[Razor]

{I just got a minty alpha Lich}

Ahem, I thought I'd dust this thread off and try to resurrect it.  There is at least one new card consideration for this combo deck:

Quote Convalescent Care:
  Info: Color=White     Type=Enchantment           Cost=1WW              ON®
  Text(ON): At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 5 life or less, you
    gain 3 life and draw a card.

In conjunction with Lich that means drawing 5 cards at the start of every turn.

Here's another Replenish-friendly card (which I also found useful when I was playing Pandeburst):

Quote Careful Study:
  Info: Color=Blue      Type=Sorcery               Cost=U                OD©
  Text(OD): Draw two cards, then discard two cards from your hand.

Is Fact or Fiction fast enough?


I am still guessing that this Combo deck's worst matchup is Control.  It may have to use a similar maindeck strategy to most Academy decks to stop Control:
4 Force of Will
2 Abeyance

Possibly, a transformational Sideboard will help, too.  An example of such:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Misdirection
etc.

BTW, is Brainstorm in here over Impulse because of its synergy with Intuition and to help resist black discard?

Donate/Illusions/Lich sounds intriguing.

Since the deck is almost entirely comprised of singles would it benefit from the inclusion of:

Quote Tainted Pact:
  Info: Color=Black     Type=Instant               Cost=1B               OD®
  Text(OD): Remove the top card of your library from the game.  You may put
    that card into your hand unless it has the same name as another card
    removed this way.  Repeat this process until you put a card into your hand
    or you remove two cards with the same name, whichever comes first.

This deck resembles Jon Sexton's Underworld Dreams deck which I found benefitted form the addition Pact.  Credit to -CF- for being the first to maindeck Pact in Tainted Mask.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the decklist with some comments on how to play the deck. I'm sorry if
the comments aren't too clear but I hope you will understand the basics of
this deck. I'll post my comments on your Zur decks later, but at first
sight, they seem "Interesting" =)

TurboLich v. 0.9

Mana

1 x Library of Alexandria
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Tolarian Academy
1 x Volcanic Island
1 x Bayou
1 x Gemstone Mine
4 x Underground Sea
4 x Tropical Island
4 x City of Brass

1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Sol Ring

1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Mana Vault

Combo parts

1 x Glacial Chasm
1 x Mirror Universe
1 x Lich
1 x Overgrown Estate
1 x Time Walk
1 x Fastbond

Search

1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Bazaar of Baghdad
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Ancestral Recall
4 x Intuition
1 x Timetwister
1 x Wheel of Fortune
2 x Brainstorm
2 x Impulse
1 x Time Spiral (not too sure about this one, might leave for

one brainstorm or impulse)

Support

1 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Regrowth
1 x Recall
1 x City of Solitude
3 x Replenish
3 x Force of Will
1 x Abeyance

I know the deck might look random, and no, it's not the best
combo deck around but it's a blast to play! It can win against
keeper, but BBS does really give it a headache. Also Jester's
Cap and/or Tormod's Crypt from sideboard hurts it alot.
Currently my main problem is that the deck isn't as consistant
as I'd want it to be. It can kill even on turn 2, but usually
does so on turn 4-5, but then again, sometimes it might take
LONG time until you draw what you need.

How to play TurboLich

First, you should be able to get Fastbond and/or City of
Solitude into play, you can do this via Intuition/Replenish,
but usually, if possible I try play other one and Replenish
the other. Once either of them hits play, Intuition for Lich,
Overgrown Estate and City or Fastbond, get the one that your
opponent chose to give you out of your hand by Recall, Wheel
of Fortune, Bazaar of Baghdad (used to play two of them) or
simply play it, and then Replenish. Still, if possible, it's
better to play Fastbond than City of Solitude because that
lets you play the lands you have in your hand by taking
damage, as you will lose all of your life anyway with lich =)

(NOTE: City of Solitude can be "replaced" by playing an
Abeyance, I used to play two Abeyances but had to cut one for
more search, I also used to have one Sterling Grove as "soft
lock" to protect other enchantments. That was ok as well, but
City of Solitude is naturally the best because it also
protects them on your "timewalked" turn, and in case of two
disenchants, Sterling Grove is useless)

After Lich, Overgrown Estate, Fastbond and City of Solitude
are in play you should find Glacial Chasm by saccing lands and
either finding it or Vampiric/Demonic Tutor (NOTE: you don't
have to sac permanents for Vampiric Tutor under Lich because
it's counted as loss of life (it doesn't say "Pay 2 life"
anymore), not damage.), and play it. After that, you have
basically won, unless you get really unlucky. Remember that
often if you are fizzling Yawgmoth's Will can save you easily.
Just sac a land to draw three cards, most likely you will find
another land, play lands, draw three cards, play lands...

Eventually you will find Mirror Universe and Time Walk. Play
Time Walk and on your new turns upkeep, switch lives. Note,
that you must have 20+ cards in your library when you change
lives, because that makes you draw 20 cards when you gain 20
life, so you might have to use Timetwister or Time Spiral...
that is ofcourse unless your opponent chooses to scoop =)

This isn't one of the easiest decks to play, and even when
played perfectly, it can lose to a single Jester's Cap.

The best match I've ever played with this deck was two turn 2
kills but still, turn 2 kill is really rare (I would have
loved to see my opponents face after that ).

I'd love to get your comments on this deck.

~Markus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the sake of completeness, here are some older Lich decks from my archives:

Lich v2.0 by Luk Schoonaert 01-10-23
luk_schoonaert@yahoo.com <luk_schoonaert@yahoo.com>
http://cdevos.port5.com/t1/gauntlet.php#replenish

  1 Abeyance
  1 Enlightened Tutor
  1 Replenish

  1 City of Solitude
  1 Fastbond
  3 Forgotten Lore
  1 Regrowth

  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 Lich
  1 Vampiric Tutor
  1 Yawgmoth's Will

  1 Ancestral Recall
  3 Brainstorm
  1 Fact or Fiction
  2 Impulse
  1 Intuition
  1 Mystical Tutor
  1 Timespiral
  1 Timetwister
  1 Time Walk

   2 Red Elemental Blast
  1 Wheel of Fortune

  1 Dark Heart of the Wood
  1 Sterling Grove

  1 Black Lotus
  1 Mana Crypt
  1 Mirror Universe
  5 Moxen
  1 Scroll Rack
  1 Sol Ring
  1 Zuran Orb

  4 Bayou
  4 City of Brass
  1 Glacial Chasm
  1 Library of Alexandria
  1 Tolarian Academy
  3 Tropical Island
  3 Underground Sea
  2 Volcanic Island

   Sideboard:

  1 Abeyance
  1 CoP Black
  1 CoP Red
  1 Seal of Cleansing
  1 City of Solitude
  3 Pyroblast
  2 Pyroclasm
  1 Red Elemental Blast
  2 Blue Elemental Blast
  2 Cursed Totem
 
-----------------------------------------------------------
By Scrub on Friday, October 19, 2001 - 09:08 pm:
4 Lich
4 Overgrown Estate
4 Exploration
4 Horn of Greed
1 Fastbond

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Intution
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
2 Impulse
1 Regrowth

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak

1 Time Spiral
1 Mirror Universe

I don't know, but you could make one with Lich+Overgrown Estate+Fastbond=draw your library out very fast, then play out Mirror universe, then Time Spiral/TImeTwister and trade lives.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Barktooth Warbeard (Barktooth) on Saturday, October 20, 2001 - 06:18 am:
TurboLich v2.4

1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Library of Alexandria C
1 Strip Mine C
1 Tolarian Academy U
Foil 1 Crosis's Catacombs B,R,U
Foil 1 Darigaaz's Caldera B,R,G
1 Reflecting Pool B,U,R,G,W
BB 4 Underground Sea B,U
BB 4 Tropical Island U,G
AN 4 City of Brass B,U,R,G,W
Beta 1 Black Lotus B,U,B,R,W
Beta 1 Mox Emerald G
Beta 1 Mox Jet B
Beta 1 Mox Pearl W
Beta 1 Mox Ruby R
Beta 1 Mox Sapphire B
Beta 1 Sol Ring C
LG 1 Mirror Universe
1 Mana Crypt
Foil 1 Sterling Grove
Foil 1 Overgrown Estate
Foil 1 Vampiric Tutor
Beta 1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Beta 1 Lich
Foil 4 Duress
1 Mystical Tutor
Beta 1 Ancestral Recall
Foil 1 Frantic Search
Foil 4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
1 Windfall
Beta 1 Time Walk
Beta 1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
Beta 1 Fastbond
Beta 1 Regrowth
1 City of Solitude
Beta 1 Wheel of Fortune
Beta 2 Red Elemental Blast
Foil 1 Enlightened Tutor
Foil 1 Replenish

Seems the guy likes pretty decks...

Beta power aint to shabby either.

Hope this helped.

Cheers, Barktooth



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Andy Petkovics on Sunday, October 21, 2001 - 09:55 am:
Luk Schoonaert played Lich, and this was his decklist:

1 Abeyance
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Replenish
1 City of Solitude
1 Fastbond
3 Forgotten Lore
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Lich
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Impulse
1 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Spiral
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Dark Heart of the Wood
1 Sterling Grove
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mirror Universe
5 Moxen
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sol Ring
1 Zuran Orb

4 Bayou
4 City of Brass
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

You win with Universe and Lich

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By Liquefactive Necrosis on Monday, October 22, 2001 - 02:03 pm:
If you decide to use Universe and Lich as your kill method, make sure you have at least as many cards in your library as your opponent's life total. Otherwise, the game will be a draw.
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[Azhrei]

I just want to make sure I am reading this right: Lich says you sac a perm for each damage you take, so the upkeep of Chasm doesn't affect you, or can you not pay it since you have no life?

I'm finding this terribly interesting to read, but I have to confess I'm not conversant on the rulings on Lich.

[Sylvester]

Azhrei: IIRC, you must pay lives, and you got 0 of those. So it just doesn't affect you, since life loss isn't like damage.

Goldfish: I expected you to have a paragraph for lifegain decks. Since the primer is also targetted at new players, it might be good to remind them that when you gain lives through Mirror, you have to draw that many cards instead, which could result in a draw. It might prevent some strategic mistake, or at least some surprise when the lich player learns that what he thought would be a win is just a draw

[Razor]

Azhrei, good question.  For reference:

Quote Glacial Chasm:
  Info: Color=Land      Type=Land                  Cost=None             IA(U)
  Text(IA+errata): Cumulative Upkeep - Pay 2 life. ; If ~this~ would come into
    play, sacrifice a land instead.  If you do, put ~this~ into play.  If you
    don't, put it into its owner's graveyard. ; Skip your combat phase. ;
    Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you.  [Oracle 2000/10/24]
  If there are no lands (other than this one) in play when this enters play,
    you have to put this card in its owner's graveyard. [D'Angelo 2000/02/16]
  It requires a land to be sacrificed just before it enters play.  It is not
    sacrificed on announcement. [D'Angelo 2000/02/16]

And, just when I thought that Time Vault, Vesuvan Doppleganger and Fork had the most errata:

Quote Lich:
  Info: Color=Black     Type=Enchantment           Cost=BBBB            ABU®
  Text(ABU+errata): As ~this~ comes into play, your life total becomes 0. ;
    You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. ;  If you would gain
    life, draw that many cards instead. ; Whenever you're dealt damage,
    sacrifice that many permanents. ; When ~this~ leaves play, you lose the
    game. [Oracle 2002/03/01]
You can lose life and take damage, and thereby have a negative life total, while Lich is in play. [D'Angelo 2001/08/31]
You cannot pay life, just like any player at less than one life cannot pay life.  You can pay zero life if they want.  See Rule G.19.6.
    [D'Angelo 1998/02/03]
  You cannot play this on an opponent. [PPG Page 221]
  The phrase "When Lich leaves play, you lose the game" is an absolute
    statement.  Casting a Healing Salve or using some other life gain after
    the destruction (or other means of leaving play) will not save you.
    [WotC Rules Team 1994/01/29]  Note that you will normally lose when Lich
    leaves play as a State-Based Effect before you can take any actions
    because your life total is normally zero or less while you control Lich.
    If you have a positive life total or are otherwise prevented from losing
    due to a zero life total, this triggered ability will cause you to lose
    the game anyway. [D'Angelo 2000/09/09]
  If you have multiple Lich cards in play, you must sacrifice a permanet for
    each damage done to you for each Lich.  This is because the sacrifice is
    a triggered ability (see Rule A.4).  But you only draw one card for each
    life gained regardless of how many Liches you have.  This is because the
    draw is a replacement effect (see Rule T.10) and not a triggered one.
    [WotC Rules Team 1996/12/03]  You lose if any one of the Liches leaves
    play.
  If you take more than one damage at a time, sacrifice the permanents for
    that damage simultaneously. [WotC Rules Team 1995/06/15]  This allows you
    to sacrifice both a creature and any enchantment that is on it all at
    once.
  If an opponent steals control of Lich, their life total does not change.
    The life total changes for a player only when it comes into play under
    that player's control. [DeLaney 2000/08/19]
  If an opponent steals control of Lich and no other effect prevents you from
    losing with a life total of zero, you will lose the game due to a zero
    life total as a State-Based Effect before you can take any actions.  The
    last sentence doesn't apply in this case since the Lich didn't leave play.
    [DeLaney 2000/08/19]
  If you are at somehow at negative life points when Lich comes into play, it
    will try to raise your life total to 0 by making you gain enough life to
    do so.  This life gain, however, will be replaced by you drawing that
    many cards instead. [DeLaney 2001/09/21]

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[BlurredWeasel]

Sorry about off topic here...but how could this come about?

"  If you are at somehow at negative life points when Lich comes into play, it will try to raise your life total to 0 by making you gain enough life to do so.  This life gain, however, will be replaced by you drawing that many cards instead. [DeLaney 2001/09/21]"

how can you be at negative life... then play the enchantment?

Just wondering,
Chris

[Zelif]

Wow, if Liches were fishes...

But, to my point: Chasm's Upkeep, indeed cannot be paid by the Lich. That person has nothing to pay, just as if he had no lands to sac for some other upkeep, or anything else. The Chasm is strictly there to provide you with unlimited Fastbondage, with no damage, City of Brassage etc. On the turn when you go berserk, you are really seeking Chasm, to finish the "lock" and when (in some decks) you cast Sickening Dreams, you take nothing. Usually, if Time Walk is involved (for some reason) the Chasm is sacced to a Zuran Orb, but again, be careful! Don't draw too many cards!


Darren A. Dew

[goldfish]

Sylvester, the answer to lifegain deck is PURSUIT of Knowledge... Hey all, sorry but I've been inactive for quite a while but I still DO play Lich, and I'm very happy to see there's so much interest... Feel free to mail me at goldfish@gnome.be for specific questions...

Keep Talking,
Goldfish

[goldfish]

Alrighty,

I just scanned through the complete thread, and it's nice to see some people have really grasped the idea behind TurboLich. I run only 1 of each card to have a versatile deck and as little dead cards a possible... Believe me the decks works...

About Pandeburst decks being easier. Yes I agree, but that's not the point of TurboLich, if you want an easier deck to build and play use pandeburst. It just doesn't take the same level of skill... Pandeburst is in my opinion quite boring to play and a rather moderate player can do well with the deck (hence it has 3 or 4 times each card, limiting the possibilities and limiting the fun and skill necessary to play).

If you want to win tournaments without breaking your head, play Keeper.... I play keeper myself, and if you play it well you will make a good chance of top 4 at most high standard tourneys...

If you prefer playing combo that's easier and less risky, play Twister (Carl Devos has a very good one, and so do I)... It's a bit easier but still takes a lot of skill, it is however less dangerous than Lich.

Now, if you want to have crowds watching when you're playing and you want to THINK and make ingenious game-turns, hear "ooh's" and "ahhh's", I suggest you play TurboLich

Anyhow, just closing on a rather cheery note... I created this deck because I wanted to prove magic can be more than playing a generic deck that plays itself...

Keep Talking,
Goldfish

[Zelif]

Quote (goldfish @ Dec. 02 2002,05:37)Now, if you want to have crowds watching when you're playing and you want to THINK and make ingenious game-turns, hear "ooh's" and "ahhh's", I suggest you play TurboLich

[snips]

Goldfish

EDIT: Eeep. According to the rules team, in 1996, drawing cards for life, with two Liches, is a replacement effect, not a triggered effect, but it might be out of date; researching now.
Sorry for any misinformation.

I would agree completely. Turning the rules upside down when playing Magic tends to create "feature-matches". Since this is the "primer" thread, I'll add an odd occurrence that drew just such a crowd, and adds to the general intelligence of Lich.

[deleted because rule clarity was in error, and it doesn't happen this way]

Darren A. Dew

EDIT: Eeep. According to the rules team, in 1996, drawing cards for life, with two Liches, is a replacement effect, not a triggered effect, but it might be out of date; researching now.

[Cuandoman]

From Ask Wizards 12-7-02:

Quote Q: In a desperate ploy to keep myself alive, I drop a Glacial Chasm (sacrificing a plains) to complement my Soul Echo (nine counters). Now, Glacial Chasm says that all damage dealt to me is reduced to zero. Is this "different" - technically speaking - from preventing it? In other words, if my brother Fireballs me, can he remove counters from the Soul Echo thereby killing me (Since that Glacial Chasm upkeep is so steep I was around -35 life at the time)? Or is "reduced to zero" a different mechanic than "prevent or redirect"?
--Jared in PA

A: Glacial Chasm's Oracle text says that the damage is prevented.

When several replacement effects (damage prevention in this case) interact, the affected player chooses the order they apply in. A player would usually apply the Chasm's effect first so that the Soul Echo doesn't see any damage being dealt, and no counters are removed.

Glacial Chasm has a Cumulative Upkeep of paying 2 life. Cumulative Upkeep gives you the option to pay the cost, if you don't want to, or is unable to pay it, you have to sacrifice the permanent instead. If the upkeep of Glacial Chasm demands a higher life payment then you have life available, you can't make the payment, and have to sacrifice the Chasm instead.

The answer to your question: If the Chasm in play, it will keep you alive from your brother's Fireball, you don't have to remove any counters. The Glacial Chasm's upkeep is optional, you can always choose to not pay it, and stay alive for a while longer.

So basically the chasm screws ya.

[Zelif]

Quote (Cuandoman @ Dec. 06 2002,22:11)So basically the chasm screws ya.

Only if you're planning on letting them cast spells, or if you're planning on taking too many turns.
Early game, if you're Fastbonding, you can throw out Chasm, to survive the early beats.
Later, when you are "going off", you can drop it to prevent any surprises, or to allow you to play out those gazillion lands you've been drawing. But, the idea is thats the turn, or very soon, when you're going to WIN.


Darren A. Dew

[Pyromaniac]

@ Zelif: you're right about the 2 Lich in play stuff. If you have 2, and take 1 damage, you must sacrifice 2 permanents. However, when you gain life, you only draw 1 card. This is the relevant portion of the ruling

http://www.crystalkeep.com/cgi-bin/magicsearch.cgi?cardName=lich&cardColour=&cardType=&creatureType=&expansion=&rarity=&cardText=&rulingText=

# If you have multiple Lich cards in play, you must sacrifice a permanent for each damage done to you for each Lich. This is because the sacrifice is a triggered ability (see Rule A.4). But you only draw one card for each life gained regardless of how many Liches you have. This is because the draw is a replacement effect (see Rule T.10) and not a triggered one. [WotC Rules Team 1996/12/03] You lose if any one of the Liches leaves play.

On a sidenote: I remember 2 friends of mine playing in a Type 1 tourney. One of them was playing Lich, the other Trix. When the one playing Lich cast it, and it resolved, all of a sudden the Trix player had NO way of winning the game  D'OH!!

[goldfish]

Cuandoman,

Lich is not about creating an infinite amount of turns, it's about creating one infinite turn... There's a big difference...

And still having a CoS in play, you can still sac Chasm to Zorb and take extra turns, just twisting and replaying Chasm... but again, it's not about that...

and about the other comments, 1 Lich is really enough in the deck. There's NO point whatsoever to have multiples. If they counter you either twist or replenish, if they destroy it you're dead... And you don't want to DRAW a Lich anyhow (you replenish it)so the fewer you have the better.

Goldfish

[Zelif]

Quote (goldfish @ Dec. 08 2002,16:41)....1 Lich is really enough in the deck. There's NO point whatsoever to have multiples. If they counter you either twist or replenish, if they destroy it you're dead... And you don't want to DRAW a Lich anyhow (you replenish it)so the fewer you have the better.

Goldfish

I am just a nervous enough person that I dislike ReapLace/Nevyn/Lich with only one win card. Not condition, CARD. Thats scary to me. Turn one, Extract, scoop. So, I play with two Liches, or at least a Death Wish.


Darren A. Dew

[goldfish]

Zelif, Lich is no win condition in this deck... but IF it makes you play better by adding an extra one, I guess it's the only way... Technically speaking it's not the best thing to do ...

Besides TurboLich v4 is already getting outdated, I should brush up a bit on the new sets and make a an up to date list and primer... I just don't know how many people are interested in it...

Funny thing is that the Lich deck was not taking into the Primers section of The Mana Drain...

Keep Talking,
Goldfish

[Kheoinn]

I'm interested. I was going to proxy off the deck and try it out a little bit anyway, but I'll wait until you update the decklist to do that now .

[Zherbus]

Quote Funny thing is that the Lich deck was not taking into the Primers section of The Mana Drain...

If you ever want to compile everything in this thread and make into a Primer form, I'd be glad to put it up!