[Discussion] Will 10 proxies produce a distored meta?

[johnstown713]

good point  because I think it will change the meta.  But if you get a bunch of people proxying, just because they proxy a card doesn't meen they know how to use it correctly.

[Mixing Mike]

I'd also expect to see a lot of people overlooking decks like Sui, Landstill, Hulk/GAT, etc....all the decks that can run on a 5 proxie budget.  

Any deck that runs Bazaars and Workshops would seem most likely to rise to higher levels of play.  This would throw off results as high proxie tournaments would start to resemble Top 8's in Europe, under-representing cirtian archtypes, therefore over-representing others.  

Overall, waiting is good.  There's a Northeast T1 double lotus tourny coming up within a month, so we'll just look at that for the most information.

[Zherbus]

...but that's 5 proxy, not 10.

[thecapn]

...but that's 5 proxy, not 10.

Well the thread made sense for the period of time when the tournament was understood to be 10 proxies...  so much for that noise.

[Gaea]

You're speaking about an ideal metagame... but what is an ideal metagame? what's your definition of it? is a meta just made of tier1? i don't think we can call that an ideal meta, and if you allow too much proxy, i'm sorry but this is what you will see...
What i call a good metagame is a various meta, where i can find keeper, hulk, mask, stacks, tnt, rector tendrils, dragon, zoo, sligh, monoblack and what else, and luckily this is what we have in europe without proxy so starting from the point that we have a good meta without proxies, i think allowing more and more proxies your meta will became worse and worse...

[ctthespian]

Exactly Gaea.  I think the definition of metagame must be agreed upon.  It once meant the type of opposition you could expect in a given local region, store or tournament.  Now people are trying to give the term metagame a worldly scope.  Maybe terms like MacroGame and MicroGame should be used instead.

"thecapn" was referring to the upcoming New England Championship dual lotus tourny when he started this thread.   He noticed the incorectly changed proxy limit from 5 to 10 and was wondering what changes that would bring.  Maybe it wasn't deliverd in the clearest way and many of our arguements have been put in the wrong thread reguarding the use of proxies.

@thecapn:  As far as more proxies distorting the metagame.  Well I have a collection that I can build almost any type 1 deck out there without proxying a card.  My past decks that I've toted to tournys here in New England have been TNT pre Jan, Long pre Jan, and recently UW Landstill.  You can see that I'm currently running a deck that most people with 5 proxies could run.  I could build dragon if I wished, but I think Landstill was the better choice at the time.  That's my imput on your question.

-Keith

[Ifflejink]

Proxies open up the environment to a variety of players and base the game on skill rather than financial situations. Sure, prices for power may decrease slightly, but that doesn't mean that they won't still have relatively enourmous value. I play in a meta that's mainly filled with scrubs, but a few fully-powered and highly skilled players win all of the tournaments. Honestly, I don't like having to play against Tier 5 decks for two rounds; I like to play against something with a moderate challenge. With 10-12 proxies, the metagame can only grow healthier. How will decks being more competative (as in running power) adversly affect metas? It's simple: they won't. Just my two cents.

[Thissa]

A lack of proxies does one thing to the metagame, and that is removing bits and pieces of the element of skill. Because not everyone can afford expensive or semi expensive cards, if you have too few proxies then you are forcing players to make do with a deck that is less optimal then they would like it to be; meaning they have a greater chance of losing. Not everyone can afford expensive cards...

For example, I have a friend who cannot even afford duals and needs to get all his cards by trading, and his collection doesn't sport that many good cards, although he has about enough to keep one decent Type 1 deck (monocolor and with only just a few $5+ cards in it) built at a time. This has basically limited him to Fish, Sinkholeless Suicide, and IsoSligh. He is a new player to Vintage, a growing format that still needs newcomers. His local tournaments don't allow proxies, although those are just 1.5. But the point is the lack of proxies has distorted his choice for the metagame. Of course Type 1 is a lot different from Type 1.5, but similar problems afflict many many more players in Type 1 than in 1.5.

5 proxies is way too little. I am aquainted with many different players, but every one of them who's heard of Type 1 always seems to think that Type 1 is a format where you need to spend thousands of dollars. I tell them that 5-proxy is a reality, but many players beleive that it is impossible to build a viable deck in Type 1 with just 5 proxies, since people mainly in FNMs that I've talked to all seem to share this murky view about Type 1 that you HAVE to run duals, you HAVE to run Mana Drains, and that there are 10 power, not 5. I try to tell them that monocolor decks are good too, but alas, few really get the lessons of Fish and Oshawa Stompy into their heads and continue to absorb the outwardly spiraling hype about power-juiced keeper and $20000 storm decks that comes from the core of the Type 1 community and becomes the only information that they hear. The echoes of the Chalice of the Void hype that managed to reach the ears of the near-deaf-and-not-yet-vintage players didn't help them to consider any budget aggro deck (they've mainly only heard about Sligh) to be any good. Trinisphere didn't help them there either. So basically what we've got is a fairly large potential player pool that has absorbed just the hype. 5 proxies is enough to build a nearly optimal build of Oshawa Stompy, and enough to build a good Fish deck, but not too many have heard of Oshawa Stompy/Food Chain and the already-restrictive 5 proxy rule isn't even universal yet.

In order to create a truly perfect Type 1 world based entirely on skill and not on money (while still giving Wizards a profit), we need that 10-12 proxy rule spread across the globe... we must plant the seeds of that world and let is sprout so Type 1 can take over major governmental positions in powerful countries so that we can crown Smem--- er, well, I guess we just need those proxies for equal opportunity or something like that.

I think I've typed enough for now...

[doomhed]

As I see it, the general rule of 5 is pretty balancing, keeping players who are not willing to spend the time, effort and energy required to get better decks and cards from winning all the time. with 5 proxies, it helps the guy who is going to appreciate that mox emerald alot  more to win it. sure, he may only have an LoA, 3 drains and a jet, but he can play keeper and have a shot at winning with 5 proxies, as opposed to losing to slavery round one because his opponant had all the cheap cards in the deck and proxied 1/5 his cards.

I have seen this at the proxy tournaments I have run and I have seen a player who needed the power win it. it made me alot happier than the ppl who were whining  because they could not build the deck(s) they wanted because they would rather buy a box of scourge (the new set at the time) then buy the 2 mana drains he needed to make fully proxied gay/r (again, this is awhile ago).

5 proxies allows for a better format, with ppl who deserve the chance to win having a better chance of winning it.

[mask]

the more allowed proxies = the reduced cost in chase cards. Since most players with a limited budget perfer not to get their playset if they could proxy, the chase rares prices i would assume drop something like 10-20%.

Proxy create a stronger and healthy envirorment. Major events proxies should be reduced to max of 5 or less, simply put if every one proxies then there is no need to own any of the cards. otherwise local tourments or events sure 10 15 or whatever, but i feel nay more than 10 would be playing apprentice so to speak.

Remember Collectabilty of cards is also part of playing this great game.

i rather own the cards myself and set proxies to 0 it just always more fun to play the real thing, it gives the moments a lasting impressions.

if someone already missed this sorry i didn;t catch i was skimming through.

[Gaea]

If you haven't got enough money why don't you play other games? or go and play t2 or ext.... i saw many many people telling they want proxies cause they dont' want to buy power 9 and then spending lots of money in stupid t2 foil cards or boxes...
You say lots of people got the skill but no cards so i tell you what happens when you see a totally scrub/beginner player playing a deck like tendrils or keeper instead of a simple deck like sligh or zoo... i think you would get a little bit angry...
And i repeat my question cause people doesn't want to understand...: do you think a meta without sligh, monoblack e co will be good???? i don't think so, it will became a boring meta with just hulk, keeper, dragon, ws deck and no other type...if in your meta there are 60% scrub with 12 proxies you will find the same 60% scrub with the difference that they play keeper (as they play it....   ) instead of sligh

[jazzykat]

You say lots of people got the skill but no cards so i tell you what happens when you see a totally scrub/beginner player playing a deck like tendrils or keeper instead of a simple deck like sligh or zoo... i think you would get a little bit angry...

No, I would just beat them really fast and move on  

I think most budget decks are to underpowered(I am playing Landstill as a metagame choice). How often do you see one t8, better yet how often does anyone see one win. We play a format that is defined by speed, and defying the rules of the game with certain cards. A very good player in a local meta with a budget deck can win.

In a large tournament they usually don't. If budget decks were so hot then how come you don't see mox winners running them (JP, Steve, Eastman, etc) Note: Ill Dawg did play Big O and he has won power.

Reason: For the same one that Peter Schumacher doesn't race in a Pinto!

[johnstown713]

I am not quite understanding why everyone thinks type 1 is so much of an investment.  The initial investment is a lot for the power and duals but other than that it is not that bad.  I am a longtime type 2 player and a new comer to type 1.  I have invested in the power nine and other things.  It seems to me that type 2 is MORE expensive in the long run because things keep cycling out so you have to keep buying over and over.  You cannot just assume that type 2 is cheaper.  Is it just me or does anyone see the same thing.  KEEP 5 PROXIES.

[Gaea]

I don't know maybe you live in another planet... we have usually 60/70 people tournaments and very often 1 or 2 players in top8 have play unspoilered decks! this sunday we had a 134 people tournament, you read well 134! and an unspoilered gay fish uw was in top8
bye bye

[jazzykat]

OK, I stand corrected on T8's (damn fish ). Besides the mono green lando, how many times have non powered decks won a big tourney ie 50+ people(Dr. Sylvan any one????)? Why aren't the T1 wonderminds raving about their amazing non powered decks?

[Jacob Orlove]

This is getting ridiculously off-topic. Closed.