[Discussion] Will 10 proxies produce a distored meta?

[thecapn]

I've read a lot about the ways that 5 proxy tournaments distort the metagame by making the decks that are the most competitive with a low number of power or other expensive cards disproportionately common.  The most common example is that Oshawa Stompy gets played a lot because it really only needs 6 money cards: Lotus, Emerald, and 4x Bazaar.  In the 10 proxy metagame, it seems like the question no longer becomes do you have the power and/or workshops minus 5 to run your deck, but do you have duals and/or Mana Drains to run it?  Will decks that hover around the ten power range or power 10 plus a low number of duals be disproportionately represented?
   
   It seems like 4 levels emerge:
1. Enough cards to run fully powered workshop decks
2. Enough cards to run powered decks with mana drains and duals
3. Enough cards to run powered decks with just duals
4. Own or can borrow a handful of duals

[Note: For the purpose of this discussion I'm using the posted gauntlet decklists.]
    Level 4 includes a lot of the new combo decks: twister.dec, neo-long, and TPS; all have a low dual count, making the deck fairly obtainable for non type-1 players.   Landstill has a low enough power count that one would only need to find 3 Volcanic Islands to play it. Gay/R can be run on an incredibly low budget, with the player being able to proxy duals, as can landstill.  Will these decks become a sizable chunk of the metagame?

    Another thing that may keep the metagame less distorted is that 10 proxies gives teams or groups of friends lots of flexibility in loaning cards.  If I run my power and proxy duals and mana drains, then my friend can run my duals and mana drains and proxy his power.  

    If it wasn't obvious, I started this thread in an attempt to try to deduce more information about the North East Type 1 Championships metagame.  If you're from New England and know more about metagame distortion through experience or if you can apply it directly to your knowledge of that tournament scene, please chime in.  If I'm going to drive nine hours I'm going to study as much as I can... Let me know what you all think.  Peace.

[Smash]

ANY proxies will distory the metagame. Allowing 1 proxy will give your metagame 50% more black lotus's.

I think the question of the matter is, is this what you want? Yes it prepares you better for big tournaments (gencon etc.), but yes, it does distort the way magic was designed, and IMHO should be played.

[M.Solymossy]

5 proxies?  

I currently own NO power... no bazaar, no Drains, NO workshops, no duals ect.(note: I HAVE owned 4 pieces of power and 1 drain, as well as 4 of ever dual)  I think the most expensive cards i own currently own are my unlimited sinkholes.  Im doing just fine.


I have played and beat fully powered decks.  So in my honest oppinion, NO PROXIES should be allowed

[Spizzard]

You can sit there and say your unpowered deck is just as good as fully powered decks, but that is a bunch of B.S.  Even suicide could use the benefit of a mox and lotus.  It may be decent without, but it is not as good as it could be.

    Allowing proxies gives people the option to play anything instead of limiting their options to certain decks which they have the cards for.  If anything allowing 10/5 proxies gives a better depiction of what a healthy metagame is like rather than worse.  I don't see what would be wrong with more competition rather than multiples of random.dec

[M.Solymossy]

i didn't say my deck is better or worse than any power deck.  What happens happens.  I just prefer mainboarding 4 chalice of the void and 4 null rod vs spending 1500 bucks on bad condition unlimited power.

[Ric_Flair]

This discussion has the issue entirely backwards.  The metagame, as the term was traditionally used, was defined as the strategic and tactical decisions made based on the composition of the tournament scene.  That is, choosing and building decks in a way to take advantage of matchups and so on.  Implicit in the notion of the metagame, especially as it referenced non-Vintage formats at the time, is the assumption that the optimal environment or something substantially similar will exist.  When the term first came into use heavily, around the immediately prior to Necropotence, but after the split in formats, that is around the time of the first Pro Tour, metagame always meant the best possible format.  At the time, no one was preparing for Red burn and dragon decks because they sucked.  The metagame was geared around Armageddon and Millstone decks.  Decks that did well, beat those decks.  So the origin of the term implies an ideal metagame.

So the question as posed:

Will decks that hover around the ten power range or power 10 plus a low number of duals be disproportionately represented?

is the wrong one.  The question should be, will proxies correct for the distortion that exists in the metagame caused by the lack of expensive cards?  A metagame, as the term was developed, would conceive of a Vintage where every card is available.  Thus decks like O Stompy would be common place.  As would Workshop decks, decks with all the power and the like.  The metagame we have now is the distortion.  The question is whether the 10 proxy rule will correct this problem.

In all likelihood the 10 proxy rule will lead to a short term distortion for reasons that you failed to mention.  That is, people who have never got to play the ultra expensive decks will try them out regardless of how good they actually are, just because they can.  Over time though this novelty will wear off and the true metagame will present itself.

@ 13NoVa:

5 proxies?

I currently own NO power... no bazaar, no Drains, NO workshops, no duals ect.(note: I HAVE owned 4 pieces of power and 1 drain, as well as 4 of ever dual) I think the most expensive cards i own currently own are my unlimited sinkholes. Im doing just fine.


I have played and beat fully powered decks. So in my honest oppinion, NO PROXIES should be allowed

I don't understand what your deck's performance has to do with the argument for or against proxies, which is not the subject of this thread, though it is tangentially related.  Nor do I understand what your comments have to do with the question posed.  

Is the point that you can without proxies?  Fine, be proud of your accomplishment, but be aware that your deck IS suboptimal.  In a mirror match between an opponent of equal skill with the only difference begin you did not run the appropriate power and your opponent did, over time, you would lose.  The deck, without power, is unquestionably inferior.  Is the point that everyone should be forced to play substandard decks?  If this is your point I think that this approach is patently wrong.  Your next post demonstrates why.  

You said:

i didn't say my deck is better or worse than any power deck. What happens happens. I just prefer mainboarding 4 chalice of the void and 4 null rod vs spending 1500 bucks on bad condition unlimited power.

These are the EXACT kinds of concerns that have no bearing on Magic as a game.  They are not skill testing.  The moment money enters the equation the metagame is distorted.  End of story.  

Finally, as a small gripe this phrase should be banned from the argumentative arsenal of the human language: "what happens happens."  It is an utterly and entirely meaningless phrase.  It has no rhetorical force whatsoever.  It means, quite literally, that the result that proves your point was an accident.  If the result that proves your point is an accident, then by in large, your point or position is founded not on reason, but chance.  Chance has no persuasive force at all.

[Dante]

5 proxies?  

I currently own NO power... no bazaar, no Drains, NO workshops, no duals ect.(note: I HAVE owned 4 pieces of power and 1 drain, as well as 4 of ever dual)  I think the most expensive cards i own currently own are my unlimited sinkholes.  Im doing just fine.


I have played and beat fully powered decks.  So in my honest oppinion, NO PROXIES should be allowed

This isn't a discussion about competing and how many proxies you can have, let's keep the discussion on the main point "Does 10 proxies produce a distorted metagame".

First off, if you have to proxy dual lands.....well I feel sorry for you.  This hobby does take SOME monetary committment..

It depends on your definition of metagame.  I think at this point in Magic's development, the ideal metagame is where everyone would have access to all the cards, allowing them to play any deck they choose, not limited by card access.

Let's look at 10 proxies and some of the competitive decks:

Keeper : can proxy 5 artifacts (4 mox 1 lotus), 2 power blue, and 2 mana drains.  the other cards are cheap (i.e. $20 or less).  So worst case you drop 2 moxen (emerald is iffy to begin with) or 1 mox 1 timewalk to pay the 2 drains.  Very playable on 10 proxies.  You might miss LoA

Hulk: same as keeper, a lot have replaced the pearl with mana crypt to begin with.

TnT: proxy 6 artifacts and 4 workshops, what else do you need

Stax: proxy 6 artifacts and 4 workshops, now you're missing ancestral and Twister.  2 power cards short.

Control Slavery: same as keeper
Workshop slavery: see above (replace 4 drains with 4 workshop)
Dragon: 6 artifact, 1 blue, 4 Bazaar - missing 1 card, very playable.

TPS/Twister : 6 artifact, 1 ancestral, 1 twister, possible 1 time walk - playable.

Madness: 4 bazaars, lotus, 2 mox.  7 cards.  if you add blue, then sapphire, and 2 power blue bring it up to 10.


Basically the argument is that at 10 proxies, you can play almost any deck with a reasonable type 1 card supply (these include dual lands, cheap out of prints like balance, mind twist, etc, and cards under $20).

It's when you only have 5 proxies that things get distorted, because now someone CAN't proxy the 6 artifacts and a set of drains or workshops or bazaars.

Dante

[Smmenen]

A bad number of proxies is the worst possible outcome.

In a totally no proxy environment at least is "real."  However, the goal should be to faciliate a competitive environment - a highly competitive environment.  From that perspective, allowing less than the right number of proxies is highly distorting because then, for the first time, a proxy rule DISTORTS the metagame - that is what I witnessed at the Waterbury.

As such, I beleive that the optimal number of proxies, if we are to stick with a number, and excluding unlimted and zero for the moment, is 12.  

Why 12?  

No deck with Workshops or Bazaars or Drains or Masks or any other expensive card uses all power nine - they generally use 8 of the power nine.  A 12 limit would allow people to play fully powered dragon and mask and Workshop decks as well as Combo and Tog and Keeper.

Stephen Menendian

[defector]

Good pionts from both Flair and Steve.  I would like to see 12 or so myself.  No deck runs all nine, so that would leave at least three slots open for other expensive but necesary cards.  My friends and I run a lot of proxies now becuase it's cheaper and more fun.  I own 4 power cards in my tourney deck, I don't run proxies in that because of dci rules, in my casual decks I do.  I don't see any elements of distortion.  I wish we woudl just dump the dci in general and allow ten-twelve proxy tourneys.  We woudl watch our community become independent and explode in growth.  Oh well, wishful thinking I guess.  I favor proxies just liek I favor reprints, I don't care what my cards are worth, I want to playu them and I don't want to be the only one playing them either.
thanx,
defector

[Mixing Mike]

It's not all that hard to borrow power.  Only total jerks don't get it.  I personally don't see any point of even building a deck if you're not withing a few power cards of it.  Drains ARE nessecary for control.  Prison doesn't work without Workshops, etc....

If you're to build a deck, then build the deck damnit.  This game is ment for the comitted.  The more comitted you are, the more powerful cards you'll have, just because you want to play a lot of decks at the best they can be.  5 proxies is something I support, I don't like more than that.

[Matt]

When you ask, "do proxies distort the metagame?" you presuppose that there is a 'normal' metagame to be distorted from, which I do not believe exists.

If everyone who's used to having five proxies is forced to run zero, they must play different decks - is that not just as surely a distortion from their norm as going from zero to some other number (be it five, ten, or unlimited)?

[Jacob Orlove]

I think the meta to compare anything to would be infinite proxies. That's the only way to have a universally defined format that produces consistent, reproducible results.

With that said, the distortions from 10 proxies will be less than from 5 (fish, GPR/O. Stompy, GAT, etc.), and much less than from 0 (sligh, sui, etc.). There may be a few decks that are slightly underrepresented, but I think enough people will have at least a little power/a set of drains or shops or whatever that it should be very close to the ideal.

[Ephraim]

It's not all that hard to borrow power.  Only total jerks don't get it.  I personally don't see any point of even building a deck if you're not withing a few power cards of it.  Drains ARE nessecary for control.  Prison doesn't work without Workshops, etc....

If you're to build a deck, then build the deck damnit.  This game is ment for the comitted.  The more comitted you are, the more powerful cards you'll have, just because you want to play a lot of decks at the best they can be.  5 proxies is something I support, I don't like more than that.

Some people need to win a tournament or two to fill out their existing collections - or maybe even just to get started on a collection of power. The biggest advantage of proxy tournaments with power as the prize is that skillful players with little capital can win their power, instead of buying it.

[Smash]

It's not all that hard to borrow power.  Only total jerks don't get it.  I personally don't see any point of even building a deck if you're not withing a few power cards of it.  Drains ARE nessecary for control.  Prison doesn't work without Workshops, etc....

If you're to build a deck, then build the deck damnit.  This game is ment for the comitted.  The more comitted you are, the more powerful cards you'll have, just because you want to play a lot of decks at the best they can be.  5 proxies is something I support, I don't like more than that.

Some people need to win a tournament or two to fill out their existing collections - or maybe even just to get started on a collection of power. The biggest advantage of proxy tournaments with power as the prize is that skillful players with little capital can win their power, instead of buying it.

The thing is, it DOESN'T happen. The skillful players go "Whee, why buy power when I can just proxy it" and they sell the power for cash back to the store. It happens every time.

[FreddieNDB]

I believe the metagame is distorted when there are NO proxies. That is because many play suboptimal decks.

In my own metgame there are a few powered players( probably about 15-20%) the rest unpowered. Luckily, my local card shop has 5-proxy tournaments.

even so, I wish it were 10 proxies which would fit perfect for my 6 power cards( including LoA) and 4 drains.

10-12 proxies seems to me to be the best number for the most competative and fun metagames.[/code]

[Gaea]

competitive meta with 10 proxies? i don't think it will be... with lots and lots of proxies decks like sligh, monoblack ecc... that every deck must consider in his card choices will disappear.
If you think that a meta in wich some people run zoo, sligh, monoblack or what else is a bad meta i think you are so wrong... in my meta (and we have no proxies... so following your words the meta would be distorted...) there are 65% spoilered decks and 35% of unspoilered.
I think that people that doesn't want to spend money should change game... maybe go and play ext, there are no moxes to buy there...

[jpmeyer]

Now that I think about it, part of the reason that I wanted to win power tournies before was because I only got 5 proxies and I didn't want to keep having to borrow cards from people.  But yeah, now I can just go "Who has $250 on them?"

[Aeneas]

To thecapn:

Regarding your attempts to decipher which decks will be prevalent at the North East Champs, the tourney, being one with 5 proxies will probably lead to more mid-level power decks.  These include decks such as Fish, Gay, and O Stompy.  If I were a betting man, I would put my money on those making a decent showing at the Championships.

-Matt Kent

[Matt]

competitive meta with 10 proxies? i don't think it will be... with lots and lots of proxies decks like sligh, monoblack ecc... that every deck must consider in his card choices will disappear.

If decks stop preparing for Sligh and Suicide, then play Sligh or Suicide, and you'll win. This is the very DEFINITION of 'metagame'.

If people don't prepare for Suicide and still beat it, then it only shows that Suicide was being played in artificially high numbers (due to budget constraints). I call this distortion.

[jazzykat]

I know magic is a CCG but in order to make the meta truly competitive I think 10-12 proxy would be best.

That way anyone can make any deck for under $1000. I played in a T1 tourney where no one had power but me, guess what I stopped going.


Beating up on unpowered decks sucked balls, it wasn't worth my time and gas to drive down to the tourney to take a small prize away from a bunch of people that were having fun.

It has been said before and I will say it again, T1 will reach critical mass where there are no more power cards to go around. Yeah you can still get them on Ebay (see my thread in the newbie forum about if I will do that again).

You know this topic is a dead horse. People who believe in a healthy competitive environment allow many proxies. People who are concerned more about their collections than playing will keep arguing for no proxies.

For all those people who don't like proxies that live in the US, guess what you better go to Europe because most tourneys are 5 and the last few tourneys were up to 10 or more!!! Or just don't attend those tourneys and be happy knowing that you have your precious power.

Oh and for the record if you think I am a whining have not: I have drains, LOA, 7of 9 power + a spare ancestral, all the duals that matter and some that don't. I want to play against a bad ass deck, not some kid with soldiers(I actually played against one last Friday, really nice guy, terrible deck).

[Ric_Flair]

@Smash:

The thing is, it DOESN'T happen. The skillful players go "Whee, why buy power when I can just proxy it" and they sell the power for cash back to the store. It happens every time.

EVERY TIME?  Really, you have been there?  AT EVERY SINGLE TOURNAMENT, EVERY SINGLE TIME?  I find this hard to believe.  Hyperbole serves no purpose here.  We are trying (still) to hash out a workable proxy policy.  Making statements like this does not further this policy debate.  I would like to ask people to refrain from using hyperbole and anecdotal evidence as their sole means of proving a point.

The fact is that I know a good number of people who play and win major prizes as major tournaments that keep them.

More to the point, what harm does it do to you if they sell back the power?  It just means that there is another piece for those who don't have power to buy.  I see this situation akin to that of the fishing rules in most states.  In most states if you catch a fish in public water that is less than a certain size by law, you have to throw it back.  The thought is that young fish are an important resource and better to have lots of young fish that can eventually become big fish for people to catch.  Catching mature fish doesn't really hurt supply, because they are nearing the end of the life cycle.  But catching young fish does.  

In my mind people that I know, like Jeff (Samite Healer), Jacob, Mykeatog, Hulk Rules, and others that have plenty of power should sell the cards back, so that those of us who are lacking some pieces can have an opportunity to win them or buy them.

Even if the people that win don't have Power and choose to sell it back I fail to see how that harms you.

[CHA1N5]

I would like to see 12 or so myself.  No deck runs all nine

COUGHhttp://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13508/COUGH

[ctthespian]

I have said it many times on TMD already.  Proxies are a dual edged sword.  A necessary evil because of our outlook on the game.  They bring in more people to play because they alleviate the financial burden of investing in the game.  However, they also have their problems.

First proxies do distort the metagame.  Magic is a collectable card game and there is a limited card pool.  The argument of these idyllic “unlimited card pools” for each player is just silly and takes the “Collectable” portion of the CCG out.  Having an unlimited card pool makes Magic not that  different from Poker.  Look at the European metagame.  There is a true metagame that doesn’t allow proxies with committed players.  Their events usually top 100 people as well.  I can’t say frequent events here in the states would without proxies.

Smash made a point about players selling power instead of keeping them.  I have also seen this and though it doesn’t happen every time I feel that increasing the proxy limits would just increase this mindset.  WOTC repeatedly says they will not reprint cards.  (I have my own theory on why that is, but this is not the place for that discussion.)  One of their reasons is that they care about the secondary market and the value of the cards.  As much as I’d like to see reprints happen I admire WOTC for caring.  If the mindset of, “I can just proxy this card so why keep it?  Sell it instead.” becomes more prevalent because of increased proxy limits, we may destroy the secondary market as power cards have less demand.

Personally if any number is right for proxies, even though I like the number 5 fine, it's 7.  Seven proxies allow you build decks like landstill and oshawa stompy that don't run full power.   From there you can compete in even metagames like New England and have a chance at winning power.  From there you can win pieces till the 7 proxies allow you to proxy decks like Keeper, MUD, and other fully powered decks with drains or the expensive lands.

I wish people had the view that proxies aren’t necessary as the Europeans do.  However if that’s what it takes to get more people in my country playing I’ll live with it.  It doesn’t mean I have to like it though.

-Keith

[jpmeyer]

Just so you know, Magic is no longer officially referred to as a "collectable card game" and is instead referred to as a "trading card game."

[Bigboned]

I am all for proxies, as I have witnessed local metagames being skewed by hordes of WW... Being forced to choose deck based on whether or not it can take down WW is in my mind very format distorting...

[ctthespian]

I am all for proxies, as I have witnessed local metagames being skewed by hordes of WW... Being forced to choose deck based on whether or not it can take down WW is in my mind very format distorting...

Isn't that what this game is all about.  Adapting to change and variation in decks.  If you environment has tons of WW you "metagame" against it.  Personally an environment of the same type of decks makes the game boring in my opinion.  I was psyched when I met PT Funk in a tourny a few weeks ago.  I wasn't expecting it and it kicked my butt.  Props for him.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Wow, now I know how all those people who were sick of the critical mass discussion felt in like mid-November. This has gotta be the tenth thread on this just in February.

Can't we all just get along?

[virtual]

As much as I’d like to see reprints happen I admire WOTC for caring. If the mindset of, “I can just proxy this card so why keep it? Sell it instead.” becomes more prevalent because of increased proxy limits, we may destroy the secondary market as power cards have less demand.

This may have some merit, but there are factors which will cause power to maintain their value.  If one did own every piece of power, then could use their proxies towards cards that were good in the current metagame, but not great as long term type 1 cards.  Certain cards are worth having in type 1 because they can be used in so many decks, and they will probably have a home somewhere in type 1 forever.  (Force of will, Duals, Fetches, etc)  If a player owns these (power of which are the main/most expensive component) they could use their proxy slots for other cards.  (Though it is a bit ghetto proxying worldgorgers when you have a full set in the deck).  That would mean that you could invest a single 1 time cost into magic (power, etc), then be able to play for a long time/forever with very little of a future investment.  Type 2 is more expensive to play over time, if you buy all of your cards.  So long as people play the game, and they aren't reprinted, the power 9 will hold most if not all of their value.  Also, wizards won't allow proxies in sanctioned tournaments, so people will still need power for those particular events.  

-Virtual

[johnstown713]

yes, I believe that it ruins it for the people that have power.  Although I see the case that people are saying about newcomers.  It brings people so it is good but stay at five and make people invest a little.  Hell I got a job to pay for stuff.

[thecapn]

I guess I'd like to start off by saying that this thread isn't about how many proxies we should allow, whether we should allow proxies, who needs or doesn't need to spend money/get a job, or how much power you do or don't have.  These are related topics, and they have their own threads.  Perhaps I wasn't clear, or perhaps this is why there's a restricted type 1 forum...

So now i'll try to restate things or clear up some misunderstandings.

I conceive of the ideal metagame as the decks people would play if they had all the available cards.  When I refer to the metagame I assume that a) people will play the best decks and b) the best decks are the tier 1 decks defined by the TMD community.

I was attempting to start a discussion of how close a ten proxy metagame would look compared to this idealized metagame.  Since Ric_Flair brought up the excellent point that there would be change in the 10 proxy metagame over time, I'd like to focus more specifically on how the availability of 10 proxies will affect the metagame Type 1 North American Championships.  Will the 10 proxies allow for it to look close to the ideal type 1 metagame, or will there be a disproportionate amount of decks that function well with 10 proxies, as is seen in a 5 proxy metagame?