Restriction happy?

[Razvan]

Parfait? How in the holy hell? Your deck is NASTY .

Well, I am glad you are having a bunch of really good finishes lately. We'll see what happens when I start actually playing (hopefully be able to soon).

Matt, interesting point.

[Raph Caron]

People complain because they are not completely happy with the way things are. I guess it's ok to ask for a better game if it's possible.

[Moridar]

At this tournament over the weekend I had a few people bitch and make other comments about decks running Bazaars, Workshops and other high end cards.  I loaned out my Workshops to a friend who was verbally insulted for using cards he didn't own.  These people always complain about the price of cards...   But the area really likes limited and type 2.  But they play a version of Type 1 that bans wishes, power 9 and a few screwball cards...   If you have questions about this format

Just because a card is effective doesn't mean it needs to be banned/restricted.

Wayne

[SpencerForHire]

I sold my WS's because I was so worried about restriction, now, Im running FCG cause its soooo awsome
Anwho the point of my post, whenever anywho came around my local hangout and said such cards should be restricted I just responded with, "Did you hear basic islands are on the watch list?"
This shuts up a majority of them because they got tired when Stax kicked there ***.  (Majority of the complainers play "Keeper" (in reality they are decks that they can throw as many counter spells in as they can and a single morphling.)

[Razvan]

Raph: That's true, but you can never make everyone happy. I know that I won't be happy if they restrict Bazaar and Workshop, primarily because the former set me back 300 canadian, and it took me 4 years and a LOT of trading to get the latter set. I don't think it's the money as much as the energy wasted.

Not everyone can be happy. Not even a majority. I don't think the restricted list needs ANY changes except unrestricting the random card or the other.

Wayne: what did the verbal assault entail? F*cking idiots. Instead of bitching, how about making decks designed to beat the others.

Wastelands for Workshops and Bazaars. Hell, even more hate. Bazaar SUCKS with Megrim out, and believe me, I found that out the hard way. That's the way.

And neither card had the impact Force of Will has. Ugh...

[Garth One Eye]

The restricted list should be treated like government: a neccessary evil.  It absolutely has a very important purpose, but when it grows out of control, it hurts everyone and becomes counter-productive.

Overall, Wizards has done a good job with it, but players need to realize that adapting to their meta with better deck building/playing is far more prudent than needlessly increasing the restricted list.

[Necrologia]

Um, I think you guys should look into PMs before a mod brings his wrath down upon you.

[jpmeyer]

STOP.  USE PM'S.[/color]

[Raph Caron]

Razvan :

It tells a lot when people say they don't want a card to be restricted because of the monetary impact. This is a game, and the B&R list should not be influenced by second market values.

Also, I'm sick and tired of the "go play T2" fad. Who the hell are you to say to people what format they should play?

This is a game and people have their opinions about how it can be made better. If there was no way to change anything, yes, some people would quit. For example, there is no way to change anything in the SNES Street Fighter II cartridge. Love it or leave it. But Magic is different. We *do* have some power on what is restricted or not.

I'm not on the side of the budget player and I'm not on the side of the elite either. I'm on the side of the game, this format and its beauty.

The biggest problem for whiners like me is that the current metagame is balanced. The power level is a bit too high for my liking, but I'll survive.

[iccarus]

It tells a lot when people say they don't want a card to be restricted because of the monetary impact. This is a game, and the B&R list should not be influenced by second market values.

But with magic being a collectible card game, it is inherently influenced by this in the long run.  Obviously, Wizards cares about the secondary market to some extent, or we'd have been flooded with countless reprints of power and other T1 staples by now.

Those I hear complaining about restrictions are usually the people who are at a disadvantage because they don't have access to the big money cards.  They'd change their tune if they actually put up the money and got a few of the more pricey "restriction worthy" cards.

[jpmeyer]

Magic, along with most card games nowadays, aren't called CCG's any more.  They're TCG's: Trading Card Games.  This is because the whole collecting thing messes up the playing aspect.  Exhibit A: the Decipher Star Wars game, where decks really actually required ultra-rare cards.

[Razvan]

Magic, along with most card games nowadays, aren't called CCG's any more. They're TCG's: Trading Card Games. This is because the whole collecting thing messes up the playing aspect.

Agreed.

It tells a lot when people say they don't want a card to be restricted because of the monetary impact. This is a game, and the B&R list should not be influenced by second market values.

Raph: So restricting a card just because a few people don't have the money to get them, or don't want to get them, is a better reason?

Case and point, take Workshop. The card got unrestricted, people shelled untold amount of money on it, and untol amount of energy, then they restrict it again? All the innovation, all the energy, all the time, wasted?

I am not saying that they should keep a degenerate card around just because it's expensive. Of course not. But the diametrical oposite is happening as we speak.

People whine they can't beat workshop because they go in with $20 decks. It's too strong, it's too broken, etc... then it gets restricted because those people are too damn cheap.

Hell, even $20 should be more than enough to kill workshop... anyone heard of 4 Null Rods? But people keep insisting to play with elves...

Anyhow, I am annoying myself now .

[Raph Caron]

So restricting a card just because a few people don't have the money to get them, or don't want to get them, is a better reason?

Definitively not. I never said such a thing. My approach is : that card, no matter what its value is, is harmful for the game. Harmful cards should be restricted IMO. For example, I'm a fervent advocate of Dark Ritual's restriction.

Case and point, take Workshop. The card got unrestricted, people shelled untold amount of money on it, and untol amount of energy, then they restrict it again? All the innovation, all the energy, all the time, wasted?

It was not wasted. All the innovation on Workshop decks allowed everyone to see how much it is broken. Players worldwide made top 8 with those decks and earned prizes. Congratulations to them! They broke the card!

But now, it can't be Christmas everyday. It's time to say bye bye to the offending card. Do not be afraid though! I'm pretty sure Workshop decks would still be very playable after a restriction. And they're going to be played by even more players since more Workshops will be available.

Don't worry, bad players will still lose to Workshop decks.

[Razvan]

Honestly, and maybe it's just me being a bad player, Workshop decks do need 4 shops to compete.

I played against Moridar's Mask decks today, and since they can EASILY get a 12/12 trampler on the table on turn 2, and a bit less easy on turn 1... well, let's just say that it's not pretty. Having no spot removal and no counterspells isn't exactly an easy task.

You are right on:

that card, no matter what its value is, is harmful for the game

Well, you are right on most if not all things , but in this case... what if the card is broken, but not inheritly harmful to the game in general. It still goes 50/50 against most other decks (I have yet to see a dominant streak).

Anyhow, other than Long, which is heavily kept in check by Workshop, I don't really see anyone breaking Ritual anyhow. But it's keeping Black decks alive since 1993 .

Anyhow, it's late, I am a bit "tipsy", so it's time to go to sleep.

[ctthespian]

Draw 7's are completely symmetrical, there is no reason that they should still be restricted.

I think this is just a bit laced with sarcasam.   Especially since the author of this quote happens to be the creator of a deck designed to stop multiple card drawing.

Wait.  I hope that sarcasm

[Loci]

Harmful cards should be restricted IMO. For example, I'm a fervent advocate of Dark Ritual's restriction.
...
But now, it can't be Christmas everyday. It's time to say bye bye to the offending card.

So true. I cannot believe this is still not clear for all to see. Perhaps the toys are too nice to give up.

[Moridar]

Workshops = Aggro + Prison decks and a healthy metagame.

No workshops = Tog + Control Metagame...

If WotC was to restrict the hell out of the current metagame you'd see the metagame shift to control.  

Everyone has their opinion on this topic and I really doubt that there will ever be a agreement on this.

Wayne

[Loci]

Everyone has their opinion on this topic and I really doubt that there will ever be a agreement on this.
Wayne

I agree. That is, until some one has a deck that is too much with the cards included and rapes everything.

Workshops = Aggro + Prison decks and a healthy metagame.

No workshops = Tog + Control Metagame...

If WotC was to restrict the hell out of the current metagame you'd see the metagame shift to control.  

You could be right, but I think it is way too easy to claim there will not be any aggro or prison left after restricting Mishra's Workshop and Dark Ritual. Still, if above happens no one will be able to stop the restriction. And, I said it before, it is just a matter of time.

We can discuss this until we all turn blue but neither Mishra's Workshop nor Dark Ritual will go until they fuel a killer deck that rapes the meta.

[Razvan]

The only way people will see the damage is to pre-restrict something.

For example, run a tourney with no workshop decks. Then, after you see Combo go simply nuts (not that it can't do that against a workshop deck, it's just a lot less of an auto-pilot), tell me again.

Dark Ritual, I am still unsure about. It is abused in combo, but that's kept in check by Workshop decks.

I won't ask why Mana Drain is not restricted   .

[Moridar]

That could work.  It could be worth running it online or something.

Wayne