Restriction happy?

[Razvan]

Is it just me, or is everyone and their horse these days trying to get everything restricted?

There's this one dude on SCG.com whining about how Workshop should get the boot, because it restricts Stompy decks... (even though, as any real player knows, nouveau-Stompy versions like Oshawa and their US equivalents are a nightmare for Workshop decks).

Another trigger-happy bunch of people are also whining about how Bazaar should get restricted because Worldgorger Dragon is such a good deck. Blah, blah, blah, I can't play with Shivan Dragon because I will be dead by turn 6. Dragon wins without Bazaar, so it's obviously not a deathly-vital card, but taking it out might hurt it enough to not be able to compete.

Again... am I the only one that realizes that needless restrictions will just hurt the format beyond repair?

The great fun from building decks is that you should build them against the opposition. If you want to play Solitaire combo decks (as in those that whine about the Workshop), play Windows Solitaire. It's still cards...

The environment grows because people think forward. They try to use new cards, and try to build decks that beat those "top" decks. If you take a step backwards, then you can at best hope for stagnation.

If you restrict Workshop, then Bazaar, you killed a whole slew of deck archetypes. TnT, Stax, Dragon, Madness... I played a Bazaar / Tog version that was pretty good... those are the decks that DO show up in the Top 8, and still manage to steal the top spot from dedicated control, such as real Tog variants, Keeper variants, etc...

If you restrict Workshop and Bazaar, blue based control will absolutely dominate the environment (again, I think... there's still the issue of Storm Combo, and the dreadful Trix Variants). Then they'll whine that Force of Will and Mana Drain are too strong.

So those get restricted.

Then pure aggro goblins will dominate. Goblin Lackey will get restricted, a-la 1.5.

Then... um... restrict Troll Ascetic? Since it can infinitely block Scaled Worm... it's too good.

We'll end up with Type 2. At least they will allow the Troll Ascectic.

A wizards deck won the last Untouchables tournament here. A freaking Wizards deck. With Voidmage Apprentice and whatever other Wizards came from Onslaught and the neighboring sets.

Argh... sorry... had to vent...

-Razvan

[Jebus]

It's best not to dwell on peoples opinions of what should and should not be restricted, as they really don't matter anyway.

I cannot see any more Dragon combo pieces going away anytime soon.

Of all the cards you mentioned, the only one even close to restriction would be Workshop and I really don't see it going away (although I wouldn't really be suprised).

[Razvan]

It's best not to dwell on peoples opinions of what should and should not be restricted, as they really don't matter anyway.

Sadly, if WotC is listening, and since there's a lot of housewives whining (nothing against housewives), they might do something rash.

I cannot see any more Dragon combo pieces going away anytime soon.

It's not even about Dragon, it's about the fact that those are good, solid, fun cards.

Of all the cards you mentioned, the only one even close to restriction would be Workshop and I really don't see it going away (although I wouldn't really be suprised)

I so hope not. It would be stupid. They aren't Top-8ing like there's no tomorrow. In fact, Keeper, around here, has at least 3-4 spots most of the time, and we don't think it's broken. Just good players playing it.

But, it's the mob I fear.

[Dr. Sylvan]

WotC only listens to articles, and the loudest voices say "everything checks out, nothing to see here...for now". Plus, JP sends them emails about how they shouldn't listen to us anyway, and I'm sure he's very persuasive about it. :)

Really, don't worry about any forum thread discussing restrictions. Participate in the debate, sure, I've been known to shoot down and be shot down in those, but getting all concerned is unnecessary. Especially in any open forum. (BTW, it's been quiet on this topic around here except for things to UNrestrict.)

[Smmenen]

Its good to have people like Razvan around.  I used to have to do all the bitching myself.  Now I have people to say what I would have said anyway, saving me the time.

Steve

[jpmeyer]

Whining about restrictions: old and busted
Asking for unrestrictions: new hotness

[Eastman]

Draw 7's are completely symmetrical, there is no reason that they should still be restricted.

[Razvan]

Its good to have people like Razvan around. I used to have to do all the bitching myself. Now I have people to say what I would have said anyway, saving me the time.

Oh, good, I'm a lackey. *shakes fist*

Draw 7's are completely symmetrical, there is no reason that they should still be restricted.

They aren't in combo decks, and they aren't in prison decks (symmetrical). Just because a card is symmetrical, doesn't mean that it is not one-sided. Draw-7's can be abused (read: you have 2 cards, opponent has 6-7).

Whining about restrictions: old and busted
Asking for unrestrictions: new hotness

Whining about whiners about resctrictions: priceless .

[Dr. Sylvan]

They aren't in combo decks, and they aren't in prison decks (symmetrical). Just because a card is symmetrical, doesn't mean that it is not one-sided. Draw-7's can be abused (read: you have 2 cards, opponent has 6-7).

Mr. Lawrence was kidding. Everyone knows they have to stay restricted because they would endanger Keeper's dominance almost as much as Back to Basics!

[Toad]

They aren't in combo decks, and they aren't in prison decks (symmetrical). Just because a card is symmetrical, doesn't mean that it is not one-sided. Draw-7's can be abused (read: you have 2 cards, opponent has 6-7).

Mr. Lawrence was kidding. Everyone knows they have to stay restricted because they would endanger Keeper's dominance almost as much as Back to Basics!

Which should be restricted too because It's a single card that can win games on his own.

[jpmeyer]

Much like Wood Elemental

[DEA]

i'm almost ashamed to say i had to check what the heck that actually was
but if you're talking about my woody, well then, i agree entirely too  :lol:

[Nameless]

I'd just add that I'm an old-schooler, so when I started playing Magic again, a few years back now, I was shocked to see Workshop no longer restricted...

I'm of the opinion that no card should ever leave the restricted list.

Of course, that MAY be, in part, due to the fact that I always get the most pimp version of a restricted card for my collection, being that I only need 1 then, so it's really a bit of a pain in the ass.

Hrm, that was kinda selfish, but...  Ah, screw humans.

I'd kinda like to see more cards restricted, if for no other reason then to watch people play with decks like 'the restricted list plus land.dec' and stuff...  Those are funny!

[Smmenen]

A card should never leave the restricted list once its restricted?  

So Recall should not have been restricted?  That has nothing to do with being old school - that has to do with being irrational.  If a card isn't overpowering, then it can only enhance the game to unrestrict it.  

So you would sacrifice potential benefits to this game just to satisify some stubborn, idiosyncratic notion you have about how this game should be played.  

Steve

[mogote]

I'm of the opinion that no card should ever leave the restricted list.

Times are changing and the game of Magic surely evolved into something else than it was 10 years ago. Once powerful cards have lost the power they had in Magic's early days and should come off the restricted list asap.

I'd kinda like to see more cards restricted, if for no other reason then to watch people play with decks like 'the restricted list plus land.dec' and stuff...  Those are funny!

What is so great about having a restricted list as long as possible? Are you being serious about that?
The shorter it is the better it will be for creative deckbuilding.

[Nameless]

A card should never leave the restricted list once its restricted?  

So Recall should not have been restricted?  That has nothing to do with being old school - that has to do with being irrational.  If a card isn't overpowering, then it can only enhance the game to unrestrict it.  

So you would sacrifice potential benefits to this game just to satisify some stubborn, idiosyncratic notion you have about how this game should be played.  

Steve

WTF are you talking about?  How in any way shape or form did I say Recall should not have been restricted?  Or for that matter, how any card should not have been restricted?

Just because I don't agree with your ideas on the game of Magic I'm certainly not sitting around insulting you.  You got a comment to make then do so, but if you best you can do is name calling then just shut up already.

What is so great about having a restricted list as long as possible? Are you being serious about that?     The shorter it is the better it will be for creative deckbuilding.

I'd say that while the comment was made as a joke, quite the opposite seems to be true...  Fact or Fiction is a fantastic example of this...  Prior to the restriction of the card it was rampant over a ton of decks in Vintage, but when it hit the restricted list people scrambled for quite a while to find a suitable replacement for Keeper (among other decks) to keep up the card advantage.  While some people may feel that FoF no longer belongs on the restricted list, the simple fact of the matter is that in multiples it's very degenerate in the format.

Workshop is another card I'll use as an example...

When it was on the restricted list it still got into plenty of decks, and I don't really feel that there are any incredibly creative decks even using it now.  It's just thrown in because it's like having 4x extra Lotus in most cases.  They all seem so vanilla, with the exception perhaps of TnT, and I know for a fact that any deck using it now can function just as well with other replacements.  I know this much simply from watching so many people attend T1 tournaments who don't own Workshops and still manage to place very well without them in the same decks.  Just because I don't think a deck is creative doesn't mean I think it's a bad deck...

The B&R list does need a lot of work though.  Look at what the consider requirements to get inducted...  Then look at all the cards that have met those requirements over the course of the metagame that has been in flux for so long...  A couple of years ago a good argument was made to restrict Back to Basics, and why?  Because, it met every single obligation that they consider for a card to be restricted at the time.  The funny thing though is that the decks using it were also sporting Fact or Fiction, which got the axe instead.  Now that we look at the current metagame, does Back to Basics pose nearly the same problem as it once did?  Nope.  So it's no longer on the chopping block.  But the issue isn't so clear anymore, because it begs the question...  Could it potentially be as much of a problem as it once was before?  I think so, but that doesn't mean it will.

Cards were placed on the B&R list because they were broken at the time, or had incredible potential to be broken.  Now in a couple of cases, sure I can see where it might be logical to remove a card, but in most cases I generally feel along the lines of 'why risk it', and figure it's just as well to leave a card that was on the list exactly where it is, just to be safe.  I mean are there any decks suddenly more creative because Ali from Cairo came off the list?

[Razvan]

They all seem so vanilla, with the exception perhaps of TnT, and I know for a fact that any deck using it now can function just as well with other replacements. I know this much simply from watching so many people attend T1 tournaments who don't own Workshops and still manage to place very well without them in the same decks. Just because I don't think a deck is creative doesn't mean I think it's a bad deck...

So in that case, what you are saying is that Workshop should never be on the restricted list then, if the decks function well without them.

It's a gap in reasoning, but still... Workshop is used in TnT and Stax/MUD variants, none of which dominate the environment, at least not around here. Heck, there's only 2-3 people even playing it anymore.

I don't know about FoF, i didn't play during Invasion, by the time I got back it was already restricted. Also, unlike Workshop, FoF didn't have decks built around it. Blue decks existed since before FoF, and continued afterwards as well.

Workshop spawned a whole bunch of decks, and while I do agree that they can function without them, they will have little chance against a fully powered environment. The one mana difference between Ancient Tomb and Workshop is very large indeed, if it means one turn... if it means the opposing blue player goes from 1 island to 2 islands on the board.

[Nameless]

They all seem so vanilla, with the exception perhaps of TnT, and I know for a fact that any deck using it now can function just as well with other replacements. I know this much simply from watching so many people attend T1 tournaments who don't own Workshops and still manage to place very well without them in the same decks. Just because I don't think a deck is creative doesn't mean I think it's a bad deck...

So in that case, what you are saying is that Workshop should never be on the restricted list then, if the decks function well without them.

It's a gap in reasoning, but still... Workshop is used in TnT and Stax/MUD variants, none of which dominate the environment, at least not around here. Heck, there's only 2-3 people even playing it anymore.

I don't know about FoF, i didn't play during Invasion, by the time I got back it was already restricted. Also, unlike Workshop, FoF didn't have decks built around it. Blue decks existed since before FoF, and continued afterwards as well.

Workshop spawned a whole bunch of decks, and while I do agree that they can function without them, they will have little chance against a fully powered environment. The one mana difference between Ancient Tomb and Workshop is very large indeed, if it means one turn... if it means the opposing blue player goes from 1 island to 2 islands on the board.

You make some very good points, but I would then argue that while Mono-Blue (for example) is still around, it isn't nearly as powerful as it once was.  When we look back at the decks during that time, why they won, and what they used to win, we can see how they broke FoF in half.  The funny this is, if we unresticted FoF today those decks would not only pop back up, but they would be just as good as they were before, and perhaps even stronger.  The incredible card advantage you gained from running 4x FoF was intense, and nothing else can compare to it today.  In Mono-Blue, where redundancy was they key, those 4 FoFs would cut through a full 1/3 of your deck; there is no other draw engine that comes close even now a couple of years later.

As far as Workshop goes, I feel that it needs to be restricted because 1 copy in addition to Ancient Tomb (as another example) is sufficient to compair to the same odds of said opponent drawing a Mox Sapphire for acceleration.  Yes, that 1 mana does make a big difference, but in the past there were only so many playable cards in that cast cost range.  But, with MIR block in the playing field, we see a lot more that can be done with 3 mana, regardless of it being restricted to Artifacts.  This is the reason, even if more recent, that I would presume to judge Workshop as being very restrictable.  Though, I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't quite jive with my logic of never removing a restricted card since this is a recent event in the format...

However, in order to clarify my viewpoint, I would say that once a card is placed on the restricted list then it is done so because it has demonstrated the ability to be abused to a predetermined level.  The way I see it, if this can happen once, then it can happen again, so why take that chance?  The aforementioned Recall that was removed from the restricted list may be far from broken in the current metagame, but how do we know there won't be a card printed down the road that will make it simply ridiculous?  Bear in mind, this is just an example, but the point is...  If that were to occur then the metagame would suffer, and playing environments would be disrupted until it could then be returned to the restricted list.  I'd like to think of keeping cards on the list that make it once as a form of 'preventive medicine'.

Considering it takes about 6 months or so for a card to make a restricted list, in 'most' cases, then what we have here is a small form of safety control, in a manner of speaking.  Sure Recall might not need to be restricted right now, but then again it's just one more card on an already long list, and is it really hurting anything by being on it?  There are no decks that are suddenly better because it's no longer restricted.  Another prime example of this would be Berserk, in that it didn't really need to come off the list, since people still aren't using more then 1 copy anyway, for the most part.  So removing it helped nothing, but keeping it in place prevents other cards that may be printed from breaking it.

[Razvan]

Before I address your points, let me just try an alternate route. Workshop decks generally have no counterspells and no spot removal, other than the Wastelands/Stripmine. IF you do add those 2  parts, you will make them significantly weaker, since then the Workshops become a liability. So this major weakness might be what's keeping the Workshop a 4-of.

You make some very good points, but I would then argue that while Mono-Blue (for example) is still around, it isn't nearly as powerful as it once was. When we look back at the decks during that time, why they won, and what they used to win, we can see how they broke FoF in half. The funny this is, if we unresticted FoF today those decks would not only pop back up, but they would be just as good as they were before, and perhaps even stronger. The incredible card advantage you gained from running 4x FoF was intense, and nothing else can compare to it today. In Mono-Blue, where redundancy was they key, those 4 FoFs would cut through a full 1/3 of your deck; there is no other draw engine that comes close even now a couple of years later.

This is all probably true. On the flip-side, I don't really see mono-blue anywhere anymore. Maybe someone should put 4 FoF's, and test againsts everything. If the results are a win% of 55-65%, then there's no reason they should be restricted. If it's 80-90%, then maybe they should.

As far as Workshop goes, I feel that it needs to be restricted because 1 copy in addition to Ancient Tomb (as another example) is sufficient to compair to the same odds of said opponent drawing a Mox Sapphire for acceleration. Yes, that 1 mana does make a big difference, but in the past there were only so many playable cards in that cast cost range. But, with MIR block in the playing field, we see a lot more that can be done with 3 mana, regardless of it being restricted to Artifacts. This is the reason, even if more recent, that I would presume to judge Workshop as being very restrictable. Though, I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't quite jive with my logic of never removing a restricted card since this is a recent event in the format...

Well, again, see my first paragraph of this post. In Mirrodin, only the Trinisphere warrants inclusion, and it's not exactly key. I still haven't put mine in Stax (space reasons).

I still think that a card should be restricted only if it makes decks unstoppable, such as how GAT and FoF blue were a while ago (I hear). I am biased on Workshops, so my opinion is not the best, but I, for some reason, always go 2-2 or 3-3, or the occasional 3-2 when playing Stax. So I am not sure they are over-powered. But who knows?

[mogote]

I would say that once a card is placed on the restricted list then it is done so because it has demonstrated the ability to be abused to a predetermined level.  The way I see it, if this can happen once, then it can happen again, so why take that chance?  The aforementioned Recall that was removed from the restricted list may be far from broken in the current metagame, but how do we know there won't be a card printed down the road that will make it simply ridiculous?

[...] Sure Recall might not need to be restricted right now, but then again it's just one more card on an already long list, and is it really hurting anything by being on it?  There are no decks that are suddenly better because it's no longer restricted.  Another prime example of this would be Berserk, in that it didn't really need to come off the list, since people still aren't using more then 1 copy anyway, for the most part.  So removing it helped nothing, but keeping it in place prevents other cards that may be printed from breaking it.

Surely a card taken off the restricted list might be in need of restriction again in a distant future but why should it stay there if it could safely be removed now? Using that logic you could as well preemptively restrict cards that look like they might become a problem in the future.

And just because some cards are normally used as one-ofs (like Berserk) doesn't mean that they should have stayed restricted because of this matter. It seems to be more of a sign that a card like that isn't worthy of restriction anyway.

My guess is that some cards only had to be restricted due to a cardpool different from nowadays' cardpool (enabling different decks) as well as an underdevelopped/ underresearched state of the game of Magic.

[Nameless]

I would say that once a card is placed on the restricted list then it is done so because it has demonstrated the ability to be abused to a predetermined level.  The way I see it, if this can happen once, then it can happen again, so why take that chance?  The aforementioned Recall that was removed from the restricted list may be far from broken in the current metagame, but how do we know there won't be a card printed down the road that will make it simply ridiculous?

[...] Sure Recall might not need to be restricted right now, but then again it's just one more card on an already long list, and is it really hurting anything by being on it?  There are no decks that are suddenly better because it's no longer restricted.  Another prime example of this would be Berserk, in that it didn't really need to come off the list, since people still aren't using more then 1 copy anyway, for the most part.  So removing it helped nothing, but keeping it in place prevents other cards that may be printed from breaking it.

Surely a card taken off the restricted list might be in need of restriction again in a distant future but why should it stay there if it could safely be removed now? Using that logic you could as well preemptively restrict cards that look like they might become a problem in the future.

And just because some cards are normally used as one-ofs (like Berserk) doesn't mean that they should have stayed restricted because of this matter. It seems to be more of a sign that a card like that isn't worthy of restriction anyway.

My guess is that some cards only had to be restricted due to a cardpool different from nowadays' cardpool (enabling different decks) as well as an underdevelopped/ underresearched state of the game of Magic.

Well, really my response to this is just that a card that warranted enough power to be placed on the restricted list to begin with certainly seems like a very good candidate to be broken again with the release of future sets, and thus would help to maintain the a certain level of control by not allowing this to happen.

I think we have the same idea on the example of Berserk, in as far as how much it is actually being used lately, but I'm just wondering why it had to be unrestricted.  I mean it certainly had little difference wether it was on the list or not at this point, so why run the risk of it being broken in the future and having to be stuck back on, yet wreaking possible havok in the months it takes between list updates?

I think Mind's Desire is a perfect example of this, in many ways...  They knew the card would be broken as a 4x in Vintage, so they added it to the restricted list before it was even legal.  The problem though was that there were a few months there where the card could and was abused very badly just prior to said restriction.

So then, could these types of situations not be prevented by leaving cards that are 'pontentially' broken on the restricted list?

[Razvan]

Alright, now Steve is asking whether Thirst for Knowledge should be restricted (on SCG.com). This is a very good question, and I must admit that I am a bit surprised.

The card is obviously strong. Drawing 3 cards at an instant speed (even for 3 mana) is good, and discarding an uncastable card seems a good drawback. But what if the drawback can be made into a strength? Aka discarding something that can be re-animated into play via Welder?

Obviously this can primarily be abused in a Workshop deck, although I guess you could discard a random Mox in any other deck, but obviously it wouldn't be as strong.

Anyhow, while obviously Steve doesn't belong to the group, there's a lot of people immediately crying for the restriction of any good new card that comes along. We (I) saw it with Trinisphere, we (I) saw it with Mindslaver, hell, even Platinum Angel, and so on and so forth all the way to Alpha.

Is it just a knee-jerk reaction, or is there something more? Does WotC need to print a good card in every set for every Type 1 deck, just so the peons don't whine about it?

Anyhow, what do you think about Thirst for Knowledge? Or even if there's any reason to be scared that it might be restricted.

[Kowal]

I actually brought it up with Steve at Stok's tournament.  Some random guy mentioned restricting workshop, and I pointed out that Control Slavery would simply take all the slots Workshop Slavery had been taking in the metagame.  People want cards restricted to kill dominant decktypes, and while I feel that slavery is by no means the best choice of deck, it certainly is the most common.  The only way to make it not quite so common (and not so broken in some peoples' eyes) is to take away Thirst for Knowledge.

My verdict - Definately not.  Maybe later, if Slaver is still being found in these numbers.

[FORCE-OF-WILL]

Much like Wood Elemental

d00d- you stole my tech......damn you.....

[jpmeyer]

Not right now, but if 5th Dawn brings the straw that breaks the camel's back it looks like Thirst is probably the right call.

[Razvan]

Not right now, but if 5th Dawn brings the straw that breaks the camel's back it looks like Thirst is probably the right call.

When is that coming out, anyhow?

My God, I can't even imagine what craziness they come out with next. However, I do really think they should wait until the next block, see if there's no goodies for other decks.

As I said, it's hard to balance everything with every set. This was the artifact set (after AQ, I guess). Maybe let's wait for the "blue" set, Torment-like.

[Moridar]

I think we'd see a heavy White set before a heavy blue set.

Wayne

[Razvan]

Hey Wayne,
It would be interesting. Too bad that out of the "black" set, it was Blue and Green that got the most out of it. Meh.
Anyhow, how was Listowel? Spare no detail. I need info fast .
-Razvan

[Moridar]

Finished 2nd in open play and then got eliminated in top 16.  Parfait knocked me out.  He took it to the finals and split the prize for cash.

Wayne

[Matt]

However, in order to clarify my viewpoint, I would say that once a card is placed on the restricted list then it is done so because it has demonstrated the ability to be abused to a predetermined level. The way I see it, if this can happen once, then it can happen again, so why take that chance?
...
The aforementioned Recall that was removed from the restricted list may be far from broken in the current metagame, but how do we know there won't be a card printed down the road that will make it simply ridiculous?

I think the counter to this is: was Recall restricted for power reasons? I don't know, but I have some memory (don't know where from) that it was thought at the time that any card that let you re-use restricted cards was itself restrictable, regardless of power level. There was much speculation that Soldevi Digger was going to be restricted, way back in 1996, and probably the same discussion was had about Gaea's Blessing a year later.