4cControl with Tinker

[Zherbus]

//NAME: 4ColorControl
// Mana
4 Flooded Strand
3 City of Brass
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald / Mana Crypt
// Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
// Search/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
// Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying
// Broken
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Balance
1 Crucible of Worlds
// Removal
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice
// D00ds
1 Karn, Silver Golem (Or a Monkey)
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 Exalted Angel
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Flametogue Kavu
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin  
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Gush

1 Basic Island - When I initially added this, fetchlands and the basic island made B2B a less prevelant threat. It also helps with Crucible wars. I expect Mono-U to start showing up. It's ridiculously redundant and seemingly simple enough that 'I can't afford most duals and chase rares, but I can play with proxies' type people will like this.

I chose to try Karn out since he not only works well with Tinker, but he can win alot faster than Shaman and can block a 7/x critter if need be. I really loved this guy when I tested him, though I really missed being able to cast Shaman turn 1 and stop alot of the craziness in the format. I'm still on the fence with this card slot.

I went with Colossus (originally an Platinum Angel) to have something where I can just go Tinker-Win. Colossus is alot more resiliant than Angel is just as long as you keep Welders in check.

I also chose Mox Emerald over Mana Crypt just because between 3 Cities, 3 Scrying, and 4 fetchlands, I felt that I took enough pain and the one colorless was often not used to the fullest as it would be in other decks. Keep in mind that with 3 Cities and 1 Emerald, you can near comfortably run Regrowth with only minimal penalty (that is, drawing it without green access), though I personally don't see it as being worth it.

Tinker was often the wrong card to cast against the harder matchups in the format, especially Control Slaver. It's really because of this matchup, that I'm weary about flaunting my Tink-thang.

It did a number on 7/10, since you have good removal, more Cities for quicker Titan recovery, and huge blockers like Colossus and Karn. I did about the same against Fish as before.

Against Workshop aggro (something that I've yet to be dazzled by) you really lost to going second against a turn 1 Trinisphere or CoW and having no FoW each game. It's very formulaic in that if you were going second, you needed a FoW or be lucky that they wouldn't have the acceleration OR the 3-mana-bombs. Everything else was mostly irrelevant.

Overall, I was only somewhat happy with this build. I had it ready before Gencon (slighty different) but was unable to attend. I've heard of others doing similiar things with 4cC, but I really don't know what else has been done that I haven't tried outside of Isochron Scepter... which I stand by my opinion of that card being trash.

[rvs]

If you run Tinker, PLEASE run Mirari.

That's all I have to say about the matter.

[Zherbus]

As awesome as that or Mind's Eye would be to resolve, we have to take a few factors into account:

1) We only get 1 Tinker, so building a deck with random 1-of artifacts distracts from how 4cControl runs in the first place.

2) The reason we'd Tinker for Colossus or CoW and not Mind's Eye or Mirari is because, and this is just how I see it, when you're in the position of resolving a Tinker it usually means your opponent has been 'outdone' somehow (ran him low on cards in hand, won a counter war, etc). If your opponent is 'outdone', why give him time to crawl back into the game, when you can Tinker out something that'll either seal your win or just win?

3) I think even if Mirari came out quickly, it's likely too mana-intensive for the early-mid game.

[rozetta]

I have to say that this build really catches my attention. I was trying out Tinker in Keeper a while ago but couldn't really settle on a build I liked. I think the key problem I had was that I had also removed the angel/scrying engine which ended up making the deck a bit weak. Here, you managed to keep those positive aspects of the more recent builds in addition to the brokenness of Tinker.

Replacing Mystical Tutor with Tinker seems to be a good plan considering you still have access to Cunning Wish -> Vampiric Tutor and your blue card count stays the same.

The extra mana source can't be bad either.

Did you try Memnarch in the Karn or Colossus spots? I suspect it might be a little mana intensive. Another possibility might be Mirari (probably too slow) or Mindslaver (this might be a little conditional, although it wasn't too bad when I tried it, even without a way to recur it).

I've always had a soft spot for Regrowth, but I can see why you left it out. During the time Regrowth was good, Keeper's plan was more of a "fetch and recur ancestral quickly" thing and now with only one maindeck tutor and much more cheap card-draw, that whole plan has been invalidated.

[Zherbus]

A lot of people suggested Memnarch to me, but I didn't really buy into it. Truthfully, I didn't test him either but that's because I thought he was a ton worse than Colossus for his winning purpose and worse than Karn for his Crucible-aiding, mox-munching purposes.

[GotRealLucky]

I like the idea of adding Tinker but do you really have to play with the Colossus? I think I would rather play with the Platinum Angel or only the Karn. Sure, it's less powerfull, but you can actually cast those cards quite easily. I think of Tinker mainly as a second Crucible, any other non-mana artifact should be very powerfull on its own. In a deck like this I don't want to see too many dead draws. You do have Brainstorm but that's not always going to work.

I think you could also add a Damping Matrix to the SB (or maindeck depending on your metagame) since it helps against Welders and Charbelchers and other random stuff.

[Zherbus]

I originally had a creature breakdown of:

1 Platinum Angel
1 Karn
2 Angels

Then I realized that Colossus is being run everywhere else with Tinker because it ends the game in two turns and allows 4cC to do something it hasn't been able to do in a long time: combo out aggro. Of course, this really doesn't have much weight against good decks - which is why I'm not completely satisfied with this build.

I thought along the same exact lines as you did actually re: Tinker being Damping Matrix #2. In fact, from an older 4cC build I cut a CoW for Tinker. Also, I did have a Damping Matrix in the board for the same reason you mentioned. Was there a problem with it? Only that if I resolved Tinker, I usually went for something else and just won. It's a decent SB choice, regardless.

[GotRealLucky]

I think that Colossus is an ok secondary wincondition in decks like TPS but in a deck like 4cc I don't like it that much. Even in a deck like TPS it's played in the sideboard most of the time. I think 4cc shouldn't run it, not even in the sideboard. I do like the Karn. In order to make as few possible changes to the basic 4cc skeleton just playing with a Crucible and a Karn should be enough to justify the inclusion of Tinker. I'll probably replace the Colossus with a Mystical (I really like that card and I think it becomes better with the Tinker) and try it out if I can find the time.

You're probably right on the Matrix, it's not going to get Tinkered for most of the time. Good job on the deck btw

[Eastman]

Well, I've probably been doing this longer than anyone, so my thoughts:

1. You really don't need the karn or other secondary. You don't want to get carried away with abusing thetinker. Man is enough. The fact that it is mostly dead is just something you have to deal with when it isn't stealing matches for you. You can always get crucible anyway. I agree with one maindeck for crucible.

2. When I first used tinker I put mana crypt in as the additional artifact, but it really is just too dangerous. I went with Emerald at Gencon and it worked fine. The crypt is a little more broken but a little more dangerous. The Emerald is more consistent. The only time I felt safe running crypt was when I had two maindeck gorilla shamans.


3. this is the MOST IMPORTANT thing I have to say about 4cc right now. Fire/Ice is really much too strong to only be a one-of. The reason I ran two scepters at Gencon was because I already had 3 fire/ice maindeck. Against just about everything fire/ice is a great card. A 1 sword/2 Fire/Ice configuration is an appropriate immediate change to the list you posted.

On the issue of the scepters, which I saw you mentioned steve, I would only mention that they are really quite good in the mirror, and that's why I decided to run them at Gencon. They are also great to have around against Hulk, GAT, or Mono-Blue (ask Joe Bushman about that one, heh). Scepter is really only playable when you've already got a heavy fire/ice compliment, which is something you wanted at Gencon (see: 24 welders in top 8) and will probably want for the foreseeable future.

I should also mention that I ran the tinker/collosus in addition to 2 Angels, and that worked very well.

[KSesler]

Zherbus:
I tried out the 4cc with Tinker several months ago, and tested it for a few weeks.
I agree with the comments that most of the suggested cards other than the Darksteel and the Tinker are just clutter.

I did not have consistent results with this deck, so dropped the idea after awhile.
Perhaps you will do better.

Keith

[Methuselahn]

This list is interesting Zherbus.  Old style Keeper is officially dead if this is the modern equivalent.

I would have to argue for 1 Matrix SB.  With Control Slaver being pop right now and you running Metal Elvis, you really want to Tinkar the Matrix.  This forces them into the man-plan game.  Seeing as how they are not likely to side in extra artifact hate against you game 2, you would have them with Tinker for Matrix.  Your Dudes would out-man them every time.  This is what I did with Show and Tell.dec all the time.  It ran one Matrix MD for this reason- to stop Welder and Slaver.

SB: 3 Flametogue Kavu

If big Titans and Colossusess rule the land with awesome utility dorks like Goblin Welder, is Control Magic a viable alternative yet?

[Zherbus]

Real Quick:

@Eastman: I agree on Emerald, but I thought mentioning Crypt might be useful to someone.

I already touched on Karn. It's better against things like 7/10, but worse against Control Slaver.

Scepter is pretty poor in the mirror imho, I've used it and had it used on me plenty in its height of popularity, but never saw it either break the mirror or be effective enough against most other decks. I use this as a blanket statement, but I really don't know how effective it is in your top secret 4cC build. If it's all working for you, then you either did something I couldn't with it or you're not as happy with it as you let on. ;P

I did not have consistent results with this deck, so dropped the idea after awhile.
Perhaps you will do better.

Yeah, I stopped running this version as I mentioned/hinted at above. I'm more or less posting this for people to see and maybe improve upon since I gave it up. My current version is really a mess and sort of on the sideburner  (I'm working on testing/tweaking Toads deck for Waterbury).

If big Titans and Colossusess rule the land with awesome utility dorks like Goblin Welder, is Control Magic a viable alternative yet?

It always has been.

[Dozer]

Team CAB has been throwing the idea around as well, and I have been testing a very similar list myself which I took to Berlin last Friday (you can check my list out here, scroll down to Aug. 27th, 3rd place list). I finished third on tiebreakers, but I was very content with the list and Tinker in particular.

The differences to Zherbus' list are these: I run a 5th Fetchland in place of the 3rd City and a Tundra in place of the Island, which might or might not be necessary. Also, I have one Cunning Wish less and one more Crucible instead (none in the SB) and of course I am a Disciple of Mana Crypt which I keep Tinkering away.
I have missed Mind Twist, but there is no other card to cut except for maybe Crucible #2 which you should only do if you run SB Crucibles. Other than that, I really liked Tinker/Colossus. I have not run into Workshops or Welders due to Berlin being a budget metagame (that's why I wrote no report), so I can't say if Tinker is better there, but I suppose it is as long as you can keep Welders off the table.

The very best thing I can say about Tinker/Colossus is that it dramatically increased my "win-now"-percentage. This had two advantages. Opponents became very scared of Tinker, and the rounds did not drag as long as they used to. I like to compare the Tinker/Colossus duo to Power Artifact/Grim Monolith - it works in a very similar way. Both provide a dead card when drawn under a certain condition - you did not want to draw Power Artifact without a Monolith in play, and you will never want to draw a Colossus unless you have 13 mana, Drain and FoW-backup in the lategame. (I actually came close to hardcasting Colossus once.) Both combos have one part that is useful by itself - you can always Tinker for Crucible, as my teammate and first round opponent Maxim Barkmann did (to win the only match I lost).

Also, both combos have their disadvantages. PA/Grim is useless without another card, a win condition. Colossus is useless on its own, and once the Tinker is spent (e.g. as FoW-fodder), you have to deal with it. Because it is only a two-card combo, Tin/Co has the advantage here. The function they fulfill is very similar: Get to a certain game state and cast one card for the win. In PA/Grim's case, that meant having Monolith and a win condition, in Tinker's case it means having an artifact in play. The possibility of this happening has positive implications that are twofold:

• 4cControl has another backdoor out of every situation. Unless you are totally locked out, Tinker for Colossus (or Platinum Angel, see below) will get you out of most conundrums. This is equal to sacrificing consistency for brokenness. To be precise, this means "going broken with more consistency" at the expense of superfluous or situational stabilizers (cards that only improve consistency; 3rd Angel, Mind Twist).
• I just mentioned it: More brokenness. 4cC is an inherently sloooow deck. Having the speed kill available enlarges your options by a huge margin, giving you not only the possible choice between "control" and "aggro-control" but adding the "combo kill" to the mix.
[/list:u]
Now, what other options are open for Tinker? They are few. Eastman is right on when he advises to go for fat. In a deck like 4cC, Tinker is not a subtle tool. It is a brute weapon, because it is about the fastest win that you can achieve. Going for a support card like Memory Jar will not cut it, since you still have the rest of the deck to win the resource war. Tinker MUST be a win condition, because otherwise you have wasted an enourmous advantage. The deck is built to deal with threats but poses not many itself. Tinker changes that. When firing it away for something subtle like Memory Jar or Memnarch, you have to ask yourself: Would a Colossus not have won this game faster? Don't leave your opponent time to breathe when you Tinker! Don't go fancy, just kill him!

But, and there's always a "but", sometimes you need to cast Tinker out of a desperate situation. Those situations mostly arise when facing decks that can overrun you in the blink of an eye. Goblins (Food Chain or not) sometimes does this, as do most Combo decks. Against these, Platinum Angel is often a better choice than Colossus since it cannot be beaten by a horde of little red men and prevents you being fried out by a Tendrils. In certain matchups, boarding a Platinum Angel instead of the Colossus does make sense. An illustrating example:
Maxim was playing 4cControl w/ Tinker + Plat Angel in Berlin, I was playing Colossus. In one round, he was going into the extra turns against a control deck and drew his Tinker. His Platinum Angel got him a draw, the Colossus would have gotten him a win. I played against Goblins, which had me at 3, and I drew Tinker. Colossus did not save me, but Platinum Angel would have.

That being said, I won the next two games versus Goblins by Tinkering for Colossus. All in all, I much prefer Colossus over Platinum Angel, because it is a two-turn clock and quite unblockable. With enough fliers, you can chump Platinum Angel for a long time. Not so with Colossus. Barring Phyrexian Dreadnought, Colossus will win every combat. Plus, you need not worry about artifact destruction.

In my opinion, the advantages heavily outweigh the disadvantages of Tinker/Colossus as long as you don't try something fancy. Keep in mind that the rest of your deck is capable of handling any resource war, and that you'd better end the game now if you can instead of fiddling around. Tinker is a broken win condition. I like it a lot, and so far it has not let me down, neither in testing nor in tournament play. I am going to take it to a small 7-proxy tournament today and add more experience later. As yet, I like the Tin/Co-version a lot.

Then I realized that Colossus is being run everywhere else with Tinker because it ends the game in two turns and allows 4cC to do something it hasn't been able to do in a long time: combo out aggro. Of course, this really doesn't have much weight against good decks - which is why I'm not completely satisfied with this build.

Being able to end the game in two turns is bad against good decks? I disagree. Keep in mind that you can combo out control as well. The risk that you do not resolve the Tinker will always be there. I much rather have a surprise win up my sleeve that my opponent has to fight against than having to wait for my opponent to do something *I* have to fight against. Ending the game in two turns is good against every deck, I'd say. The only real trouble are Welders, and those you should be able to handle, especially since you can always board out the combo. I don't see that as a reason not to include it.

Dozer

[Zherbus]

Being able to end the game in two turns is bad against good decks? I disagree. Keep in mind that you can combo out control as well. The risk that you do not resolve the Tinker will always be there. I much rather have a surprise win up my sleeve that my opponent has to fight against than having to wait for my opponent to do something *I* have to fight against. Ending the game in two turns is good against every deck, I'd say. The only real trouble are Welders, and those you should be able to handle, especially since you can always board out the combo. I don't see that as a reason not to include it.

Between getting it countered (everything), Tinker Duressed (Tog, GaT, Control Slaver), Colossus Welded (Control Slaver, Workshop Aggro, Stax), and plowed (4cC) I'm not comfortable going 3 mana on my mainphase, sacrificing a Mox for something that isn't really all that tough to remove.

I started working on this in early August for Gencon. I'm not happy with this build because of my results against Control Slaver and Stax for the most part. It's not that I 'just lose' to them, but whenever the key cards of this build appeared I was more or less disappointed. It's not as if 1-2 cards are going to change the matchup that dramatically, but if I'm going to face those decks from start to finish like I expect to, I think minimizing 'ah shit, I drew Tinker' draws is more my style.

[Tristal]

I have to wonder if the whole Tinker idea is really very adaptable to the 4cC mentality.  

Zherbus, you say yourself, the only time Tinker usually resolves is when your opponent has been 'outdone'.  In other words, it resolves when you're winning the game.  If you're already winning, doesn't just about anything work here?  Tinker is a 'win more' card in nearly every scenario.

Yes, Colossus means your opponent pretty much dies in two turns.  But, if that's the case, a few more turns with an Exalted Angel really isn't hurting anything, and there are even cases where Angel is downright better.  (say, against an opposing combat force that can counterattack you for just over lethal damage)

Obligatory to point out, I can't imagine the agony of DRAWING the damn Colossus in the opening hand.  Say what you will about Mana Drain, but the thing is just too expensive for my tastes.  I am, of course, aware of Brainstorm/Fetch, but I think using that as an all-encompassing excuse is insufficient and misses the point.  Exalted Angel in the opening hand isn't nearly as much of a backbreaker.

Granted, all of this assumes you'd get Colossus 99% of the time.  There are two other great targets to find in your list - Karn, and Crucible of Worlds.  My fear is that there is really no appropriate time to ever find these unless you do have Colossus in your hand.  (The one time I can see getting Karn is if there's an active Welder on the other side with only 0cc artifacts to back him up, and lots more mana on your side.)

Even still unmentioned is what I consider the most fundamental problem.  What if Tinker gets countered?  Now you're looking at a 2-for-1 (at best) and the near inability to play one of your win conditions.  The real trouble is how easy this spell is to deal with, one way or the other - you've listed the problems yourself, so I won't repeat them.  Exalted Angel just isn't as hard to deal with.

4cC has never been a 'win now' kind of deck.  I don't think adding Darksteel Colossus will help give this deck better matchups.  Tinker/Colossus is too easy to deal with, and Exalted Angel has many fewer answers.

[Zherbus]

I have to wonder if the whole Tinker idea is really very adaptable to the 4cC mentality.

Zherbus, you say yourself, the only time Tinker usually resolves is when your opponent has been 'outdone'. In other words, it resolves when you're winning the game. If you're already winning, doesn't just about anything work here? Tinker is a 'win more' card in nearly every scenario.

I'm not happy with this build...

...which is why I'm not completely satisfied with this build.

Tinker was often the wrong card to cast against the harder matchups in the format, especially Control Slaver. It's really because of this matchup, that I'm weary about flaunting my Tink-thang.
 

Am I missing something here, or did you not understand me when I implied that I wasn't happy with this build?

[Tristal]

I just wanted to back you up on it, really.  It wasn't so much a reply to you as a reply to the idea.

[Zherbus]

Oh, ok. I thought you were preaching to the choir. I really do think its an idea with merit, it's just that I chose not to run with it.

[Tristal]

At the old shop I used to play T1 weekly at, there was one player who consistently played 4cC (Well, back then it could still be 5cC) but always played different kill mechanisms; some weeks it was Morphling, others Goblin Trenches, even Show and Tell/Hypnox (which was funny if only because it didn't work) - one week he did in fact try Tinker, although it got Platinum Angel, not Colossus (Mirrodin had just come out.)  For my 4cC deck it was just as easy to remove as a Colossus would be.*

I think the Tinker is really deceptive.  It's hard to grasp, but with 4cC (or Hulk to an even greater degree), you do not actually win when you resolve your win condition.  You win when you've built your hand up so much that there is nothing your opponent can do to win the game.  While the speed is certainly a factor in using Exalted Angel over Morphling, Tinker's only real asset is the speed it provides, at a hefty cost of one Mox, and being REBable.

(As an aside, the Hulk example is even better - by the time a Psychatog has hit the board, their hand is so loaded with answers that there is never anything you can do about the Tog.  That's why siding out Swords to Plowshares can actually be a smart move - they win once they've cast their AK for 4, not when they Berserk the Tog.)

The difference here is that with an early Angel hand, it's okay if the Angel happens to die an early death - you've got backups later on and you haven't sacrificed much, if any, board position.  (Your tapping out won't matter if all they do with their turn is kill the Angel.)  Tinker makes you sacrifice no matter what - so even if it gets Forced it's still just 2 for 2, and worse yet, you've lost a mana source, which any control player knows is key in the early turns.  Getting Tinker REBed after sideboard is about the worst thing possible for 4cC.

*I should probably point out that either are as easy to remove as an Exalted Angel would be in the 4cC mirror.

[rozetta]

Actually, there is a way to run both Memnarch and Mirari as decent Tinker targets which involves running Mirari's Wake in the deck, but I don't know how viable it would be. CF toyed around with that some time ago, but in a more casual build. With the current manabase allowing small splashes of green, it could be possible to engineer this, but I couldn't come up with any real ideas for a list yet or any idea as to it's viability.

[LoA]

A non-Tinker question: How has the manabase worked for you?  Squeezing in an Island looks nice but have you had difficulty finding the double colors you need?  Also, has going up to 27 made a significant difference other than adding a Tinker target in the Emerald?

[rvs]

Right now, speed is more important than anything else in Keeper. You wanna be able to cast 3-mana bombs on turn 2, like Crucible, or get an answer like Wish. I'd say the Emerald is a must.
There's also another good reason, but that is build-dependant I guess, and doesn't seem relevent in Zherbus' build. (No, I'm not really interested in revealing what it is).