[Deck] UBW Control (4cC minus Red)

[Covetous]

The current level of nonbasic hate has made it very difficult to be successful with 4cC, despite the many strengths it otherwise possesses (such as answers for everything).  I have been brainstorming about whether or not 4cC can cut red and still retain its level of power.  The core of the deck is the blue countermagic plus the skeletal scrying/exalted angel draw engine and kill condition (i.e. UBW).  There are several reasons to run red in this deck, yet it forces you to have a terrible manabase with roughly zero basic lands.  Gorilla Shaman, Fire/Ice, REB, Rack & Ruin and Flametongue Kavu are all powerful red cards which make 4cC powerful.  However, equivalent U, B or W cards can be found, allowing a respectable product to emerge without red.
My initial effort at 4cC minus red is here:

//Ways to kill your opponent:
3 Exalted Angel
1 Decree of Justice
//Ways to not lose:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Annul or Cunning Wish + something useful
//Ways to draw cards:
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
//Ways to kill things:
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
2 Seal of Cleansing or Cunning Wish
//Ways to do other stuff:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Walk
//Ways to play spells:
1 Sol Ring or Off-Color Mox
1 Black Lotus
3 On-Color Moxen
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Library of Alexandria
+1 Flooded Strand or Off-Color Mox

//Ways to win games 2 & 3:
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Disenchant
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Energy Flux
3 Coffin Purge or Old Man of the Sea
4 Duress or 3 + Mind Twist

This is by no means a finished product.  I just wanted to start a discussion about this deck to see if it can be made to succeed in the current metagame.  This build basically substitutes STP for Fire/Ice, Annul for Mox Monkey, Seal of Cleansing for Cunning Wish, Energy Flux for Rack and Ruin and Duress for REB.  These may not all be perfect substitutions, but most of them serve the same purpose as their red counterparts.

Since I expect Oath to make a strong metagame showing, there are 4 MD cards that are specifically tailored for beating Oath (Annul & Seal).  I decided not to run Cunning Wish because Duress, Seal, Flux and EE are not instant.  Mind Twist and Scrying #4 could certainly have a place, but I decided on MD Annul & Seal instead.  Annul + Seal MD might be overkill, and I am certainly open to suggestions.  

Has anyone else been working on this type of deck, or does anyone have any suggestions in general?

Edit:  Made a few decklist changes as suggested.

[Apollyon]

Why are you running 3 Coffin Purges side? Against what matchups would you use them, and are those matchups weak enough to justify running 3 Purges side over something that might fare better?

Also, why no Library of Alexandria? That is one card noted for being able to win control mirrors.

[Sammy]

I think why Fire/Ice was so good was because it can hit 2 Welders, or 2 fish at the same time. StP gets rid of only one, so a better substitution may be found in Echoing Decay, it may not hit 2 different Fish but it defintly hits 2 Welders which is a good thing. It also handles multiple 2 toughness cards found in random aggro decks a lot better.

Maybe cut an Annul and a Seal in the MB for 2 Echoing decay and then cut 1 Coffin Purge 1 Duress for the Annul and Seal.

[ReAnimator]

@ Sammy Rather than echoing decay, you could try Holy light, it is probably better as a wish target and probably never MD but it kills 2 welders and 2 fish quite well.  Any way why would you ever run echoing decay MD??? it is dead in so many matchups, where as fire/ice is never dead even against combo you can ice things to slow them down and vs 3sphere you can shut it off for a turn, Fire ice is never ever dead thats why it made the MD.  I would never run echoing decay when i could run STP It is so unlikely you will ever get 2 for 1 off a decay. Not all cards have a direct replacement and Fire/ice is certainly one of them the closest thing i can think of is Funeral charm but that is really reaching.
Dust to dust is a possible replacement for R&R since Energy Flux is REBable and kills all your own toys, the RFG is a nice bonus as well.
Is annul really better than Mana Leak ? Especialy since your running 5 moxes and have seal of cleansing back up.

[pinoy_tech]

this looks like EBA, which in general is 4cC -Red...anyways, comments on the deck...does your metagame attribute the reason for 2 MD annuls? i really dont see a reason for it in the MD, maybe a few duress in its place? also i think with all the welder decks running around that coffin purge is not that bad in multiples in the side...i can also see echoing decay being played in the side at least, as a wishable target to get rid of multiple welders and fish alike...also, are you having good results w/ a 3 skeletal build? i ran a decklist very similar to this but w/ only 2 skeletal scrying and it worked out fine, though sumtimes i wish i had a scry on occasion, though my SB was a little different as there arent many workshop decks around my area (2 only) i used damping matrix in the place of the energy flux and tormod's crypt over the coffin purge...

[Klep]

Gorilla Shaman, Fire/Ice, REB, Rack & Ruin and Flametongue Kavu are all powerful red cards which make 4cC powerful.  However, equivalent U, B or W cards can be found, allowing a respectable product to emerge without red.

No, no they can't.  Fire/Ice kills more than one thing.  Replacing it with more StPs does not fulfill the same function.  Annul is nowhere near as good as Shaman, which is reusable.  FTK is irreplaceable, and I notice you didn't even try.  Duress, as has been beaten to death, is not a good card for a reactive control deck and hence does not measure up to REB.  Energy Flux can put a crimp in the plans of a Workshop deck, but unless paired with other forms of mana denial or played very early, will just slow them down.  R&R is generally much more devastating.  And lastly, why would you ever consider cutting Cunning Wish?

Basically what you've done is cut the color that gives 4CC all of it's best utility cards and replaced them with either bad imitations or not at all.  There's a reason that EBA was determined to be so much worse than 4CC in the first place, and having a stabler manabase is not likely going to be enough to make up the difference.

@pinoy_tech: AT LEAST 3 Scryings are required.  If you aren't running at least 3 you don't understand how 4CC works.

[Stupid_Newb]

No, no they can't.  Fire/Ice kills more than one thing.

While I do agree that Fire/Ice is the best available creature kill card, I'm not sure exactly how much better it is than StP. From a literal standpoint, Fire/Ice is clearly the more versatile card, but if you're looking at metagames, StP does so much more in the format, considering the current uprise of Oath.

And yes it's also true that Fire/Ice is better against Welder and Fish, but Fish has been dying off lately, and is no longer a major concern in my mind. So now if you're looking for just against Welder (and Welder decks), the only way that Fire/Ice is going to do more than StP is in the case of two early Welders. If there's only one, it's easily picked up by StP, and that's not to mention StP's ability against the fatties of Welder decks.

But lastly, you must look at the mana cost of the two cards, and how thinking that not playing Red may be a bad choice just because of the Fire/Ice issue (I definately think there's more to not playing Red than just Fire/Ice). While paying 1R for an instant is definately respectable, paying a single W is definately more clear of an advantage than anything that StP has over Fire/Ice. By cutting Red, he simplifies his manabase a whole bunch, and now allows himself much more versatility.

As for other issues of the deck, Red is not a color you can cut. You are losing:

Rack and Ruin, Fire/Ice, Flametongue Kavu, REB, and Gorilla Shaman.

Of the above cards, I think loing Gorilla Shaman is going to hurt more than anything. The Mox Monkey is still one of the best (if not THE best) anti-Moxen card out there. A re-usable, 1 mana to eat a Mox creature is definately a big help to this deck. And that isn't to mention the fact that Skullclamp is now seeing more play than it ever has before (it still isn't being unbelievably good), and using three mana to take out one of the better engines in the format is quite a bargain.

[Covetous]

@LoA -- This was an obscene oversight.  I completely forgot about it when I designed the manabase.  I would probably cut the 2 off color moxen for LoA plus Flooded Strand.  The extra acceleration will be missed, but LoA is a necessity.  Or, cut Sol Ring for LoA straight up.

@Coffin Purge x3 -- This may not be necessary, but was included because I expect Dragon to increase in popularity in response to the threat of Oath.  Purges are also good against Slaver and Titan, but could certainly be replaced with something else.

@ MD Annul & Seal -- These were added as answers to Oath and/or Workshop decks.  They are not necessary for all metagames, and I am considering replacing all of them with 3x Cunning Wish (and thus re-working the SB) plus one other card which could be scrying #4, v. tutor, crucible #2, mind twist or none of the above.

@Echoing Decay -- If I ran a Wish SB, which I am considering, I might consider running a single Decay.  But, I don't think so.  I generally favor cards like Powder Keg or EngEx for removal of multiple small threats, despite their obvious weakness vs. null rod.  The utility of Fire/Ice is hard to replicate although there are several janky options which you could try (none is as good).  I don't think they are necessary, however.  If all else fails, Balance.  If you fear small things, Old Man is your...um...man.  

@ Duress -- It is not a perfect replacement for REB, but it can be useful in the same matchups plus combo as well.  No other color can do what REB does, but Duress is useful in control matchups where REB is usually brought in, and can also nail oath, scrying, will and any number of other offensive spells.

@EBA -- I feel that EBA is a more aggressive deck than this one, running proactive answers like MD duress and meddling mage.  This deck is designed to be more reactive, despite SB duress.  This deck runs like 4cC minus Red, as my post title implied.

@Klep -- Your assessment is entirely correct.  Most of the choices I have made are not even close to perfect, despite being the strongest options I could come up with in these colors.  Cards like Mox Monkey and Flametongue simply have no counterparts in any other color, and are in that way irreplaceable.  However, these cards are not in all 4cC builds and thus may not be necessary for the deck.  

I am not saying that the pure power of this deck is as high as that of 4cC.  I just believe that the current lack of success for 4cC is due to nonbasic hate being prevalent in large amounts.  The point of this deck is to try to fix the problems that 4cC has with its manabase while keeping the gist of the deck.  It may not be a successful attempt, but I wanted to share the idea and get feedback.  I tried to fix the manabase and fill the holes left by the removal of red in the best ways that I could.  

Some other ideas I have been tossing around:
1.  Old Man of the Sea in the SB (as a wanna-be FTK replacement) -- he eats Fish alive and is more castable now due to the more stable manabase.
2.  Cunning Wish instead of MD artifact/enchantment hate (as discussed earlier).  Wish is slower but more versatile, while the other cards can serve as effective ways to stop early game-ending threats such as 3sphere, Oath, etc.  Additionally, Seal and Annul are nice because they cannot be misdirected by Oath.
3.  Tinker-->Colossus.  This may be janky but the Giant can win some games that Ms. Angel cannot (i.e with Akroma or Pristine in play).  Also, this allows use of Karn as a giant Mox Monkey and possibly Duplicant as another FTK wannabe.  I don't think this is the way to go with the deck but it also has some strengths.  I would not choose to cut angels completely--the life-gain is too important.
4.  Engineered E maindeck instead of Seal.  They are both reactive, non-misdirectable answers to cheap artifacts and enchantments, but EE can hit critters, while Seal can smash expensive artifact threats (and is not worthless under null rod)
5.  Damping Matrix -- Without Monkey, this doesn't hurt you at all while being a solution versus many annoying cards including skullclamp, welder, slaver, pentavus, opposing monkeys, madness creatures, etc.  This could be a one-of silver bullet MD plus one in the SB.  Vampiric Tutor could be worked into the MD or SB as well.  For example, -2 Annul +1 Matrix +1 VT.

Thanks for the input.  Please let me know what you think about the changes I mentioned.  My real question is not whether or not you think this deck is viable (only testing will determine that) but rather what changes can be made to improve it from the unsculpted lump of clay (or something else of similar color) that it is now.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that the maindeck seals can certainly be cut for wishes.  The additional versatility and instant speed, as well as pitchability, all make up for the additonal mana required.  You want to run as few "dead," or weak cards in certain matchups, as possible.

With the addition of wishes you would cut weaker cards in the sb for at least 1x scrying, swords to plowshares, disinchant, and maybe more conditional stuff like stifle if you want to or have the space.

Annuls I think are a meta call.  Although they are weak in certain matchups, I can certainly appreciate them against belcher, $T4CKS, oath, landstill, 5/3, etc.  If you face these decks really frequently, go ahead.  At the very least they can counter articfact mana, or even the odd bargain/necro against storm combo.

That said, you can do your best but cutting red certainly removed a large dimension of the deck.  Monkey and R&R hurt the most, but fire/ice is amazing also.  Whether this deck is viable will be shown through testing/results.

[Dozer]

@LoA -- This was an obscene oversight.  I completely forgot about it when I designed the manabase.  I would probably cut the 2 off color moxen for LoA plus Flooded Strand.  The extra acceleration will be missed, but LoA is a necessity. Or, cut Sol Ring for LoA straight up.

I'd say no to this. You need the acceleration, all of it, because your main game plan is Exalted Angel as fast as possible. We know that 4cC is awfully slow - no need to slow it down further, especially since you lose some of the restrictions on the mana base and be slightly more liberal with that space, even while still incorporating basics.
Don't try to make your whole mana base immune to BtB, that is impossible. I'd probably go for 1 Plains, 2 Island as basic lands, because that is what the deck needs to run on - Drain Mana and Decree. Scrying should probably be taken into account as well, so you might replace the single Plains with a Swamp, especially when you decide to run Tinker/DSC (which you should, IMO).
Tinker also gives you acces to the aforementioned Karn, who has proven himself in Bram's build before.

Cards like Mox Monkey and Flametongue simply have no counterparts in any other color, and are in that way irreplaceable.  However, these cards are not in all 4cC builds and thus may not be necessary for the deck.

Then these 4cC-builds are bad builds. 4cC draws on the strength of being able to use whatever color and card does the job at hand best - that is the "4c"-part. What you are omitting here is the "C"-part: Control. It has been hinted at, but look at the cards you are losing and compare them to their substitutes:
All of Shaman, R&R, Fire/Ice and FTK are 2-for-1's. Seal, StP, Duress are not. You lose a lot of card advantage by going without red here, and I don't see how a red-less version of 4cC can in fact make up for it. 1-for-1's are not good enough, and even though StP may be prime removal, it is not going to be enough.
I believe there are two ways out: more Wishes, thus giving you added flexibility, or more silver bullets that can actually handle more than one threat at a time. On the other hand, these bullets are clunky (most notably Moat and Abyss). You already mentioned Engineered Explosives, which are a very effective way of dealing with things.

An Explosives-based 3cC-control deck could maybe work. But I believe it is impossible to keep the gist of 4cC and cut a color.

In fact this reminds me of the old BD days, when Azhrei started working on OSE (Old School Expulsion). For those who don't remember, OSE was essentially an aggro-control deck with Mishra's Factories, U/B/R if I recall correctly, that was made to be faster and more aggressive than the Keeper decks, ditching white and green in the process. I think that a similar thing needs to happen with 4cControl if you want to make it more NBH-resilient. Gaining a slight advantage versus non-basic hate is not worth giving up so many options, the versatility, flexiblity and card advantage that red adds to 4cControl.

Looking for 2-for-1's, Explosives start looking better and better, as long as you can reliably hope not to run into too many Null Rods.

Dozer