SCG writers-who will be premium?

[Kasuras]

Because they made them? Why should the author of a book "own" the list of words that comprise the book? C'mon, anyone could have put those words together.

It's not that simple.. and you know it.

There is a difference in a book and a decklist; books can just about contain every word where a decklist is already limited to about 6000 or so. Removing all the cards that are just not playable; let's say a list of 1000, perhaps 2000. Also; decklists usually have the same cards which limits your choice even more. It is possible that people come up with the same idea, the lists will probably differ like 10 cards.

Now, don't get me wrong; keeping the deck for yourself before a tourney, and even after it, is something I accept. Not something I like or would do myself, but I accept it.

Oh, and books are copyrighted. I don't think you can get copyright on a decklist and thus people can copy them. With articles however, you can get a copyright on them. I guess.

[dicemanx]

Just out of curiosity, what will happen to any thread in a TMD or SCG forum that contains a decklist that is published in a premium SCG article? Clearly this isn't an issue of copyright infringement since decklists cannot be copyrighted, but its more of a question of what the forum rules are about such disclosures on the forums.

[Jacob Orlove]

Just out of curiosity, what will happen to any thread in a TMD or SCG forum that contains a decklist that is published in a premium SCG article? Clearly this isn't an issue of copyright infringement since decklists cannot be copyrighted, but its more of a question of what the forum rules are about such disclosures on the forums.

Like I said in the separate thread on this topic, Z is talking to the SCG people (Pete, Ben, Ted) about this. When we have a definitive answer, we will let everyone know.

[Dr. Sylvan]

For those who inquired: I asked Knut whether my articles would be Premium, and he said he wasn't sure. I might bounce back and forth depending on the article. My best guess is that my stuff won't be premium, though, because of just one thing: how can you make a writer-blurb about someone who plays Magic roughly once a year? :-)

[Anusien]

I'm going to Misdirect target thread.  Technically decklists are intellectual property.  Thanks to the (mostly) internationally recognized Berne convention, you automatically own the copyright to anything you create.

The expression "literary and artistic works" shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.

If maps, plans, architecture plans, photography, topography, etc. are copyrightable, I see no reason why Magic decklists aren't, giving of course appropriate prior claim to Wizards of the Coast.  In fact, a specific decklist has monetary value based on the expected gain from it at a tournament.  Specific allusions could be made to musical compositions without words, which are covered, because they are saleable and also have value when performed.

You definitely can get a copyright on an article, doubly so because they have a clear monetary value (because of Premium membership) associated with them.

[Edit: Forgot to say, but I'd never ever want to bring it into any court of law.  Come on.  Suing over Magic?]

All of which is sort of nebulous to the current discussion.  I would imagine that it would be better for everyone if no one posts premium decklists without at least consulting the author.

[Cross]

Actually if you're quoting a deck list, you just need to give credit to the author and you should be fine. Same deal as writing a paper, you don't need to contact everyone you quote to put what they say in your paper. Also, for those of us who are students, the laws are very different. The status of student allows you to take from almost freely if it's used for educational purpose, from most mediums and not get in trouble.  Technichally you can take something, change it 25% and it's yours.

[Royal Ass.]

"Technichally you can take something, change it 25% and it's yours."

Isn't that what Meandeck does?

Ok, just kidding      

"Also, for those of us who are students, the laws are very different. The status of student allows you to take from almost freely if it's used for educational purpose, from most mediums and not get in trouble."

Actually this is called plagarisim.

Actually if you're quoting a deck list, you just need to give credit to the author and you should be fine.

I do agree with this, however.

I think it is more of a site policy than a legal issue though.  If they strike a deal with star city to not post premium deck lists, they could always just delete the list and ban the user.

[Cross]

Actually this is called plagarisim.

clarification: I'm an art major, and I meant this in terms of artistic pieces. You are correct to say that if you did this when you are writing a research paper/article then it would be plagiarism. But as a student, when you're creating art, you can almost take freely from images, websites, video, etc.

[Godder]

A decklist can no more be the claim of IP rights than a theoretical novelty in a chess opening. The accompanying explanatory article is copyrighted, but the list/opening isn't.

[jpmeyer]

All content on this page (c) 2004 StarCityGames and may not be reproduced whole without consent.

[jazzykat]

Since everyone is so interested in the legal aspects here is one more question.

Just suppose that a decklist was developed on the manadrain or any other forum, or was posted by a non premium article writer and became the interest of the community at large. Does the forum or a particular person have rights to that deck list. Thus requiring those writing about it have to pay a royalty if the decklist is included in their article.

To be honest I don't really care who goes premium or not or what they write. Once you get to a certain level of skill all that you can do is playtest against the different decks and know how to play your deck. If you are very ambitious you can do deck development.

However if deck lists become secret again and stay that way due to players wishes or proprietary ownership then we will go back to the ass backwardness and randomness that was before. I for one enjoy the randomness which will become more prevalent if deck lists are not freely available.

Furthermore the more random a metagame becomes the weaker certain decks become just because they are vulnerable to random hate strategies which may or may not be publicized effectively making the premier deck lists less valuable then they once were.

In conclusion if deck lists were to become proprietary, the best lists may fall prey to the fragmentation of a metagame, and thus reduce the desirability for "the best list".

[Methuselahn]

It seems to me that the the moderators will have to be an elite squad and crackdown on these SCG premium links.  If it's not totally clear cut, the rules on what can be reprinted here are just ambiguous enough for the random new user to break them.  If it all works out, then great.

I don't know if I can see decklists as 'literary and artistic works.'  Decklists are ever-changing.  I've always thought the consensus (at the pro level) is that teams will eventually find the most broken/best decks individually and come up with very similar results.  Surely you cannot copywrite *just* decklists in this case.

[SpencerForHire]

For that matter, would a person running said decklist posted in a SCG premium article have to pay to play the decklist.  The technicalities for copywriting deck based material are endless.  

The fact of the matter is, don't post premium content, I'm sure in the future Knut will probably fix the disclaimor to allow posting of decklists but the entire article will have to remain locked away from non paying members.

[Godder]

Aside from being unworkable, the game itself is proprietary, so if anyone could lay claim to owning a decklist, it would be WotC.

[That0neguy]

I might be wrong on this but wouldn't the decklist belong to the player and not Starcity since they just typed it up.

Also hopefully they just do a separate page for the decklists like they ussually do and don't make it permium since making those pages permium would just be dumb since most tourneys will post the decklists for free.

[Whatever Works]

The decklists will get out in the end no matter what the policy is... They might not be post links in a place as odvious as the TMD websight (that would just be dumb), but I am sure the lists/info will get out...

On several other pay sights people often will just transfer the article to word, and email it to friends... This is common place for Brainburst.com, and with the type 2 players who desperatly need info before states, and are scrounging every penny to get that playset of cranial extractions I am not suprised.

[Nefarias]

I might be wrong on this but wouldn't the decklist belong to the player and not Starcity since they just typed it up.

I'm no lawyer, but at least in the case of Featured Writers, I believe SCG buys the rights to the decklists.

[Godder]

Wizards has started posting top 8 lists for Extended PTQs, as they did last year for Regionals, so obviously they don't consider lists to be proprietary in any useful sense.

In any case, I have some questions about decklists that appear in SCG Premium articles:

Does SCG own that exact list? If so, would a one card change be sufficient?
If not one, how many cards? Alternatively, does SCG own all similar lists? E.g. If they talk about Ravager Affinity, do they now own all rights to the concept of Ravager Affinity or just that list?

In the event that we accept that SCG owns decklists in Premium articles, what if a Premium Subscriber posts it somewhere else? Or use it in a tourney? What if a non-subscriber comes up with the same list without ever seeing the list on SCG? And then posts it round the Web? What if they came up with it first?

Hopefully that's enough to convince people that nobody 'owns' decklists in a legally copyrighted fashion, but I'm sure I can come up with stickier questions than those if necessary.