Ironworks

[ElyasMachera]

1st off you dont have a one card kill, you stated that C. sphere was there cuase you needed to cast walk and twister which is the kill so that means bauble and sphere is the kill. 

About staff vs bauble:  In your summation i think you prove yourself wrong.  Staff is a must counter, bauble creates 1 more must counter so the threat count is the same.  As for the second card, trike, it replaces a card that is only there because of the bauble. 
Granted neither of the cards are cantrips, but Bouble and Sphere dont EVER say tinker/ tutor me out now and just win.  Also, worker/staff is just one more combanation of cards that can make you win but theres only 2 pieces as opposed to 5.

 If mana issues are really that big a problem for the deck then stay with the bauble/spherefor the 1 exrta card, but killing welders and tapping darksteel Colls seems much stronger.

[waSP]

If you start with Koen's original list, and start changing cards to try to make it run faster and more consistently, yes I would have a one card kill.  Chromatic Sphere has always been in the deck because it fixes your mana.  Time Walk has always been in the deck because it is good.  Koen runs Arcbound Ravager in addition to the core cards.  That's a one card kill.  I run Conjurer's Bauble in addition to the core cards.  That's a one card kill.  You could run Staff of Domination in addition to the core cards, but you'd still need to change/add another card to get the instant kill.  If you were going to play something anyway (like maybe you want a Goblin Sharpshooter?), then running Staff would be considered a one card kill.

This thread is using my current list as a jumping off point.  If you wish to change something fundamental in the deck, fire me a pm.  Show me your list, and I'll tell you if I think it's okay that you post it in my thread.  If I said no, you could feel free to start another thread.  I just want to make sure the thread stays on topic.  Right now the topic is brainstorming 1 card kills (although this may have run its course) and additional sideboarding ideas.  This is mostly a showcase thread.  There aren't enough players playing the deck to get a strong discussion of card choices going.

Staff is not a must counter any more than your combo is a must counter.  Using Staff puts your eggs in a much smaller basket.  Rather than advancing your game state (by playing creatures and mana) you'd have to hold back to play staff at first.

Please, please, please stop posting your opinions on what is better until you have done significant testing.  It is okay to mention the cards.  This thread was meant to introduce the deck to the community and have an open place for suggestions of cards.  Arguing about this is not going anywhere.  If you like running Staff, go ahead.  It's time to drop it in this thread.  I would rather have the thread locked and the worthless posts removed than continue such trivial arguments.

If you want a staff deck, this is not the thread.  If you don't like having a 5 card combo, leave the thread alone.  Start up a deck that has a similar engine but wants to staff for the kill.  You should probably start that deck by adding 4 Junk Divers.  They'd actually be useful in a staff deck.  Good luck.

By the way.  You run a 5 card combo.  This isn't a 5 card combo deck.  It's not your primary goal, to assemble those 5 cards (unless it's convenient).  Your goal is to draw cards and, if your opponent isn't going to win the game in the next couple of turns, apply some pressure.  You have to correctly assign your roll.  I have been playing this deck for about a year.  I've seen it's strengths and shortcomings, I'm trying to share them with you.  Your "combo" is hard to disrupt in the current metagame.  You have the tools to win in every matchup.  Your bad matchups are less present in the current metagame.

Conjurer's Bauble looks bad.  I agree.  You have to actually play it to see its power.  It is your insurance card.  It will win you games your opponent would have had locked down without it.  If you don't think you want an (or this) insurance card, cut it.  Run something else.  Draw is probably more beneficial than additional creatures.

Regarding the 4th Genesis Chamber, I decided that I was drawing Genesis Chambers too often.  It isn't necessary that you get a Genesis Chamber out turn 1-2 to win.  I prefer more access to Skullclamp in its place.  You can certainly run Genesis Chamber over a Steelshaper's Gift, I just wouldn't drop Chromatic Sphere or Conjurer's Bauble for it.  I don't see why you want Trike so badly.  It doesn't do much unless you go infinite.  It'd be a good fatty against a Null Rod.  That's about all the use I ever got out of it when I used to use it as the kill.

It's not mana issues, but rather consistency.  Darksteel Colossus is not an issue for this deck.  You have 5 excellent answers to it already.  Your opponent using two attack steps is not a good plan for them, unless they have Time Walk and a lot of counters.  Goblin Welder will deal with most Darksteel Colossus issues.  Welders do almost nothing to you.  Also, you could be tapping Welders with your staff.  What do you need Trike for?  If you're getting very different results from me, I don't know what to tell you.  My opponent affects whether or not I win in about 20 percent of games, maximum.  So, if your opponent is affecting 80 percent of your games, you either are playing the deck differently or you built it wrong.  I don't know what to tell you.

[ElyasMachera]

Ok, im not going to bring this up anymore cause like you said this is your thread, but I think you’re missing the point of what I'm talking about.

Staff is not a must counter any more than your combo is a must counter. Using Staff puts your eggs in a much smaller basket. Rather than advancing your game state (by playing creatures and mana) you'd have to hold back to play staff at first.

The thing is you just didn’t read my post or my point just went right over your head.  The deck is still the same.  The combo is the cog and it sets up the same way.  Get all the pieces and then win.  The difference is that instead of going off, playing walk having it countered and then baubling it you just play staff after the walk is played and win that way. 

The entire point of my post is that have great utility like trike and staff and possible random wins with tutoring out staff is better then having bauble and sphere.  A one of mana fixer isn’t really going to add consistency and bauble is really just ok at recurring stuff. 

It's not mana issues, but rather consistency. Darksteel Colossus is not an issue for this deck. You have 5 excellent answers to it already. Your opponent using two attack steps is not a good plan for them, unless they have Time Walk and a lot of counters. Goblin Welder will deal with most Darksteel Colossus issues. Welders do almost nothing to you. Also, you could be tapping Welders with your staff. What do you need Trike for? If you're getting very different results from me, I don't know what to tell you. My opponent affects whether or not I win in about 20 percent of games, maximum. So, if your opponent is affecting 80 percent of your games, you either are playing the deck differently or you built it wrong. I don't know what to tell you.

Ok, so maybe staff and darksteel was a bit of a reach, but not by far.  Also, I don’t understand when you say the deck builds cards advantage and then wins followed by saying you don’t care about taking 11 to the head a turn.  Those things just don’t make sense together.  And finally, if you could explain how taping a welder is going to stop them from setting up an infinite slave lock that would be great.

I'm not going to try and claim to be better with the deck then you, but it feels like you think I’m suggesting changing the focus of the deck and I'm not.  All im saying is tweak 2 cards to add utility and brokeness without loosing the real strength of the deck.

[Marton]

The difference is that instead of going off, playing walk having it countered and then baubling it you just play staff after the walk is played and win that way.

Yeah, and you totally missed the point that countering the time walk is utterly useless, because you can still play 4x myr retriever to get conjurer's bauble back which will put back the time walk/entire graveyard back in the deck, and then you can proceed to draw your deck again, and play time walk over. If that isn't enough, then you can play your lightning greaves, use any of the 4 goblin welder, and get the bauble back in play, put back again the time walk in the deck, and guess what, draw it and cast it again.

If all else fail, you could also play timetwister to get back your time walk. (and of course, watching out for not removing the combo part in your grave and have it in play)

[ElyasMachera]

Right, and you can get staff back as well.  So both set ups can win through a lot of counters..... we have already established that.  Also, there no deck is going to have more then 2 or 3 at the most so its kind of a moot point. 

[waSP]

Rather than trying to get random wins, I'm trying to get consistent wins.  I played against Rico playing Slaver before Chicago.  Game 1, at the very least, was purely what I was able to do with my deck.  If I had a good hand (where I could combo through disruption), I won.  If my hand was slow or didn't have much draw I lost.  Slaver was never an issue.  He was better off using a creature to win.

Would you prefer a 58 card deck that has slightly better mana and more threats or a 60 card deck that might get random wins from 2 1-ofs?  I will always opt for the 58 card deck.

Darksteel Colossus will get welded into whatever was tinkered away.  If you don't have a Welder (because of counters), there is a good chance you resolved some draw spells.  So, you're probably winning.  Colossus is a turn too slow.  They are much better off getting a Trike to slow down the draw, or a Pithing Needle.

Marton is exactly right.  Although you probably only have 2 extra Myr Retrievers and 3 Goblin Welders.  That's 6 times they'll have to counter Time Walk.  That basically means that Time Walk is a useless card to counter.  They'll have to try to stop your combo.  But the combo is so redundant, that is EXTREMELY difficult to do.  It requires too many resources to be done effectively.

Staff does not say, I win.  Your other cards say, I win.  Staff say, I win differently (and with other cards that you don't need to boot)!  If you're trying for inconsistency, wtf?  If you're trying for something else, you're doing it wrong.

[Dozer]

Colossus is a turn too slow.  They are much better off getting a Trike to slow down the draw, or a Pithing Needle.
[...]
They'll have to try to stop your combo.  But the combo is so redundant, that is EXTREMELY difficult to do.  It requires too many resources to be done effectively.

Based on the 8 games we played (me with Gifts), both of these things are very true. You need very global hate or a good early control game to stop the deck. Mainly, this involves Null Rod/ Pithing Needle (which won't be enough by itself!) and multiple counters in the first turns. Wastelands are good if you have them.

The main strength of this deck is its redundancy. The more this deck relies on one single card, the easier it will be to stop it. With the high number of artifacts the deck already runs you really don't want to focus on any single card, because artifact destruction will be brought in against you. With the Retriever/ KCI/ Genesis Chamber, a win is almost inevitable because eventually, your opponent is going to run out of disruption. Even without those cards, the deck can draw lots of cards, and the pieces will just naturally fall in place.

Threat and role assessment are crucial here. KCI will always be the aggro deck. Trust me, because that's how I lost against waSP (2-6 in his favor). Any deck or any player who tries to out-combo or out-aggro this deck will very likely lose unless it is with something like Belcher or SX which can both be as fast as this. Oath looks like it has a good matchup against this deck, but if the Oath player isn't careful, his creatures will not be fast enough to beat this deck's speed (unless it's Platinum Angel without a Welder in play). This is a tool with brute force, and gives an opponent no margin for relaxation. Increasing that margin by adding a single card as main win condition makes no sense.

Dozer

[ElyasMachera]

i had a good reply but it got deleted so ill just throw down the main points.

1)  Staff is the focus the way bauble was as in not at all.  I guess if they extract with staff you only have walk and twister but im willing to take that chance.

2) After going off, they stop you when staff is the kill by having counters for 1 time walk, 4x welders and then Timetwister and having the mana to counter them all...

3)The difference bewteen 58 and 60 is small esp since there is a mana investment so its not really 58.  Also the win is from a 4 of and a 1 of  that you can tutor up very easilly, not 2 random one of's.  The combo is worker and staff to draw whole deck.

4)Having a way to race faster combo is good.

5)I understand that the decks goal is to play lots of small threats that eventually just kill, that ability is there and just as strong but with added flexablity that lets you win games you shouldnt.  If the deck just always wins for you then OK but in the same way TPS runs Darksteel this deck can be given much greater flexablily with little to no damage to its combo plan. 


Every time i draw buable in my opening hand or mid game its just bad or it cycles.  After going off it does the same thing that any of the other kills talked about does. 

Drawing Staff opening or mid either is a instant kill or is a card that can be utility, or a card drawing engine. Staff is dead only if you have very limited mana which is a problem with this deck but bauble doesnt stop the waste from blowing up your workshops.  After going off it does the same that any of the other kills talked about does. 

Drawing Trike opening or mid is either a way to deal with welders or Shamens (which are a bigger threat then welders )etc or is a dead card(the way having a 4/4 with ping ability is ever dead).  It doest do anything for the combo but does drawing 1 extra card do that much either?

6)Staff is not the focus of the deck in anyway.  Yes this is the same as #1 but you keep saying that its changing the focus and the reason your build is better is cause of the redundency.  With staff there is just as much redundency.  Its a 2-3 card change in the list.  All the important pieces are still there in the same numbers. 

[Marton]

anybody else got randomly killed by the opponent holding his ancestral recall and waiting for you to combo out, then right before youre about to draw your time walk that you baubled back on the bottom he makes you draw-3 and you loose?

That's the biggest downside I had with the bauble, otherwise it's the best ever.

[Marton]

staff is bad for many reasons.

1- it's 100% useless without an ACTIVE metalworker in play. This cannot be underestimated.

2- you still can't combo-out with staff alone; staff does not kills. You need to play the time walk in order to win. If you cant play time walk, then all you have left is timetwister. This essentially means that without conjurer's bauble your opponent can very very easily kill you with just countering time walk/timetwister. You could make a case that you can draw your deck, play trinisphere, then play those, but it still doesn't addresses the fact that it's a very easy way of loosing the game if your opponent does something as simple as: turn-1 duress (removes twister/walk), then counters your next threat (twister/walk), and you die. If you leave conjurer's bauble to avoid this situation, then that means your cutted something ELSE than the kill card to play staff of domination. In any case, you can kill without the staff, and with one less card.

3- I don't know about you, but I don't exactly often happen to have 4 artifacts in my hands. I do usually just when I'm about to win, or just the turn BEFORE that is going to happen. In both case, you would have gotten the same result with the staff, not better results. The turn you play the staff you usually don't have 4 artifacts remaining in your hand.

4- In regards to point-1. If you plan to 'fix' your metalworker summoning sickness by playing lightning greaves to allow you to combo out with your staff, you face many problems. First, you lost an artifact from your hand to get the combo working, which isn't very good when you want 4x artifacts in your hands after the greaves hits play. To make matters worse, the greaves prevent you from doing your combo if you do not have another creature in play. If you want to have another creature in play to put your greaves on so that you can use your staff of domination on your metalworker (due to greaves preventing the staff to untap the metalworker), then you probably had to loose yet another artifact from your hand, which is bad for the metalworker/staff combo. Moreover, you probably needed the mana to play that creature too, so you probably needed those mox/sol ring/crypt/vault, which, as you know, prevent you from comboing with staff.

5- The staff kill is at least a whole turn slower than the bauble. The reason being that your metalworker have summoning sickness. And you make a card rely totally on your ability to find the other one (metalworker), and get it actually hit play, and stay there. This means that you very highly increase your odds of mulliganning, which is very bad for a combo deck heading towards redundancy.

FYI, TPS plays colossus because TPS is slow and plays duress to remove the opponent swords. This deck not only can very consistently kill turn-2 undisrupted, but is also unable to both play brainstorm to put back your colossus in your deck, and is unable to deal with most of your opponent's answers, making the use of colossus very very subpar.

[ElyasMachera]

Ok once again the staff kill for everyone who does not undersand it:

Combo off with the Cog pieces, NOT the staff.

1st make a ton of guys play walk and attack GG

If walk gets countered then play staff, welder, greaves and trike.  Ping twice, and kill trike, attach greves to welder, weld trike in for mox, ping 3 times, use staff to untap welder, weld out trike, use staff to untap welder, weld in trike, ping. GG

If walk and one of the staff kill pices gets countered cast retriver and get piece back and play it.  If welder gets countered cast one of your other 3.  GG

Metal work is NOT involved with the kill.  There is no need to have the artifacts in your hand.  Worker was already in the deck and just happens to have insane sinergy with staff.

For the last time the kill is NOT a turn slower, it happens the turn you combo off just like bauble.

[waSP]

Your method only provides for 2 threats.  Mine provides for at least 3 (and doesn't require Lightning Greaves or making room for another card).  You way also requires tons of mana, in which case you're probably infinite with the combo.  Then, all you do is weld your dudes, rather than moxen.  Also, wouldn't your kill work better with Conjurer's Bauble?  I mean, you get Conjurer's Bauble back as much as you want.  Nothing better, right?  If Walk gets countered, then you get to but on bottom again.  You can keep on doing that indefinitely.  Sounds perfect!

I know you can't answer here, but I think this case is as closed as it ever will be.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

why would you propose kills that are harder to cast or take longer to activate

why would you propose new cards instead of the ones already in that have more synergy then the recomendations

Your not really picking apart a deck if you don't know how it works enough and are recomending cards that are already worse then whats included?

Congrats on the great finish wasp, ill goldfish and play some games online for a little while then ill comment.

[Methuselahn]

Having playtested with waSP here before the tourney as well as other times previously, the deck can really be a beast.  I hope you place again with the deck soon.

Having tested both, I would have to still convince myself to play this over the Hyper-Mud (sans 4 Trinis) decks if I had to choose a version of that archetype.  It is basically the same deck; artifact combo based on individual-cog style threats. You can kill with a big cannon, or you can make alot of guys and Time Walk, or with Hyper-Mud, cast your all your artifacts and then Karn, and attack.  I guess I am not sure that Ironworks handles the more difficult matchups better.