Nevinyrral, Archlich

[Shock Wave]

The problem isn't that the card is overpowered or has a boring mechanic but that Nevinyrral seems more like a powerful spellcaster rather than a bruiser.

I agree. You could shave the CC and make him a little more frail, although that could make the mechanic a little too easily accessible.

[Matt]

Nevinyrral, Archlich
3BBB
Legendary Creature -- Lich
5/5
Fear
Nevinyrral, Archlich is indestructible.
Whenever Nevinyrral, Archlich is dealt damage, sacrifice a permanent other than Nevinyrral, Archlich for each 1 damage dealt to it.

That is, however, a very cool card. Maybe we should split this card - have a Nevinyrral creature which is small in stature but has a powerful ability, and maybe make a big, beefy, indestructible 5/5 to be his bodyguard or prime servant or something?

Actually, this combines so well with Ephraim's new card. What about tying all three together like this:

Nev's Buddy [placeholder name]
3BBB
Legendary Creature -- Zombie Guardian
5/5
Fear
Nev's Buddy is indestructible as long as you control a card named Nevinyrral, Archlich.
Whenever Nev's Buddy is dealt damage, sacrifice a permanent other than Nev's Buddy or Nevinyrral, Archlich for each 1 damage dealt to it.

Nevinyrral, Archlich
<cost>
Legendary Creature -- Lich
0/4
You may play creature cards in your graveyard as though they were in your hand. If a creature you control would go to the graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead.
Whenever Nevinyrral, Archlich goes to the graveyard from play, remove all creature cards in your graveyard from the game, then return Nevinyrral to play if you removed at least (two?) creatures in this way.

Nevinyrral himself could have a lot of variations on the reanimating theme, but the idea is that he can reanimate things and he doesn't die easily himself.

[BurningIce]

I think you're on to something here, Matt.  I like that idea a lot better than the Phylactery one (although the phylactery idea is cool too, it's just too wordy).

[Godder]

Nev's Phylactery
Legendary Artifact
<Cost>
Cards named Nev are indestructible.
At the end of your turn, you may return target creature card named Nev from your graveyard to play.

And (possibly) a clause to be added to Nev:
When Nev comes into play, you may search your library for a card named Nev's Phylactery and put it into play. If you do, shuffle your library.

And (possibly) a clause to be added to Nev's Buddy:
Sacrifice Nev's Buddy: Search your library or graveyard for a card named Nev and put it into play. If you do, shuffle your library.

[Ephraim]

Does this mean that you're officially not going to use the idea I came up with? If you're not, I'm going to yank it and go make a legendary creature of my own, because I'm rather fond of that idea.

[dandan]

Surely if he is indestructible he doesn't need a toughness of 5? 2 would seem to be enough (damned Engineered Plague naming Lich!). In addition couldn't he just kill any creature he touches (destroy) and cause life loss.

Nevinyrral, Archlich
3BB
Legendary Creature -- Lich Lord
1/1
Nevinyrral, Archlich is indestructible.
Whenever Nevinyrral, Archlich is dealt damage, sacrifice a permanent other than Nevinyrral, Archlich for each 1 damage dealt to it.
Whenever Nevinyrral, Archlich blocks or is blocked, destroy blocked/blocking creature(s) at the end of combat
Whenever Nevinyrral, Archlich would deal damage to a player, instead that player loses 5 life

I actually quite like the version that returns from the graveyard although that would need higher toughness. The above version is no bruiser but has a very nasty touch.

[Komatteru]

This thread really interests me because I always wanted to see a Nevinyrral back in the day.  Here are the facts about Liches:

They store their soles in an item called a phylactery, which is basically any item that the Lich likes.  The only permanent way to kill a lich is to destroy its phylactery, otherwise they'll just create or muster up a new body.  Thus, the Lich is completely immortal as long as the phylactery still exists.

Liches can take one hell of a lot of damage before anything even happens, and they usually regenerate very very quickly.  Generally, they're unkillable.  A lot of them have flight, but I don't think that's an inherent ability.  One thing that is common is that liches are very, very strong in the ways of necromancy and dark magic, since that's basically how they ended up a lich in the first place.  They also tend to be really fast, as they don't have all that skin and organs to weigh them down.

Other abilities common to Liches:
-flight (or at least hovering, which goes with speed)
-ability to see in total darkness
-magical auras (goes well with the "a rotting skeletal being with magical power out the wazoo" characterization)
-bad smell (they are dead after all)

They also don't have vocal chords, since they are dead.  Voices have to be magically produced.

Apparently some people also think Lord Voldemort is a lich, since he keeps coming back from the dead and seems to be immortal.  The books sure as hell don't mention it, but it sure seems like it could be true (J.K. Rowling might not even be familiar with the concet of Lich).

Ok, putting it all together, I definitely think that this card should be indestructible.  He needs to have a high toughness, because Liches have a lot of resistance to Magic, being ungodly powerful at it themselves.  Nevinyrral shouldn't be dying to Lose Hope or Massacre or shit like that/  However, I don't think he should have a high power, since Lich's aren't really ones to fight in hand to hand combat.  He needs to have some sort of outrageously powerful magical abilities.  Raising stuff from the dead goes really well with the power of a Lich, as does sucking the life out of other beings, such as some sort of energy drain or curse flesh spell.  Anyone remember the 9th level spell Energy Drain from D&D?  Yeah, our favorite Lich needs to do something outrageous like that.

Also, the manacost shouldn't have any less than BBB in it.  There might even need to be four black mana, cause Liching is so undeniably black that BBB might not be enough.

What might be a really cool ability would be if he were unaffected by alterations in power/toughness.  That works really well from a flavor standpoint because Liches don't have much in terms of a body (or flesh).  The fact that most power and toughness drops are black is something as well.  A Lich shouldn't be able to be destroyed by black magic--it's a perfect master of black magic, and shouldn't be affected by it at all.  Pro black is something else to consider, as you shouldn't be able to animate a Lich.  That or the shuffle-in effect of DSK or Serra Avatar would also be very in flavor.

[Matt]

Hm, what about this set of abilities:

Nev, Lich
<cost>
Creature -- Lich Lord
1/5
: Destroy target creature. Add X black mana to your mana pool, where X is that creature's toughness. Spend this mana only on abilities of Nev, Lich.
{B}: Return target creature in any graveyard with converted mana cost X or less to play under your control.
{B}{B}: Untap Nev, Lich.

Is that energy-draining enough for you? ;D He kills stuff, then either reanimates it or kills some more stuff. Combine with something like Titania's Boon in multiplayer to wipe the entire board.

I think that whether we make him "indestructable" or whether we just make him easy to revive, the persistent flavor of the lich should be contained in the phylactery and not on the lich himself. So like either this:

Nev's Phyl
<cost>
Legendary Artifact
Nev is indestructable

or this:

Nev's Phyl
<cost>
Legendary Artifact
, pay 1 life for each death counter on Nev's Phyl: Return target card named Nev, Lich from any graveyard to play. Put a death counter on Nev's Phyl.

He should just be a normal, killable ceature...unless you control the Phylactery. Then he can't be stopped.

[Godder]

Like the Phylactery I created above? Somehow, the Lich should also come with the Phylactery, since no Phylactery means no Lich, more or less.

[Marco]

I'm still thinking about this. Some good ideas have been presented so far, and I appreciate JDizzle's post.

[PucktheCat]

Nev, Lich
<cost>
Creature -- Lich Lord
1/5
: Destroy target creature. Add X black mana to your mana pool, where X is that creature's toughness. Spend this mana only on abilities of Nev, Lich.
{B}{B}: Return target creature in any graveyard with converted mana cost X or less to play under your control.
{B}{B}: Untap Nev, Lich.

Oh man, this guy is cool.

Leo

[Anusien]

Cost it at 3BBB.  For the same cost as Visara, it's less powerful of a creature, but with a better set of abilities.  Or you could even do something like 2BBBB.

Then again, for the power level of this creature, it may need to up to a game winning cost like Phage's 3BBBB.

[Marco]

Change made to Matt’s idea. I’m not 100% behind this yet:

Nevinyrral, Archlich
3BBB
Legendary Creature -- Lich Lord
1/5
Tap: Destroy target creature. Add X black mana to your mana pool, where X is that creature's toughness. Spend this mana only to play activated abilities of Nevinyrral, Archlich.
XB: Put target creature card with converted mana cost X or less from a graveyard into play under your control.
BBB: Untap Nevinyrral, Archlich.

Also:

Nevinyrral's Phylactery
1
Legendary Artifact
Nevinyrral, Archlich is indestructible. (“Destroy� effects and lethal damage don’t destroy it.)

[Marco]

24 hour clock...?

[forests failed you]

Wouldn't Nevinyrral be something close to the equivalent of a Plainswalker in the Magic the Gathering World?  I mean, dude made a disk that blows up the world; he seems like he'd be too powerful, or more close to being on par with the actual theoretical 'plainswalker' who is playing the game.  It kind of seems like trying to make an Urza, Mishra, or Yawgmoth Card.  Those characters are most likely more powerful than the spellcasters represented by the people playing the game.  Just a thought.

[Matt]

First off, it's "plane," not "plain." So "planeswalker" not "plainswalker."

Nevinyrral is kind of a mystery. It was never firmly established that he was anything beyond a necromancer, and supposedly a lich too. If Chainer can be a card, I think that (in the absence of any evidence for planeswalking) Nevinyrral can be one too.

[Matt]

Closed and added[/color]