Too much power?

[HypnoticSpecter]

In my opinion there is just too much beta power out there...

I am sure that about 30% of all beta power played on tournaments are faked.

today these fakes are so good that it is nearly impossible to see difference.

i believe that many vintage players are aware of this issue but they don not talk about it.

beta cards are so expensive that making high quality fakes is a good business.

[Smmenen]

So what is your point?  If it's true, who cares?  Is this topic worthy of its own thread?

[rvs]

More importantly, why is this in the Vintage Open forum?

[Matt]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and the only way you can tell the difference is DNA forensics...well it's good enough to sit in my pond.

-Matt, Analogy King

[jcb193]

I totally agree with you, and it's hard for me to believe that someone hasn't professioanlly reprinted these.  At $10,000 a sheet, it seems like it would be worth it.

However, another question i would have, is how much Italian Legends is left?  It seems like Wizards has been giving this away for 8+ years, and yet they still have more????  Any word on whether Italian Legends has gone back to print?

JB

[Revvik]

Now THAT is an interesting question - there certainly is still a ton of that stuff around.  Even StarCity didn't want to buy - they're giving it away and still have an incredible overstock.

[BigMac]

Now there is an interesting expansion to boosterdraft with. Legends, hmmm, almost no good cards and having a 2/2 for 3 mana all of a sudden becomes very good.

You all should try it sometime, its really fun.

[Mark_Story]

Is the super high quality 'fake power' really an issue?  It solves some problems and creates others.  First is solves the problem of not enough power. By adding into the pool of power, that pool is being enlarged.  And furthermore, if these 'fakes' are totally undetectable from 'genuine' magic cards is there any reason to be upset.  Sure they may not have been printed 12 years ago, but they still look and behave like the originals, and are valued similarily.  Which raises the problem. Should people be afraid of these fake cards undermining 'real' power values.  Furthermore, do you as a purchaser of power feel comfortable, paying 'real' power prices for an excellently made fake?  Are you buying the cardboard, or the game value, rarity, status, and or collector value that is associated with power.

I think if you are buying it as a player (as I would), it doesn't matter really.  As long as it can pass a bend test, and look exactly like the real thing, then it should be worth pretty much the same.

[Whatever Works]

I dont believe there is that many counterfit beta cards as people would think. If anything I am sure there is more unlimited fakes. Why? Because, It is extremely hard to create a fake beta for many reasons...
A.) Aging factor... Alpha/beta is extremely hard to fake because its hard to fake the feel of a card that is 11+ years old (no matter how well preserved).
B.) For alpha in particular the different shaped corners are almost impossible to replicate.
C.) Deeper/Better Coloring... Its hard to replicate the color etc. of beta cards, and if you can then somehow having the fake pass a bend test, and still look old seems doubtful.
D.) The white dots on each corner... These featured dots on Black Border cards are very unique, and having them makes faking unlimited power easier...

I am sure fakes exist... Hell, I know they do... but its hard to distribute something like that in any kind of mass without being caught (and fraud on that $ level = jail time)

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, Collector's Edition makes it almost infinitely easier to create fake Betas than it would be to actually manufacture fake cards.

[jcb193]

I guess the other thing to try and figure out, is T1 growing faster than the fakes could be made?  Theoretically (IF THERE ARE UNDETECTABLE FAKES), the price of power should drop, as more power comes into the economy (unless T1 is growing that exponentially fast).

Ebay is the perfect free market, and prices continue to escalate.  I think the difference is that by now, most of the moxes that used to sit in closests have now been introduced to the marketplace and continue to be traded and re-traded.  Each time a new mox is sold for a higher price, the "market price" increases.

[Jacob Orlove]

Even if there was one fake for every real piece of power, there would still only be 40,000 copies of each piece. That's not a lot at all, especially when you consider how few are on the market at any one time.

[jcb193]

Do you think that it would be possible for TMD to try and do a population on P9?  I don't know how much penetration we have into the T1 scene?  It just seems weird to me that everytime i look through someone's binder i always see beta P9, but never beta Forcefields, Gauntlets of Might, Words of Command, etc etc.


JB

[Dozer]

It just seems weird to me that everytime i look through someone's binder i always see beta P9, but never beta Forcefields, Gauntlets of Might, Words of Command, etc etc.

Maybe because those are the cards with the highest sales value? I doubt that you can find anyone regularly who buys/ trades for Forcefields and Gauntlets. Sure, there will be the odd collector, but P9 are where the money is. Therefore, people actively hunt down P9 to trade or sell them at higher value, a feat which is almost impossible with the other Beta stuff. Wraths and the like could be sold as staples, but there are no Vintage players that need Wrath of Gods, and it is also readily available in many newer editions. Standard players will only seldom shell out the nuts for a beta Wrath if they can get even an 8th Foil for MUCH less.

P9 and Duals are where the money is. If anything, you should wonder where all the Beta duals are... but I guess in people's decks, as you need 4 each. With Power, you can more easily acquire doubles, because you technically only need one piece each.

Dozer

[jcb193]

Oh come on, let's be honest for a second.  Everyone always puts their good cards in a binder, they aren't going to leave a Beta Lich at home because it's not "tradeable."  I have been trading cards for 10+ years.  At a point in time (1995-1998) it was pretty scarce to come across players with a ton of power, let alone see it in binders.  These days you can go to a tourney and see dozens.  Maybe it's more condensed these days, maybe collectors have sold off their collections, or maybe it has been reprinted. 

Regardless, i still question where those millions of beta rares are?  Mine have been in my binder since the beginning.  And though i may never successfully trade them away, they will still be seen. 

And yes, beta duals do seem to be quite scarce in comparison to P9.

[Obviously i have no scientific backing behind my claims, but it definitely is harder to find someone willing to trade/sell a chaos orb (insert other oop rare here), than a mox.]

[Jacob Orlove]

The problem is that players just don't want those random rares, so they don't acquire them, and if they have them, they're likely to be traded away quickly or ebayed. I've seen some collector/dealers who have outlandish numbers of cards like Forcefield, Beta Braingeyser, etc etc.

Those cards are just far more concentrated than beta power--instead of 100 people each having 2, 2 people each have 100.

[ctthespian]

Oh come on, let's be honest for a second.  Everyone always puts their good cards in a binder, they aren't going to leave a Beta Lich at home because it's not "tradeable."  I have been trading cards for 10+ years.  At a point in time (1995-1998) it was pretty scarce to come across players with a ton of power, let alone see it in binders.  These days you can go to a tourney and see dozens.  Maybe it's more condensed these days, maybe collectors have sold off their collections, or maybe it has been reprinted. 

Regardless, i still question where those millions of beta rares are?  Mine have been in my binder since the beginning.  And though i may never successfully trade them away, they will still be seen. 

And yes, beta duals do seem to be quite scarce in comparison to P9.

[Obviously i have no scientific backing behind my claims, but it definitely is harder to find someone willing to trade/sell a chaos orb (insert other oop rare here), than a mox.]

Power is circulated like stock now.  It's a way for people to make a quick buck.  A person buys a lotus, trades lotus for a better deal of lesser power sell that power on Ebay and begins the process over again.  As far as other OOP ABU rares, I'm one of the guys that won't put my Chaos Orb, 4 Liches or my extra Alpha Gauntlet into my trade binder.  To most people these ARE unplayable and they won't trade cards near there value to aquire them, or they get an ooooh ahhhh comment as they pass it in the binder but no offers are made on them.

Now as far as AB duals, cause those are the ones that matter, they are going to of course seem to be less available.  People aren't going to leave them in thier trade binder they are  going to use them.  If you figure that Power is restriced and there's only 4400 of each BB power card that's the same for Duals but there unrestricted.  So there's only 1100 playsets of duals.  (I have a complete playset of Alpha/Beta Duals all 10.  You can ooooh and ahhhh virtually cause you'll only see them in my decks.)

-Keith

[orgcandman]

Actually, Beta power is easier to manufacture than UL power. When you erase the front of a card, the blank face makes one think that UL power would be much easier to fake. However, if you would take this card and attempt to make a fake UL card out of it, you'll quickly notice that holding it to an even mediocre light source, you'll see right through it. It will horribly pass the light test.

However, fake Beta power (a friend of mine owns a full set of fake beta) is much easier to fake. The black border, and darker shading that can be applied makes the card look 100% real, and it passes the light test.

As for someone faking power for a profit, it's despicable. I can't understand why anyone would mug someone of hundreds of dollars when there are easier ways of making money.

Just my $0.02

-Aaron

[BurningIce]

I'm in much the same situation as ctthespian.  I nearly have a complete beta set, and I've upgraded from UL, so I have all the OOP UL rares lying around.  But it's virtually impossible to get rid of them, so I usually just sell them on ebay/to stores.  As for beta duals, unfortunately I've only got 2 so far.

[everythingitouchdies]

alpha and beta duals are the reason I have a fourth edition mana vault in my deck. Too rare to chase and too hard to be a pimp without them.

I used to worry alot about fake power, especially when I was first acquiring mine. I was real picky and made sure I knew what I was getting. Now I am in the process of getting rid of that same power and at least can feel good that I am not supplying fakes. As for during play, I never questioned whether or not my opponent's power was real. It actually never really mattered to me.