Dark Blast Tog

[silvernail]

I've been thinking about dark blast and the dredge ability in particular in regardds to the fact that many decks try to abuse yawg will in type 1. I'm hung up on how to best use dredge to do this however. The most obvious place is in gifts and tog because they both make heavy use of will as a means of winning.

With tog decks in particular, you are drawing many cards and giving yourself many oppritunities to dredge instead. The biggest issue here is setting up the ability to cast will or just make a lethal tog while not actually drawing cards due to dredging.

Any one have any good ideas on how to make a dredge/will  engine work out well? or even just how to best incorporate dredge into current lists?

[War]

How would Dredging be any more efficient or reliable than using Oath to dump your library or Gifts-ing for a Will setup?  Don't get me wrong, I love the idea (in fact, I have several decks that heavily incorporate it), but for Type 1, it doesn't seem like a mechanic that skips your draw (and can usually be used only once per turn) could be a reliable basis for a deck.

However, I can definitely see Dredge, and Darkblast in particular, being key support cards:  They kill welders, kill Orchard tokens, and do a Squee-like recurrence under Possessed Portal.  It fills your graveyard (for Welder or Will).  I don't have any thought-out decklists that use any of these interactions, but someone might, or they could be developed.

[Methuselahn]

This is where I'd make the argument that you don't need dredge to set up Yawgmoth's Will.  Just play your deck and survive into the late game, then resolve Will.

Finding an alternate engine with dredge is something that should be explored though.

[cane]

darkblasting orchard tokens is futile

sorry to go off topic, plz continue the debate
(personally, I don't think it's worth it)

[ReAnimator]

I've been using Life from the Loam (L0med!)
With bazaar of Baghdad and Wastelands/stripmine to quite good effects. The synergy between Bazaar and LifeftL is really ridiculous, and using LifeftL like a crucible isn't bad either.

I think that LifeftL and darkblast are the only dredge cards that have a chance in T1 (with an outside possibility in Golgari Thug )
However that being said i don't think Tog or Gifts in their present form are the decks to use it.

Eg; you could gifts for stripmine, library, any other land, and LifeftL and really lock up the game after a few turns, but why bother when you could just gifts and win?

[silvernail]

well my viewpoint on the mechanic is actually that it is a support card (darkblast in particular here) that can be used to some effect with dredge potentially helping setup will. i played a dredging tog on MWS and dredge is only even potentially useful as an engien if you have multiple dredge cards, which takes away from good cards you should be playing. Darkblast is definatly a decent suport card as a 1/2 of but i dont know that an engine using it would be very good however.

[Guli]

I am using 1 Darkblast in my Tog deck. I believe that with a strong search/draw engine you can usually find it when ya need it (welders). It can be used to pump your tog up (discard DB to +1+1,dredge 3 cards extra,another disc+1+1,remove 4 +2+2=+4+4 NOT BAD FOR 0 Mana) and it can make a difference when your tog is getting through. Overall a usefull card imho.

[fromm2020]

life of the loam and darkblast are perfect for tog, whats better than building your grave for that huge yawgs will or the game winning swing, just look at extended, dredge-a-tog and mad-tog are brutally abusing these cards

[Tha Gunslinga]

If you dredge the Yawgwill into your graveyard, do you have a way to get it back?

[JigglyPuff]

hmm......life of the loam or other good card tog usually runs....
thats a hard one.....(note the sarcasm...)


you might as well be traumatizing yourself.....

[fromm2020]

you tutor for the will and hold it, then dredge away, and you can still hide it using brainstorm to avoid duress

[War]

If you tutor for the Will, wouldn't it be better if you had just played good cards to find Will with to begin with?  Then you don't have to wait to stock your yard -- the draw and search that found it in the first place will be enough to win.

Dredging Will into the yard is obviously awful, but wouldn't you have Recoup?  Or is it easier to just play Gifts at that point?

Bazaar + Life seems like some good to me, though.  But the difficulty here, it seems to me, is finding viable disruption so that you opponent doesn't just win before all the pieces fall into place for you.

[fromm2020]

no ur playing 5 will tutors so thats no prob so dredge is added tog damage, if u know half way how to play the deck this would never fail

[JigglyPuff]

the amount of tutors is irrelevant...if you vamp or mystical then the dredge ability is pointless and if you brainstorm than you just wasted 6 cards to do your "neat little trick", wher 6 cards usually wins the game...

you could play this and go 1-6 or you could play strait up tog and probably fo 6-1...it's up to u....

I do like the bazaar/ life of the loam, but i'd rather just have 3 squees in hand....

[fromm2020]

you obviosly wouldnt vamp than dredge, play the deck or just normal tog then come put input b/c you have know idea what you are talking about

[JigglyPuff]

i played tog for over 2and a half years so stfu.....

tog isnt food anymore.....not while contrlol is around with reb, pithing needle and a dozen other hate cards, coming from tormod's crypt to echoing truth once you're lethal to even a cunning wish for smother or any other removal card while they force your drain...

[P_f]

I've been using Life from the Loam (L0med!)
With bazaar of Baghdad and Wastelands/stripmine to quite good effects. The synergy between Bazaar and LifeftL is really ridiculous, and using LifeftL like a crucible isn't bad either.

I think that LifeftL and darkblast are the only dredge cards that have a chance in T1 (with an outside possibility in Golgari Thug )
However that being said i don't think Tog or Gifts in their present form are the decks to use it.

Eg; you could gifts for stripmine, library, any other land, and LifeftL and really lock up the game after a few turns, but why bother when you could just gifts and win?

It's easy to say that you can simply resolve Gifts Ungiven and go for the win while in practice, this is not always the case. As Gifts players should know, Gifts is both an early game threat and a late game threat, which is a big factor in making the card so good. Usually, you Gifts for certain cards whatever they may be depending on the game state or the amount of mana available.

The most common builds of Gifts has no less than half a dozen Gift combinations and if you play the deck, you've inevitably gifted for at least several different combinations, whether it is time walk or ancestral/academy/lotus/crypt to set up a Y-will that is already in hand, moxen+mana to solidify your mana base against a heavy disruption deck, ancestral/TfK/skeletal scrying/Fof to win the control war, Drain/Fow/MisD/Reb to counter something threatening in a pinch, or simply win via Ywin/tinker/Wish/Recoup.

The point is that Life from the loam has tremendous synergy with Gift Ungiven and it will potentially replace some of these combinations of cards you can Gifts for while at the same time, decreasing the amount of slots you need to devote to the deck.

While it IS slow to set up Gift/Life from the Loam sort of card advantage via cycling lands, once you have reached the 4 mana plateau to both Gifts and have green available to cast Life, you are more or less invulnerable to mana disruption. This means your matchup with ANY wasteland packing decks improves considerably.

Furthermore, there's a bunch of powerful lands available to us from strip mine, to bazaar, to Library, Gifts/Life will allow us to abuse these cards like it has never done before.

Also, if you go for the draw engine, once Gifts Resolves, you basically have an uncounterable draw engine, while it is a bit mana intensive to set it up, the engine is definitly stronger than gifting for 4 draw spells.

I definitely say that Gifts and Life from the Loam has a place in Vintage although it might take some time to figure out the optimal configuration for it.

On a slightly different note, here's a few things I can think of that will work with the dredge engines:

Flashback cards
Goblin Welder
Psychatog
Replenish
Incarnations

I don't think there is much else that can work itself into a dredge engine and still remain Vintage worthy.

Looking at the short list, it seems that Tog/Genesis and flashback cards are the strongest of the bunch.

[cosineme]

I've been using Life from the Loam (L0med!)
With bazaar of Baghdad and Wastelands/stripmine to quite good effects. The synergy between Bazaar and LifeftL is really ridiculous, and using LifeftL like a crucible isn't bad either.

I think that LifeftL and darkblast are the only dredge cards that have a chance in T1 (with an outside possibility in Golgari Thug )
However that being said i don't think Tog or Gifts in their present form are the decks to use it.

Eg; you could gifts for stripmine, library, any other land, and LifeftL and really lock up the game after a few turns, but why bother when you could just gifts and win?

First of all, I would always be EXTREMELY hesitant in ever making any proclamations determining whether or not a new set will only see 1-2 cards in use in this format. this has been done countless times and has often resulted in less than positive results. even many pro's missed this in the recent PT, and i'm sure there are many things that could be overlooked.

But i agree with the sentiment. having an uncounterable draw engine is nice! but really, it isn't necessary. it is hard to imagine a deck so untuned that they have the space for a separate engine that requires either intuition, or gifts to resolve, as well as opening the mana base to more wasteland damage.

Most p9 decks run less than 18 lands. 3 of those must be basics, many must be fetch, and the rest have to produce red/black or maybe green. i can see how we can cut fetches for the cycle lands, but that really cuts into our basics strategy and hurts us again against stax variants (our worst matchups).

i don't know about bazaar though

finally, just win...this is sooo fancy and takes so much time. i would rather gifts for...good cards that will further my strat now, rather than something that will take a few turns to rev up.

[JigglyPuff]

finally, just win...this is sooo fancy and takes so much time. i would rather gifts for...good cards that will further my strat now, rather than something that will take a few turns to rev up.

Like of been saying.........Win game or draw some cards........Hmmm.......

[Dozer]

Finding an alternate engine with dredge is something that should be explored though.

I don't know if the Life from the Loam engine is good enough. It showcased at PT: LA in Extended, but for Vintage, I think it is too slow. Of course, you have Barren Moor, Lonely Sandbar and Tranquil Thicket in your colors. Gifts Ungiven for those three + Life from the Loam will get you two cycling lands in hand, making the deal either 2 cards for 2 mana now and 3 cards for 5 mana later (Life ftL + 3 cycling lands) -- or 1 card for one mana, a dredge for another mana (2 mana, 1 card), then Life (4 mana, 1 card), pick up three lands, draw 3 for 3 mana (7 mana, 4 cards). The typical Life draw engine would be: Dredge in your draw, and then pay 5 mana for 3 cards.

In theory, this is on par with the 3 cards for 5 mana you draw from AK/ Intuition. But you give up a draw, while filling your graveyard for the Tog. If you are willing to give up your draw, it is a repeatable engine that draws three cards for five mana as an instant. Pretty good, and it is virtually uncounterable. I wasn't sure if this had potential, but looking at the stats and seeing that if a Drain ever interferes, it will only yield two mana and you can keep going anyway, the engine looks solid.

The question is: Is it more solid to run Gifts Ungiven Tog with that 4-card-engine than just the Gifts decks with the combo? My answer is no, because in both cases you still need to resolve a Gifts Ungiven. Once you have done that, you will be on the safe side whatever you do, and I'd rather put the five mana the engine needs into Recoup -> Will or another Gifts or even Merchant Scroll. I would need to dredge up a list, but so far I don't seeit happening. Maybe in Legacy?

Another Dredge card I have been looking at and wondering if it might be playable is Nightmare Void. I *think* it costs too much mana to run the risk of playing into Mana Drain, but repeatable unconditional discard used to be good before -- remember Disrupting Scepter? I don't believe it's good, but I certainly won't forget about it...

Dozer

[ReAnimator]

First of all, I would always be EXTREMELY hesitant in ever making any proclamations determining whether or not a new set will only see 1-2 cards in use in this format. this has been done countless times and has often resulted in less than positive results. even many pro's missed this in the recent PT, and i'm sure there are many things that could be overlooked.

acctually what i said was:

I think that LifeftL and darkblast are the only DREDGE cards that have a chance in T1 (with an outside possibility in Golgari Thug )

and dredge could definitly have a place in T1 tog it may just take a while to find what is optimal, the cycling draw engine probably isn't it, just look at the legacy tog lists with intuition and DA to combo with Stinkweed imp and darkblast/LftL, . you can get a lethal tog just by resolving intuition. Intuition for Blast/LftL, Imp, DA = +9 to your Tog + whatever else you have in your hand.

That configuration makes Intuition better than gush numbers wise as far as the Tog is concerned.

[bebe]

Tog itself is quite weak right now. That said we are currently testing the intuition/loam synergies. Weare testing going for an intuition for the following ...
Loam/Bazaar of Baghdad/Strip if we have a fetch on table or in the yard. This can create some very interesting interactions. Only one copy of each card is necessary which makes it an easy inclusion. We also have a single copy of Darkblast in the deck and a few in the side. As soon as you have lands in the yard and a Loam, the Bazaar becomes a powerful engine. We felt Intution was as good as Gifts in this build but that is another discussion.
As an aside, a reanimator deck took first place at a vintage tournament in Canada using the Loam/Bazaar/fetch/squee interactions. I would not discount the new cards yet as I think other uses for them will surface. Loam certainly belongs in Dragon I would think as it protects your bazaars and can fill the yard with a fast win condition. A Loam/Dragon/Bazaar intuition looks good on paper to me. 

[ReAnimator]

As an aside, a reanimator deck took first place at a vintage tournament in Canada using the Loam/Bazaar/fetch/squee interactions.

Yeah that was me (ReAnimator) running a reanimator deck ! ha ha.

I wrote a tourney report but SCG hasn't published it yet, if they don't i'll put it up here.

just about every game i cast life from the loam i won. the card is stupid good especially with Bazaar.

After the tourney I talked with Diceman (who was the other finalist) and he is convinced at least 1 copy of LifeFTL deserves a slot in Dragon.

[Scoops666]

After the tourney I talked with Diceman (who was the other finalist) and he is convinced at least 1 copy of LifeFTL deserves a slot in Dragon.

I can see that. Replaceing a bazaar draw with a dredge means that's 4 cards to find a dragon, instead of just 2. My only question is do you ever see yourself casting it in dragon, or just using it for the dredge effects? I guess you could return lands that have been dumped by bazaar, but my gut tells me it would be a really bad idea to retool the dragon manabasa just to support a lftl-cycling land engine.

And I'm going to have to agree with Jigglypuff in that I believe the dredge cards are unnecessary in Tog. Yawg Will is perfectly fiine being used off all the other cards played throughout the course of the game, and Tog doesn't necessarily need to excelerate it's kill with neat effects like this. It simply needs to solidly out-control the game and win when the opportunity presents itself, not before that.

[ReAnimator]

. Replaceing a bazaar draw with a dredge means that's 4 cards to find a dragon, instead of just 2. My only question is do you ever see yourself casting it in dragon, or just using it for the dredge effects? I guess you could return lands that have been dumped by bazaar, but my gut tells me it would be a really bad idea to retool the dragon manabasa just to support a lftl-cycling land engine.

First we are talking 5 colour dragon, second there is no need for cycle lands if you have bazaar,

would you ever cast it? absolutley!

Getting back wasted Bazaars is amazing, if you have a life from the loam going you can keep pace with a Crucible.
Also LftL is +2 card advantage every turn which is exactly what you need to keep a bazaar going.

[bebe]

The point is that Tog isn't working as is. It needs to change. You can still include 12-14 counter/control effects. However, the kill is happening much faster.  I've been tweaking various configurations for awhile. Don't discount the draw either. Cycling lands are a bit weak but still we founde them useful non-the-less as one mana allows a dredge activation and possiblly a win. Remember we now have two more control weapons in recurring strips and darkblast.

We need to find the optimum build for Vintage though as I don't think we are there yet. Lets see what develops over the next few months but I'm sure LftL and the dredge mechanic as a whole will be exploited in a number of decks as it just goes so well with Gifts/Intuition. Reminds me of the other discussions we had - ""Gifts isn't so good" "CoW isn't that bad" "Tinker/Collosus is at best a secondary win condition" I still remember the early Fish, Salvager, Madness, Stax and Dragon discussions where all of these decks were heavily discounted. I think we need to keep a very open mind on the dredge mechanic as I'm sure a deck will find a way to abuse it.