Shattering Spree and combo

[Gabethebabe]

I have a little question:
What is the effect of this new card on the matchup between the "goldfish" combo decks like 5C GrimLong and Belcher and their old enemy Mishra´s Workshop.dec?

In our metagame we have about 10 playsets of Workshops. I don´t know where they came from, since five years ago there was no T1-scene in Barcelona at all, but hey. They are there. Besides Workshop.dec we have an significant amount of dudes that don´t own power (or few) and play stuff like UW Fish with 3-4 Stifle maindeck.

But I worry more about the workshops and never had the "huevos" to bring Long or Belcher to a tournament.
Recently I picked up IT and it got me a T8. I kinda liked playing combo so now I´m looking for more.

So what can you guys tell me - you have experience playing any of these decks with Shattering Spree in the SB and what has it done for you?

[Necrologia]

I can't imagine it would do much. Shattering Spree is a Sorcery, which seems kind of bad. It also does nothing if they have a Welder on the board, but that's mostly irrelevant.

Honestly, the problem is that Shattering Spree is competing against Hurkyl's. Hurkyl's is decidedly better if you can get it to resolve, and also is in a better color for many decks. Granted, that 1 extra Mana can make all the difference, but I'd rather be able to wipe the board than hit Null Rod and Stack, leaving a Chalice or something. Which is another interesting point. Rituals, Mirage Tutors, and the almighty Brainstorm all cost 1. Hurkyl's costs 2, letting them slow you down or hit your answer, not both at the same time.

[cophos]

When playing combo board- and cardadvantage (*) are mostly irrelevant as long as you can still win the game. Therefore there's no need for (..) playing Spree over a card like Rebuild or H's Recall, since these cards do their job much more effective. (in accomplishing your goal as a combo player. Why would you bother about lock pieces in your opponents hand when you win now anyway? Additionnaly Spree's more expensive to cast (when fighting different hate cards obviously,), sorcery speed, (no: eot->  bounce, untap,gg) does not foil the opponents welder plan, can't help reaching 9 spells (which is a very crucial thing to have access to very often) et cetera. The combo only deck I'd want to play Spree is non U belcher.)

Rituals, Mirage Tutors, and the almighty Brainstorm all cost 1. Hurkyl's costs 2, letting them slow you down or hit your answer, not both at the same time

Spree dodges Chalice@1 also, therefore this argument against it isn't that viable.

[Necrologia]

Spree dodges Chalice@1 also, therefore this argument against it isn't that viable.

Minor mistake on my part, but that means in the face of Chalice for 1 you need to pay RR to get rid of it at sorcery speed with Shattering Spree, whereas Hurkyl's is blue, instant speed and hits Chalice along with everything else on their side of the board. So I guess Spree can hit Chalice at 1, Hurkyl's just remains much better than it at doing so.

[cophos]

Spree dodges Chalice@1 also, therefore this argument against it isn't that viable.

Minor mistake on my part, but that means in the face of Chalice for 1 you need to pay RR to get rid of it at sorcery speed with Shattering Spree, whereas Hurkyl's is blue, instant speed and hits Chalice along with everything else on their side of the board. So I guess Spree can hit Chalice at 1, Hurkyl's just remains much better than it at doing so.

100% agree.

[NaNaKy3k]

The RR or RRR of Spree is not a problem with Long, is a 5c mana base.

Spheree is good enough to be in SB, you need a little more backup apart from hurkyls.

I´ve tested Grimlong for a time and I always have been pleased with Spree

But, Grimlong and belcher are two diferents decks, Belcher is good against stax beacouse of welder, if they arent playing rods, the matchup is a lot easier, if not things become a bit harder.
With long, renember that are many look components that do shit against you, like Crucible, in fact, uba into play makes every brainstorm ancestral recall.

My advice is that if you are playing grimlong, play this on your Sb against Stax: 3Hurkyls Recall(1maindeck),2Esg(2maindeck)and 3Spree.

Also, Grimlong has some metagame Slots, if you know Stax is predominant in bcn, just cut the Xantid for another hurkyls and so

[That0neguy]

If you have a ton of stax in your area why not just stick with IT it can fight through most hate w/o killing it anyways and it runs chain, rebuild, and hyrkyls all main with a ton of tutors.  Why bother trying to win on turn 1/2 when they can't win until like turn 20 anyways.  The only way that Stax can race IT is if stax gets a wick trinisphere cruc/stack lock and that is really rare.  If you have a ton of combo just stick with IT.

[Necrologia]

The RR or RRR of Spree is not a problem with Long, is a 5c mana base.

If you're having easy access to RRR against Stax they're either a terrible player or you rip like Long himself. Between Wastes, Gemstone counters running out, and the occasional Underground Sea it's hard enough to get RR, let alone 3 red mana. Sorcery speed is still a huge problem as well. I'd much, much rather see an Oxidize or Hurkyl's recall in my grip than Shattering Spree playing against Shops.

[yespuhyren]

This is all based on The Jester, which is the version of Stax I and many others are playing

First of all, IF stax knows you are playing combo, we will immediately set Chalice@1 ASAP.  This will mean that spree will immediately lose 1 copy.  With 5 strips and crucibles, not to mention tangle wires (because spree is a sorcery) I would be surprised if you were able to fire off a large spree.

Second of all, Hurkyl's/Rebuild/is clearly better in my opinion because they don't cost 1 and they affect every artifact, and therefore the EOT shot to Stax is usually fatal.  This is why I've started playing with enchantments against Oath and Combo, as the artifacts are just too easy to remove.

[Pitlord]

When I am playing 5c Changstax, my preferred build of stax, I always set chailce at 1 asap *edit*against combo*edit*, even though it hurts my deck a lot as well. I can easily win without welders, they cant win as easily wihtout rituals. I also play 6 strip effects thanks to a mainbord crop rotation, and 4 cruible. You should almost never have the mana to spree for for than 1 or 2, and that is without chalice. If they get the mana for an eot rebuild though, I usualy know I am done for.

As for deck choice, from a stax perspective, I would generally rather see IT, unless I am playing against someone I know is VERY good with the deck. IT can't "oops, I win" like grim can, which is a big factor. Grim can win first turn, before I can even drop a lock. IT can play some moxes, and a land. The hate can't fight through a good stax hand, not at least without a lot of experience for the IT player, which I kind of doubt that a lot of people can play IT flawlessly.

[yespuhyren]

IT is a wierd matchup.  So far, I haven't lost nearly as many matches to IT as I have won with Stax (The Jester) though they claim that stax is a walk in the park.  I'm not really sure why, as I only see 2 deadly spells MD (Hurkyl's, Rebuild) and IF I can cap them early for tendrils, hurkyl's, rebuild, then I am in no rush to win.  G2/3 they have confidants, a 2nd hurkyl, and 3 tendrils, but as long as I can cap them for double hurkyl/rebuild, I can still staxlock out their tendrils, and I have 4 b-ring 4 shards against confidant.  I also have 4 pyrostatic pillar which make it much harder for them to win, especially with confidants and 8 fetches damaging them, and 4 Tcrypts in there as well to cause them more trouble.

But, I guess they have played more matches than I do, so maybe it is a bad matchup.  Who knows :S

[Pitlord]

I agree that IT has never been a terrible match for stax, despite what IT players say. I play changstax with chalice, 4 crucible, and tangle wire over some of the meta slots, and IT has never been terrible. They can't win before I can get a lock part, and with like 2 locks down, it is game over. I haven't played against a whole lot of really good IT players, but a few games against like Solly here and there. Maybe I just got lucky, but either way, I won..

[ErkBek]

I agree that IT has never been a terrible match for stax, despite what IT players say. I play changstax with chalice, 4 crucible, and tangle wire over some of the meta slots, and IT has never been terrible. They can't win before I can get a lock part, and with like 2 locks down, it is game over. I haven't played against a whole lot of really good IT players, but a few games against like Solly here and there. Maybe I just got lucky, but either way, I won..

Uba Stax is an easy matchup for a IT, 5-C is a little harder maybe 70-30, and I'm yet to do much testing vs. uba cap. I think IT players will have to learn about what hands to keep to beat stax players. I seriously keep what appear to be awful hands vs. stax and slow roll them. Maybe I'll write an article on it and show some goldfish hands like steve did with his new stax deck. If anybody has Q's on some sample hands that have come up vs. stax in playing or testing, pm me about them and I'll try to use them in the article (let me know what game it is, who's on the play, and what you know about your opponent's deck).

EDIT: I found some stats, I'm 13-3 vs. stax in tourney play.

[Midknight]

Shattering Spree is amazing versus Stax. If there's a Chalice of the Void with one counter, it only counters the first copy and not the replicate copies. If Trinisphere is in play and you pay three red mana, it still destroys three artifacts. It's also good against control decks. If you're afraid of it being countered, the replicate copies aren't countered, so you can target the same artifact twice to make sure it gets destroyed.

Fixed a grammatical abomination.  We expect you to use proper English here. -Klep

[The Atog Lord]

One thing about Spree that I would like to point out. It is the only card which deals with Null Rod for a single mana, while at the same time also being able to remove a chalice for one. While Recall and Spree can both deal with a Null Rod, the one mana can make all the difference in the world in combo. Also, in a deck without Drain or Force, the fact that Recall is blue and an instant is less important.

[Pitlord]

Rich (Atog Lord) brings up a good point. If you have a few sources of red, this IS one of the few cards that can take care of chalice and null rod cheaply. However, with so few decks play a lot of red, I think rack and ruin will probably remain the standard. If you are playing lots of red though, I think the multiple reds and sorcery speed may be worth it to blow up several artifacts cheaply.

@Kobefan... In you tournament testing against stax, what percentage of your wins and losses were against uba compared to 5c stax? I am just wondering exactly how IT plays against both, and I think an article with goldfishes would be pretty cool.

[Whatever Works]

One thing about Spree that I would like to point out. It is the only card which deals with Null Rod for a single mana, while at the same time also being able to remove a chalice for one. While Recall and Spree can both deal with a Null Rod, the one mana can make all the difference in the world in combo. Also, in a deck without Drain or Force, the fact that Recall is blue and an instant is less important.

You forgot overload. lol

Honestly though, this card is insane in 2 land belcher. Its just flat out great, because that deck gets sooo much mana. If your concerned about not getting ennough red then just shove in a few seething songs and problem solved.

In grim long etc. it is truly awful though.

Kyle L

Quote Fixed. -Klep

[The Atog Lord]

It is the only card which deals with Null Rod for a single mana, while at the same time also being able to remove a chalice for one.

No, I remembered. Overload isn't too good at hitting a Chalice at one

[ErkBek]

@Kobefan... In you tournament testing against stax, what percentage of your wins and losses were against uba compared to 5c stax? I am just wondering exactly how IT plays against both, and I think an article with goldfishes would be pretty cool.

I'm 6-1 vs. Uba and 7-2 vs. 5C.

[roberts91rom]

#1-Bounce is better than artifact destruction in combo. Bounce can at least ramp up storm bouncing moxen, etc.

#2-Instant speed artifact hate is better because during your turn, AND against Stax, Shattering Spree can't deal with anything deadly such as a lock piece or an EoT welder activation. Rack and Ruin>Shattering Spree.

#3-Mana commitment of multiple red is a nightmare in the matchups where big Shattering Sprees matter.

#4-Chalice@1 is a pain in the ass already for combo. Throw in the fact that Shattering Spree will cost you RRR for Rack and Ruin, and Spree looks worse and worse.

Conclusion: Shattering Spree is a Mono-Red/2 Color card, not a 5 Color combo card.