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Author Topic: [Premium Article] Meandecklists and the Rochester Wrap Up  (Read 3005 times)
Smmenen
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« on: June 21, 2006, 11:24:44 pm »

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=Stephen%20Menendian

Stephen revisits his predictions for the Rochester SCG Power 9 events, and gives a breakdown of the field. Some of his predictions were spot on... some, not so much. He investigates the impact the results have on the Vintage metagame, and presents some strong decklists from the successful strategies. A perfect article for those planning to play at the upcoming SCG Power 9 events in Charlotte!
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Ishi
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 02:36:17 pm »

Overall, the article seemed okay, but a little thin.

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Cards in Vintage should not be evaluated primarily or even secondarily on the basis of card advantage, but by how much they assist in a game win.

Shouldn't the aim of theory be to reduce complexity, not the otherway around?  It's one thing to say that card advantage is not so important nowadays, tempo is more important (or whatever concept you want).  But it doesn't seem usefull to tell people to evaluate cards on "how much they assist in a game win".
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 04:01:38 pm »

Overall, the article seemed okay, but a little thin.

Quote
Cards in Vintage should not be evaluated primarily or even secondarily on the basis of card advantage, but by how much they assist in a game win.

Shouldn't the aim of theory be to reduce complexity, not the otherway around?  It's one thing to say that card advantage is not so important nowadays, tempo is more important (or whatever concept you want).  But it doesn't seem usefull to tell people to evaluate cards on "how much they assist in a game win".

I think he means that decks in vintage almost all play a bit like combo decks rather than whatever their particular deck type is (ie. all decks try to assemble certain elements and just win the game).  The cards should be evaluated on their ability to keep you "on the map" rather than their ability to do things liike generate card advantage.
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 05:08:42 pm »

Very nice article Steve. Surprised not to see a meandeck gifts list included in the article, I know you have one here on TMD, have there been any modifications made since your last posts about the deck?
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Smmenen
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 05:22:19 pm »

Overall, the article seemed okay, but a little thin.

Quote
Cards in Vintage should not be evaluated primarily or even secondarily on the basis of card advantage, but by how much they assist in a game win.

Shouldn't the aim of theory be to reduce complexity, not the otherway around?  It's one thing to say that card advantage is not so important nowadays, tempo is more important (or whatever concept you want).  But it doesn't seem usefull to tell people to evaluate cards on "how much they assist in a game win".

The goal is not complexity, but relevance.  Card advantage misdirects our attention to things that aren't important.  Our undersatnding of magic is so imbued with card advantage, that an explicit focus on it can actually be harmful. 

WHat did you think of my new Ichorid list?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 07:06:00 pm by Smmenen » Logged
houseplant
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 08:10:57 pm »

WHat did you think of my new Ichorid list?

I like it.  I’ve been waiting to see what the meandeck ichy was going to be.

I ended up bringing a slightly similar list to a tournament last weekend. Only went 2-2 but that’s just because I’m still a n00b and do a lot of play mistakes. Like chaining a planer void on my turn with my only mana source so he could just plat it again on his turn. Blah.

But yeah, the list I ended up running was

4 bazaars
4 gemstone mines
4 city of brass
1 strip mine
1 mox jet
1 chrome mox
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus

1 vamp tutor
1 gamble
1 crop rotation
1 chains of vapour
3 careful studies

4 putrid imps
4 stink imps
4 grave trolls
4 ichorids
4 ghouls

4 layline of the void
3 unmask (only have three, but I like having 3 in there)
4 cabal therapy
4 chalice of the void


SB was
3 chains of vapour
4 null rods
4 pithing needles
1 mox sapphire
2 golgari thugs
1 darkblast

The last 4 of my side board was for if I ran into decks with really no hate I could through that in instead of laylines and just speed the deck up more.

And I went with the gamble because I don't have $100+ for seal, and I actually really like gamble better anyway, haven't really tried seal though. I actually most of the time find VT to be one of the cards in the deck I don't really want to see. I’d never keep a hand that relies on VT and it slows me down too much because I have to wait then another turn before I start dredging. and seal is just a worse version of VT so I went with gamble, which really the time you tutor is first tern when you have 7 cards in your hand, which most of the time at least half of them you want in your graveyard anyway, so yes there is a risk you loose the card you want, but there is more of a chance you'll not only get the card you want but get a card in to your grave yard that you want. But again another card I wouldn't keep a hand just because it is in it. And once I drew a gamble but only had mox jet in play so I couldn't play it. But I still stick by it.

A dragon player first round was all bitter to see mainboard laylines, he was saying before the match because they knew I was playing ichy that I probably have laylines sideboard, I smirked, then when we started the first game I’m like, you gonna keep, he was like, yup, then ok, layline comes in. the look on his face was priceless.

But anyway, this really has nothing to do with your topic.

You did come really close with picking out the field, other than fish. But who could have guessed that fish decided not to show up.
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Dominik
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 08:35:32 pm »

What did you think of my new Ichorid list?

Would you be able to post it here so that even those that do not have premium can comment on it? Also, I was just wondering about your decision to not run Ichorid at either day of the SCG tournament. Did you analyze the field and predict that Grim Long would clearly be a better choice (considering that people were expecting Ichorid and packing GY hate against it)? Did ANY member of Meandeck actually decide to play Ichorid?

And there you have it. I personally think the promotion of this deck is a way to get Combo back into the format... What better way to do it then to promote a deck that gets thrashed by it? Ofcourse, I could just be off my rocker... Or just sniffing a bit too much glue. Either or... Conspiracy theories are fun regardless.

Can you confirm this statement? (Just having some fun Razz)
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Smmenen
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 09:48:18 pm »

Not true, my most recent ichorid list has 4 Leylines maindeck and 4 Chalice.  Hardly a walk in the park for Grim Long.  That's why I held off posting my new Ichorid list until after Rochester.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 10:51:51 pm »

@housplant

If you aren't willing to keep a hand on Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal, then you aren't going to keep a hand on Putrid Imp either. So do you just not keep a hand with anything in it other than Bazaar of Baghdad or what?

Our lists are pretty much identical, accept I gave up on the 5c manabase.
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nataz
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 11:35:03 pm »

@ the two color manabase

Crop rotate is one of my favorite cards in the deck being bazaar #5 and insta-strip. I can't see myself playing w/out it, even if you keep the extra 4 spell based draw slots. That being said, a two color base does have its advantages. For one you can run wonder out of the SB, ditto on massacre, ageist wennie decks you have to race. as easy as fish/goblins/TMWA (4x MD crypts, grah!) *can* be, its awfully nice to to worry about blockers or ashen mana (fetching basic swamp obv.).   

Fetchlands also have a significant affect on your land counts considering you are really only running 9 or so lands. In a deck that runs on %'s AND has the ability to see all 60 cards with regularity during any given game, knocking out a fetch or two can mean nabbing an extra business card off a draw effect unlike in something like say, gobbo's.

BS + fetchies is also nice.

The one problem you can run into is occasionally the land thinning effect can be too good, and leave you with no real land left to fetch during critical game states. meh.

on Steve's list...
Quote from: steve's list
Maindeck:
Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
 

Enchantments
4 Leyline Of The Void

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Chain Of Vapor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Imperial Seal
4 Unmask

Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine


I'm not sure what to think. I tried out a version with unmask last month, but I didn't cut brainstorm. I'm not sure I feel that this is the correct thing to do. I've never been totally sold on BS, and always though careful study was the bee's knees in most environments (something I initially missed btw), but it did allow a certain amount of reach b/c of its insta-speed. BS made it more possible to run the wait-a-turn tutors (vamp + imp seal), as well as being easier to search out chalice on the play (+1 card compared to either study or bazaar is important). Brainstorm for me was always simply better at finding mana too, making it more comfortable to play balance and null rod post board.

Course it has its slew of drawbacks also, but not including it makes me question again some of your other choices again. Aren't you worried right now that you simply don't have enough draw to really get the engine going? I'll give you that pithing needle and wasteland seem to have temporarily left the building, but it still seems pretty risky having no back-up plan what-so-ever. You can of course play the deck more slowly, but is that really worth the tempo addition that leyline and unmask can buy you? After all, the point of gaining tempo on someone implies that you can then capitalize on it.


~more thoughts in general,

card options:
gamble and orims chant are something I'd like to look at more closely in a 5 color version. Chant is like the super strip mine, or a timewalk thats costed 1 cc cheaper. Gamble for chalice/unmask/therp/bazaar 1st/2nd turn seems like a significant threat even though after that its pretty much going to be worthless.   

SB:
The more I play it, the more I just kinda want to SB in bounce spells for game 2. Since just about all the hate against you is permanant based (leyline, crypt, planer void, strange upkeep doodads, pingers, tinker -> dsc, etc) bounce + 8 free discard spells can pretty much solve it all. It also alleviates the problem of guessing incorrectly about exactly what kind of SB hate your opponent is bringing in, while staying on curve at 1cc. Game 3 is a different story if we ever get there, and after I've had a look at my opponents deck I can decide a little better how I want to modify mine.
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2006, 10:08:21 am »

I have the worst luck with Crop Rotation getting countered ever, it pissed me off to no end so I cut it and haven't looked back (tho' I was wrong about Strip Mine). Wonder is an interesting idea against Fish, tho' I think Darkblast is better than Massacre given its synergy with the rest of the deck.
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houseplant
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2006, 01:24:26 pm »

@housplant

If you aren't willing to keep a hand on Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal, then you aren't going to keep a hand on Putrid Imp either. So do you just not keep a hand with anything in it other than Bazaar of Baghdad or what?

Our lists are pretty much identical, accept I gave up on the 5c manabase.

It depends on the hand, if I had a hand with a bunch of lands a VT and that’s it basically I wouldn't keep it.

But if I had a hand with a land, putrid imp, careful study, and any kind of dredgers plus hopefully some sort of disruption I definitely would keep that hand.

Bazaar is nice but I’ve definitely won games with out ever seeing one. At one of the tournaments I went to I didn't see a bazaar till the 3rd round and I was 2-0 at that point.

Both VT and gamble help me think if I should keep a hand. But it has to have another way to go in the hand. like if I’m going to search for a bazaar I’d want there to be a putrid imp in there so if I don't get the bazaar I can still operate.

Another reason why I like gamble is if I’m going up against some heavily powered deck, have everything I want in my hand but a chalice, I can gamble for chalice, and most likely get to put it in play that turn. But if I imp sealed for it. By the time I got it would be too late.

Until I went with gamble I was only keeping the 5c for crop rotation. But that card has won me so many games that I’d never dream of taking it out.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2006, 01:45:52 pm »

I'm tempted to build a version that utilizes Gamble instead of something like Brainstorms or Putrid Imps, the card just seems so well suited for this deck as Gambling for Bazaar or Chalice is such a strong play. I remember Steve saying that he wanted to playtest Gamble but his team laughed at him, maybe it's time we gave the card a serious go now that Wastelands and Needles have left the metagame.
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2006, 02:43:22 pm »

What did you think of my new Ichorid list?

Would you be able to post it here so that even those that do not have premium can comment on it? Also, I was just wondering about your decision to not run Ichorid at either day of the SCG tournament. Did you analyze the field and predict that Grim Long would clearly be a better choice (considering that people were expecting Ichorid and packing GY hate against it)? Did ANY member of Meandeck actually decide to play Ichorid?

And there you have it. I personally think the promotion of this deck is a way to get Combo back into the format... What better way to do it then to promote a deck that gets thrashed by it? Ofcourse, I could just be off my rocker... Or just sniffing a bit too much glue. Either or... Conspiracy theories are fun regardless.

Can you confirm this statement? (Just having some fun Razz)

Check out Lyle Hawkin's list from Day 2, its a modified meandeck ichorid list with some crazy ass sideboard he thought up the night before (maindeck leylines and stuff).
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