B&R update?

[Katzby]

C'mon Kyle.  Don't threaten to make decks to prove your point then not make them when asked to.
I was being hypathetical with the statement. If 4 black vise was legal it would clearly have a huge impact on the format and be a format defining card. Just because I state this and believe it whole heartedly doesnt mean that I should be expected to build a deck that isnt even legal with limited time.

The main point against the card is that it is extremely extremely swingy in nature. (sure dark ritual is too etc.), but the only reason dark ritual is unrestricted is because it keeps workshop & drain in check.

Kyle L

No.  Incorrect.  The "main point against" Black Vise, meaning the reason that it's currently restricted, is that it was (believe it or not) a combo card.  I dare you not to believe me.  I'm used to being called out on it.

Black Vise is the only card ever to have been unrestricted and then re-restricted in Vintage.  It was restricted the first time mainly as a result of land destruction (made possible with the release of Ice Age) and Vice Age decks in standard.  Back then, type 1 and type 2 had the same restricted list.  The card was eventually unrestricted in type 1 after Wizards decided to drop the restricted list for type 2.  When Visions became legal, it had to be re-restricted as a result of Prosperity-Vise decks dominating the environment.  Those decks contained 4 Mana Vault, 4 Mana Crypt and 4 Hurkyll's Recalls, amongst other broken things, and typically won on the first turn.

The fact that this deck has, for example, never shown up in comparison of banned type 1 decks (battle of the banned, etc), just goes to show how even high profile Vintage enthusiasts just don't know some details of the format's history.

Despite the fact that the core of this deck (aside from Vise) is now restricted, I am strongly of the opinion that this deck could make a comeback.  If there were any broken 4-Vise deck built today, this would be it.


Katzby

[vroman]

so the goal of this deck is to get a hand w mana acceleration of such incredible magnitude that you are able to GIVE your opponent enough cards in hand that they will die in their FIRST upkeep from black vises?! and not a single one of these cards in their overflow hands will be force of will? and this deck will always go first and never get hit by turn 1 chalice@1?

hilarious!

[Katzby]

so the goal of this deck is to get a hand w mana acceleration of such incredible magnitude that you are able to GIVE your opponent enough cards in hand that they will die in their FIRST upkeep from black vises?! and not a single one of these cards in their overflow hands will be force of will? and this deck will always go first and never get hit by turn 1 chalice@1?

hilarious!

Don't straw man me.  I didn't say that.

And yes, the deck did behave that way.  Force of Will was legal then, too, so it was an issue that this deck could (and did) deal with.  It ran its own FoWs, after all. You draw the same as your opponent with Prosperity, so it can't be any worse for you on this front than current draw 7-based storm combo.

Chalice and friends would clearly hurt any revival of this deck, but no worse than they already hurt any other combo deck.  And people play combo decks.


Katzby

[That0neguy]

I have a feeling that the problem with the old "vise" deck was not the vise, but the fact that they have 4 vault, crypt, and hyrkl's recall.  Im pretty sure a lot of decks would be insane with that level of excel combined with the vise.  Now, if you tried a similar idea I have a feeling it would still be safe.  And if not I have my prosperities and antiquities H recalls ready.