Meddling Mage in Ubastax.

[Evenpence]

I was planning on running Meddling Mage in Ubastax for Roanoke, but was convinced not to by Feinstein, Laplante, and Elias.  I actually wish I had, as the cards I would have cut for Meddling Mage made absolutely no difference whatsoever except for the Maindeck Null Brooch.  The cards in question would have been all the Duplicants, the maindeck Tormod's Crypt, and the maindeck Null Brooch.  I'd like to put my thoughts here on the drain, so some of you can know what I've been up to lately.

Here's a sample list:

10 ARTIFACT MANA
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

19 LAND
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

17 STAPLES
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinisphere

6 OTHER
3 Tangle Wire
3 Uba Mask

7 INSANITY
4 Meddling Mage
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall

I don't know if that's the list I would have run, but it's probably pretty close.  The Mage count might be three instead of four.

Think of Meddling Mage as a lock piece with legs.  He stops the primary cards which Ubastax fears pretty well:  Tinker, Rebuild, Hurkyl's Recall, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Echoing Truth etc.  In this regard, it is one of the most perfect lock pieces Ubastax can run, as once we get our entire lock on, only a few cards can stop us (primarily these few).  It can also stop random other things like Dark Confidant, Oath of Druids, etc.

Meddling Mage doesn't need to come out on turn 1 or 2.  He's fine coming out on turn 3-4, which is the primary spot you want to shoot for him coming out anyway.  It just so happens with 8 rainbow lands, lotus, sapphire, pearl, academy, and mox diamond (which is insane), his average turn of coming into play is around 3, but he can come into play much easier than that in many games - although I don't know if you need it.

Meddling Mage is far more worth it than other creatures as he actually does something extremely relevant when he hits - he takes out an entire card.  He's like a super chalice.

This card would probably be played as a 4-of in every Vintage deck, not only Stax:

Super Artifact Meddling Mage
2
Artifact Creature - Wizard
As Super Artifact Meddling Mage comes into play, name a card.
The named card can't be played.

So, it's not "what to take out for Meddling Mage," that's the bad part.  It's the issue of his mana cost - UW.  The wonderful thing about Stax (and particularly Ubastax) which makes Meddling Mage such a perfect fit is that Stax likes to play it's important locks first - Smokestack, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, etc - over very narrow pieces.  Narrow pieces include Tangle Wire (has to be on the draw), Gorilla Shaman (for opposing heavy mox openings), Uba Mask (which is secondary against everyone except maybe Gifts), etc.  Meddling Mage fits into this secondary persona, as it's by turn 3 when you can be sure of what your opponent is playing and have knowledge of what to name based on your board position.

In short, Meddling Mage is the most useful creature available for Stax outside of Welder. (far more than Confidant, Gorilla Shaman, or virtually anything else).  I have had very little problems being able to actually hardcast Meddling Mage, but when I have had them (which, again, has been rare), I've been able to bazaar the unneeded mages away.

So, start testing Meddling Mage Ubastax and having lots of fun naming Gifts Ungiven, Tinker, and Rebuild.  It's so fun.

[49 Cents]

Goddamn, you seriously stole my idea. I'm testing with a 5c Staxx list with no SoR's but with 3 Meddling Mage, since I always lose to Rebuild and because Mage just rocks..

[Moxlotus]

Matt Morrison and JDizzle played Meddling Mages in the SB at Gencon.  They were just awful.  Needing 2 colored sources is just too rough to deal with opposing Rods and Wastes.  Granted, we had SoRs which made it even worse--but they just didn't do enough to justify being in there, but Tangles also make sure you won't be casting them.  BTW--don't forget that Tangles tapping your cities zap you.

[Razvan]

The question of what to take out is relevant, because you took out the Barbarian Rings. Opposing Goblin Welders are a nightmare for Uba Stax in a lot of situations, and require significant play around, lest you be locked out of your own Uba Mask. Generally, little things here and there can be taken care via Rings too, so the problem might be greater.

That being said, Meddling Mage is a pretty good idea, and can at least in a way, address the issue of no Rings, since you can just call it with the Mage… of course, coming out turn 3 means it’s probably too late against more than just Welders. It’s bad against the main cards of most decks, but pretty decent against random hate like bounce that you know they might be running en-masse (which, of course, is dealt with by running Echoing Truth, Chain, the new split-second one, Hurkyls, Rebuild, etc…).

Definitely a neat idea, I will try testing it myself, but I don’t have high hopes at the moment.

[Evenpence]

The trouble with Meddling Mage in Stax this this: you need two colored sources to play Meddling Mage.  While your chances to draw those two colored sources in the top 12 cards or so is pretty high when you have "13 sources" (80% or so), the trouble is that having those two sources creates a bottleneck.

First, your desire to play Chalice for 0 creates quite a conflict of interest.  Say you play Chalice for 0 on the play, and did not have one of Sapphire, Pearl, Mox Diamond, or Lotus in your opening hand.  Then, you have only 8 colored sources to play Mage with, meaning that the probability that you have the mana by turn 4 (11 total cards seen) is only 50.7%.

Okay.  That's fine with me.  If I have Chalice @ 0 out, I'm obviously on the play, and something else probably made me keep the hand beside that lone Chalice @ 0.  So, I'm probably fine in board position.  If I'm not, mage coming down after Turn 4 is probably fine, as whatever deck I just played Chalice @ 0 against is probably not going to win before Turn 4.  Long can, but I wouldn't play Chalice @ 0 against Long probably.  It's all heresay.

Furthermore, you have a Catch-22 with the Mage itself: it takes 3 cards to play Mage, which means that three of the limited number of cards you see are going to one task, meaning your options with the other 8 or 9 are much more limited.  Futhermore, if you don't get the mana, then Mage clogs your hand and costs you a precious card.  Essentially, you are hoping for too much of a perfect hand, and when it fails, the cost can be too high.

This is the biggest problem with Meddling Mage in Stax.  It's just so hard to cast.

This isn't true.  I don't know if you've tested with the card at all, but I run 4 bazaars, not 3, so I can just pitch irrelevant mages if need be.  You don't need a perfect hand to cast the mage by turn 3 or 4.  It's been turn 3 on average in my testing.

Super Artifact Meddling Mage
2
Artifact Creature - Wizard
As Super Artifact Meddling Mage comes into play, name a card.
The named card can't be played.

Yeah, it would, and it pretty much destroys any illusion of color pie that might exist.  Hey look! Red has the perfect answer to CoP: Red! Black can deal with enchantments by not allowing them to be played in the first place!

Obviously WOTC would never print that card.  It was used for the point that it's very good if it is easily castable.  You know, my entire argument.  Can't believe you somehow missed that.

Wishing for cards that don't exist and cannot exist because they destroy all formats of constructed Magic ever conceived because they will serve you well in your pet deck is not a good practice.

?  O...K...A...Y...  I'm not "wishing for cards that don't exist and cannot exist."  I'm not somehow writing that Wizards should make that card.  Where are you getting these ideas from?

Also, clamoring for the unrestriction of cards because they would make your little pet deck better is also not a good practice, given than restrictions are done for the benefit of the format at large, and not for the benefit of Colby Evenpence.

First of all, this has no relevance to the topic at hand whatsoever.
Second of all, I said tons of times on SCG that I think the format is better without Trinisphere.
EDIT:  I had two more points, but they were just ripping on you.  Anyway, your post is just absurd.

[Jacob Orlove]

Let's stay on topic, here. If you guys really want to discuss a colorless Meddling Mage, do so in the card creation forum. Likewise, Trinisphere discussion should take place somewhere more appropriate, such as the SCG forums.

Please confine further discussion to the deck presented.

[desolutionist]

Not considering Bazaar, he burns through 11 cards by turn 4.  And since he should probably be seeing a colored source every 60/15 turns, Why wouldn't he draw at least 2 by turn 4?

[Evenpence]

Come on now.  Who's going to wasteland a city of brass or gemstone mine against Ubastax?  I suppose it could be good if you knew he had a Meddling Mage in hand, or you somehow get a huge advantage out of watelanding one of his rainbow lands (which wouldn't happen often at all), but it's just horrible otherwise.  There are much better wasteland targets.

[brianpk80]

Colby,

Nice idea.  Having played Fish for a year now, I have some bad news.  Meddling Mage isn't all it's cracked up to be.  This is a departure from my description of Mage in the Oath of Ghouls list I put together a while ago, but my suspicions were percolating even then.  

It's common knowledge that the strength of the Mage grows in proportion to the pilot's knowledge of the meta and understanding of how his/her opponent's deck functions.  But even at its maximum, Meddling Mage has an embarrassing error rate absent the foresight you get with Duress/Cabal Therapy.  Even with AEther Vials (which give you the option of instant-Mage after a Mystical Tutor, Gifts, Intuition, etc.), Mage is such a soft lock that I'm almost always wanting something more.  Let's look at a few common match-ups:

Oath of Druids:  Ok, here's one chance where Mage can really shine, but that's only if you know they are playing Oath (Polluted Delta -> Underground -> Brainstorm is far from a dead giveaway) and you resolve him, and you do it before the Oath hits, and he doesn't get bounced.  He's quite useful here and I consider the Oath of Druids match-up to be the strongest for Meddling Mage.  It's all downhill after that.

Fish Mirror:  Decent here.  I usually don't run maindeck Swords to Plowshares so Mage on Plow is a big bonus.  Because so few people run Fish w/o Plows as I do, I get what I believe to be the most out of Meddler in this match.  After that, it's anyone's guess how the Mages will play out.  People say you should always name "Dark Confidant" against any black Fish variant but then the Mage can be pointless if they run Vials (which are more common in Black Fish variants because they tend to be three color and the color fixing of Vial and Moxen > the mana denial of Null Rod in general in such builds).  I've also heard you should name Ancestral Recall if you've resolved yours, but what is the probability of them topdecking it?  Not much. 

Gifts Ungiven:  Fun to name Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will, but then they just opt for the alt-route or bounce the Mage and win.  With Stax, you have a 50/50% shot of guessing Hurkyl's v. Rebuild and even then, Chain of Vapor on Mage + mass artifact bounce is basically "Mishra's Nightmare" and lights out.  If you want to stop Gifts Ungiven, Hurkyl's Recall, or Tendrils of Agony, True Believer is strictly superior here, as well as having a more favorable mana cost.  Post-sb, it's a pain having one Meddling Mage in hand for me and deliberating on whether to name Tinker, Will, Chain of Vapor, Pyroclasm, Massacre, Flametongue Kavu, The Abyss, Mana Drain, Ancestral Recall, or Gifts Ungiven.  Most of the time I'd rather just see a Voidmage Prodigy and counter whatever big threat they do cast instead of pretending to be psychic and naming one of several in advance.  I sideboard some Mages out after game 1 and this is definitely the right call.

Pitch Long:  A good match for Meddling Mage, if I can live long enough to muster up UW (sadly, a big if in the days of Turn 1/Turn 2 kills), resolve him, name the right card, and have him not be bounced and then not Massacred post-sb.  True Believer is again almost always preferable here, as are Children of Korlis.

Stax: Toss-up.  Suppose I have a lot of permanents on the table and am dealing a lot of damage.   I know I can outrace a Smokestack and can manage a Tangle Wire so what to name?  Crucible?  No.  Maybe early on, depending on the table, but not in this situation.  In this scenario, unless there is an active Welder + Bazaar, I would want to prevent Triskelion/Duplicant.  So I get the at best 50/50% chance of naming the wrong one, but with Stax it's even worse.  Now there's Clockwork Hydra, resurgence of Razormane Masticore, and sometimes all I see is Workshop and assume it's Mono-R Uba Stax and they drop Mox Sapphire and cast Tinker.  Or... ooops, Crucible + Barbarian Ring, adios MMage.    

Dragon: Almost completely terrible.  No point in naming Animate Dead because they run so much draw/card filtering and have three different animate spells.  Rule of thumb: If you know you're up against Dragon and they don't lead with Bazaar, name Intuition.  Then sideboard those MMages out for Kami, Chain of Vapor, and Crypt.

Slaver: Very suboptimal.  Too many diverse threats in standard Slaver alone not to mention the zillion different variations.  Rule of thumb: Name Thirst for Knowledge.  Still, there are so many things in the Slaver match you want to stop (Tinker, Will, Welder, Triskelion, Hardcast Slaver, Fire/Ice, etc.) that Mage often doesn't pull its weight.  Sideboard some out.

Ichorid: Mediocre.  Now at least with Cookie Monster, naming Dread Return is a big plus but aside from that, Mage's only function was to stop Balance and Cabal Therapies that usually don't matter anyway once you reach Turn 3.

Random.dec: Horrible.  Expect to guess wrong all the time.  Even with the UUUU required, Mage's utility will usually be strictly inferior to Voidmage here.  

So, if you're looking for a lock piece that stops Gifts Ungiven, Tendrils of Agony, Mindslaver, and Hurkyl's Recall, maybe try RW Stax and run 4 True Believers.  Good luck,

-BPK

[Moxlotus]

If you're playing against Stax, and have to choose what to waste past turn 2 or 3--chances are wasting the colored source is the correct play.  I can't believe somebody that has played as much Stax as Evenpence wouldn't agree.  I actually thought this was pretty common knowledge.

How is 2 specific colored mana not tough to come by?  The biggest reason to not include stuff like ITEOC and Choke is because it costs 3 nonshop mana--but you can still use off color moxen and crypt to cast it.  I'd say ITEOC and Choke are roughly tough to cast as mage, and have a bigger effect on the game than Mage.

[desolutionist]

By the way: you don't get to see one colored source every four turns because you don't have a uniform distribution.  Card drawing follows hypergeometric.

The probability that you will see a colored mana source every 4 cards in 71.1%.  Hypergemetric Distribution is an unpractical means of calculating probabilties for something as trivial as this is; assuming "uniform distribution" is perfectly fine for estimating whether or not the Stax player will have access to 2 colored sources by turn 4.

[vroman]

10 ARTIFACT MANA
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

19 LAND
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

17 STAPLES
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Welder
1 Trinisphere

6 OTHER
3 Tangle Wire
3 Uba Mask

7 INSANITY
4 Meddling Mage
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall

Robert Vroman does not approve this message.


you make an outstanding case why meddling mage would be solid in stax. if he cost 2 colorless. Meddling R0bot would be awesome at even 3-5 mana, creature or not, whichever the community thinks is weaker, I dont care.
furthermore this sample manabase is wonked. if all the extra color you're running is mage + blue power, then cut Dtutor and run some amount of plateau/tundra/v-island + strands for the crucible synergy, and subtle utility of fetchland maneuvers. gemstone mine is ugly little land. 2 wasteland, no ports? youre the greediest.
it would be easier to only splash white to beef up sideboard choices and then run shit like Null Chamber.
but this kind of thinking leads to playing ancient Nether Void control decks.

[Evenpence]

I knew you wouldn't approve, Vroman. 

I decided to play Mono-Red at Roanoke because it was more consistent in opening hands and overall games.  I also figured the loss of Barbarian Ring would make a difference - it didn't.  As for the fetchlands, I briefly thought about adding them, but the problem is that you don't have access to RUW all at once.  Say you didn't have any other colored sources out and you have Welder and Meddling Mage both in hand.  You fetch for a Volcanic, play Welder, then draw a second Volcanic.  Just didn't work to me, although fetches do have more synergy with Crucible of Worlds.  You might be right, I don't know.  I thought of playing it like three days before Roanoke.

DT is better than Ancestral in the deck - it gets anything, including Strip, Bazaar, and any particular lock.  I don't think white has anything to offer - Balance didn't make the cut because you have to sacrifice MM too often.

[forests failed you]

You should consult Steve on this matter.  I know last year he was playing a crazy Stax list at SCG Virginia that played Maindeck Meddling Mage and In the Eye of Chaos.  He might have some advice for you if you wish to further pursue this avenue of thought.

-ffy

[Harlequin]

Has Darksteel ingot, or other artifact mana converters been considered?

I know that Ray R. has had some success running DSIngot.

[xycsoscyx]

Ah, so ya didn't end up running them, eh?  I still think Meddling Mage can be strong, and only adds to the existing lock, but I just don't know if a UbaStax core is the place.  5c Stax has a much easier time to simple add them because it's already an existing 5c base (though even there, it still can be difficult to cast it early).  The other key to consider is that Mage should be the final nail in the coffin, not the first.  Get out the standard lock first, then follow up with Mage to make sure they can break out (and beat down for a few when applicable).  I think focusing on trying to get the mana to cast Mage early leaves to lacking the ability to drop down the rest of your lock pieces, because you're stuck without Shop mana for that extra boost.  Your game plan is not a quick kill, take advantage of the extra time the rest of the deck is buying you.

[yespuhyren]

I agree with Vroman.  When I heard something or other about Meddling Mage in Ubastax...my first reaction was thinking it was some kind of inside joke.  Then I saw this...and realized it is dead serious.  I just didn't know what to say...seems randomish

[desolutionist]

you make an outstanding case why meddling mage would be solid in stax. if he cost 2 colorless. Meddling R0bot would be awesome at even 3-5 mana, creature or not, whichever the community thinks is weaker, I dont care.

The mana cost is irrelevant if you're capable of casting it; I think this is the point that Colby was trying to make.

furthermore this sample manabase is wonked. if all the extra color you're running is mage + blue power, then cut Dtutor and run some amount of plateau/tundra/v-island + strands for the crucible synergy, and subtle utility of fetchland maneuvers.

I thought (and still do) this would be better too.  The only problem is that it creates possibilities that your opening hand colored sources are a Mox Sapphire and a Volcanic Island...  And the Crucible synergy is something that I'd be happy to sacrifice if it means I'll be able to use a Demonic Tutor.