Rector Flash

[Moxlotus]

First, flash only needs 2 mana for the combo (similar to Oath)

The only difference is that Hulk-Rector can't hardcast rector (making therapy useless) and replaces those slots with more cards to find hulk.  This inherently speeds up the deck, but also makes it more vulnerable since pact is a scarry card to not resolve.

Oath of Druids is much safer then Pact... Oath is an engine in itself since it finds Rector and Theapy most of the time. Playing Oath makes it possible to minimize risk (not drawing Rector), while it maximizes the probability to combo out (as Pact does, but a turn slower). In addition to that a build with Oath opens up the opportunity to hardcast rector.

I don't think anyone was suggesting using Oath.  He was showing that Flash only needs 2 mana to win--just like Oath of Druids only needs 2 mana to win.

[Stamford]

I think ultimately, before we consider Rector Flash to be a good deck,

We must ask ourselves.

Can Rector Flash do its job better than the existing combo decks? Either in the more resilient field like MDG, or the faster field like Grim Long?

If all it does is acheive a cute combo like getting out Bargain and then drawing enough to ensure the win, is it worth it to dedicate 7-8 slots of cards which are useless on their own to the maindeck?

[Methuselahn]

In terms of hardcasting rector, while it does provide a nice alternative, it was considered too slow back in the day and is probably still that way now.  Obviously options are a good thing, and not every game plays out like it should on paper... but that just means to me that we should look for innovation rather than relying upon traditional modes of thought.

The pre Flash Rector decks are dated, for sure.  But now, it's a solid plan B.  Now you have added redundancy, and best of all, at instant speed.  Using Hulk in Vintage seems like a convoluted way to get Bargain on the table.  People take notice when innovation happens, and that's what we remember, but the traditional modes of thought win out most of the time.

Flash is a two card combo.  It's easily faster in Legacy, given the difference in format.  But to compete in Vintage, a two card combo still requires some set up.  Any deck with a two card combo will, inherently, not be as fast as something like Meandeck SX, which is what the hulk builds want/have to be.  Also, Rector Flash has all the tools to beat the Hulk mirror.

Can Rector Flash do its job better than the existing combo decks? Either in the more resilient field like MDG, or the faster field like Grim Long?

That's the big question, huh.  Future Sight has certainly shaken things up, so who really knows.  Also note that Flash wins at instant speed, MDG and Long do not.

[diopter]

I think ultimately, before we consider Rector Flash to be a good deck,

We must ask ourselves.

Can Rector Flash do its job better than the existing combo decks? Either in the more resilient field like MDG, or the faster field like Grim Long?

If all it does is acheive a cute combo like getting out Bargain and then drawing enough to ensure the win, is it worth it to dedicate 7-8 slots of cards which are useless on their own to the maindeck?

I think that Flash will be really successful in whatever form it ends up being developed as. Why? Because it would be a turn 2 deck with access to flexibility through Merchant Scroll.

[demonic effect]

The pre Flash Rector decks are dated, for sure.  But now, it's a solid plan B.  Now you have added redundancy, and best of all, at instant speed.  Using Hulk in Vintage seems like a convoluted way to get Bargain on the table.  People take notice when innovation happens, and that's what we remember, but the traditional modes of thought win out most of the time.

I actually completely agree with this statement...  However, I feel that this is a deck that truly needs innovation to be truly successful otherwise it'll just flop.  Without innovation, Rector is still relatively hard to find (slows down the combo) has a relatively worse disruption package than other decks (therapy instead of duress for first turn disruption) etc...  Innovation is needed to try and maximize the ability to find rector/play rector while being able to protect the combo... Merely adding flash is not sufficient.

Flash is a two card combo.  It's easily faster in Legacy, given the difference in format.  But to compete in Vintage, a two card combo still requires some set up.  Any deck with a two card combo will, inherently, not be as fast as something like Meandeck SX, which is what the hulk builds want/have to be.  Also, Rector Flash has all the tools to beat the Hulk mirror.

That's why we add in instant speed free spells to the hulk combo (summoner's pact) which double the amount of "rectors" we will be able to produce through hulk.  In addition, pact can get ESG for extra mana when needed, if you play fastbond it provides a way to play that etc...  In effect, the hulk version has a very high probability of winning turn 2...  With that in mind, i'm confused how the "mirror" will be able to deal with this deck since the hulk version packs virtually the same disruption... (i'm talking about hulk rector).

Additionally, this deck does NOT have to be like meandeck SX to be competitive...  All it needs is to look at the meta, realize where the gaps are, and fill those gaps in terms of hate/speed/resilience.  This deck is fast, is more resilient when going off than most "long" decks etc... and packs similar disruption...  The only difference is that the game plan is slightly more streamlined as in you must play rector in some way before you win.

If all it does is acheive a cute combo like getting out Bargain and then drawing enough to ensure the win, is it worth it to dedicate 7-8 slots of cards which are useless on their own to the maindeck?

I understand the importance of versatility and so on... but if 4 of the slots are rector, its not useless because you can still cast it... its like a tutor for bargain = good on its own...  Flash may be "useless" on its own, but it is an accelerant...  at this point you have to make a comparative analysis to determine the "useless" value versus the "speed" value in terms of the format, deck construction, etc...  In the case of a hulk variant, 1 in every 7.5 cards is effectively flashable making flash almost never "useless".  Not to mention, if nothing else, flash is still able to be pitched to FoW if need be.

[phiswiz]

I have been out of tourney magic for a while, so pardon my dumb question.  If the deck stays as is, what would you side in/out for given match ups and not mess up the flow of the deck overall.

[Sarah Angel]

I played the following deck at Myriad Games' double-header both days (Sat/Sun).  Thought I'd post some results and thoughts.  Didnt take very specific notes, and I'm still new to getting to know everyone, so I cant give names and exact turn plays in most cases.  But hopefully some of the info will be helpful.  Day 1- 2-2-1 then drop.  Day 2- 3-3-0

4 Rector
3 Flash
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
1 chain of vapor
1 echoing truth

3 merchant scroll
1 mystical
1 demonic
1 vampiric
1 imperial seal

1 yawg bargain
1 tendrils of agony
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel colossus

Power 8 (no timetwister)
1 Chrome mox
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
3 dark ritual

4 UG Sea                           Board:  4 leyline of void
3 flooded strand                            2 extract
2 polluted delta                             2 BeB
1 tolarian acad                               3 massacre
2 island                                         1 the abyss
1 swamp                                       1 Form of Dragon  2 hurkyl's recall

Day 1 - match 1 vs GAT (I think it was Craig Dupre?) 1-2

Got some very good draws and had 2 force of wills by the second turn to protect a tinker/dsc.  Game was over quickly.

Game 2.  Resolved Flash/Rector for bargain and didnt win!! Argh...it was around turn 2 or 3 when resolved after a little jockeying for control.  Had about 17 life I believe.  All tapped out when I hit it.  And this proved to be my demise.  I think I drew 2 rectors, about 4 or 5 lands, 2 more flashes, a duress, an extract and some off-color moxes.  Drew dark rituals, demonic tutors, vampiric tutors.  Even used a damned brainstorm.  NO Friggin black mana sources to be found!! (already had laid a land).  I actually wasnt using chrome mox day 1, but quickly added this in for day 2.

Anyways, after passing the turn at 2 life, I was beaten by a tog.

Game 3.  Every newbie is allowed one big mistake right....Couldnt resolve a flash but eventually resolved a tinker late game (post turn 5).  DSC facing two dryads (1/1 and a 6/6), I had it in 2 turns ( I was almost full life).  Got greedy (and extremely stupid) on the second swing and said, "gee, let's chain of vapor one of his dryads so that I can kill him this turn instead of next"...Needless to say, I was not very happy with myself for that loss.

Anyways, that's a close matchup.  I'm much faster, but have to have a solid hand/draw.  If GAT has suitable disruption first turn, he's got much better draw power and before long, takes control and is very hard to break.

It annoyed me because I really felt like if I had just a little more counter power, it wouldnt be a very hard matchup.  But my slots are (seemingly) pretty tight in this deck.....

Round 2 vs. Ichorid (dont remember guy's name, basic build though). 2-0

Game 1 - He goes first on a mulls to 4 but passes after laying a swamp and a mox emerald.  My turn: land-brainstorm for a mox.  Pass.  Dont remember what he did, but it wasnt anything significant.  Didnt go off, thankfully.  My turn:  Flash/rector/bargain/tendrils    When it goes off correctly, life is certainly very good!

Game 2 - My opening hand (mull to 6): FoW, Flash, Tinker, mana crypt, leyline of void, brainstorm - I draw an Underground Sea.  Needless to say, that game was over in two swings from DSC.

That was the only ichorid match I would see in two days.  Like others, I think ichorid is dying a very slow, but steady death.  Unless it goes off turn by turn 2 (which in theory it should, but.....), because of no disruption, it's nearly impossible to stop combo/tendrils decks.

Round 3 vs. Foodchain Goblins 2-0

Quite an easy mathup, though game two I was down to 8 life.  That deck is just WAY too slow against combo.  With a little disruption early on game 1, via duress, he wasnt able to get enough of a threat on the board and I had 3 turns to get to flash/rector/bargain/tendrils.

Game two - I matched his REBs with my BEBs in the sideboard and hoped he couldnt muster enough piledrivers quickly.  He got off to a fairly quick start, however and had 2 piledrivers, a lackey and a war chief.  I had a better chance of tinker/dsc than bargain (wasnt full life) so I resolved that and was able to BEB his warchief saving me from taking 17 damage from 4 creatures.  DSC powers through for win.

Round 4 vs Belcher.  1-1-1

I never saw a belcher in 3 games, thankfully, but he resolved EtW all three games.

Tendrils game 1 after forcing a huge turn1 EtW (phew!)

Game2 got beat down by EtW and simian spirit guide.  YET ANOTHER resolved flash/rector/bargain that I couldnt finish.....I cant believe I couldnt do it, but between not having tons of life when it resolved (think I was around 12 or 13) and drawing a bunch of crap (I always seem to draw 2 rectors and at least 1 flash when I bargain), I again, couldnt muster enough mana to get my storm high enough AND cast tendrils.  Chalk it up to my inexperience?  Probably.

Game 3.  REB my flash.  But I hardcast massacre his EtW with lotus.  I nearly hardcast DSC, but turns run out before I can get to it (1 mana shy).

Round 5 vs. Bill Kopel (sp?) and his homemade Stax.

One hell of an annoying matchup.  For yet my third time that day, I resolved a bargain, game 1 and couldnt finish it.  Granted this time, I was very low on life from Ankh of mishra and my mana crypt.  Passed the turn at 5 life and then lost to black vise/chalice/sphere

Game 2 - fun, but crazy game.  Turn 1- I play a land and mana crypt and pass (dont have flash or tutor, do have a rector) His turn - Wasteland, mana crypt, lotus chalice0, and ankh.  Great.  Still no flash, and I only had a swamp in play so cant play a drawn Chain of Vapor.   He adds a sphere.  Before I could get a flash, I drew bargain. Damn.  No brainstorm either. A few turns later and still nothing I can play.  Mana crypt is killing me. Fortunately I draw a second dark ritual and can hardcast bargain (lots of land, sol ring, mana vault), but dont have enough life to draw very much (maybe I shouldnt have bargained?  Anyways, only thing useful was hurkyl's, which I use next turn.)

Post hurkyl's I lay back all of my artifacts (except crypt) including a lotus petal.  Dark ritual and rector in hand.

At 3 life.  One more draw from bargain, down to 2 life. Draw an ancestral recall.  Lotus, vamp tutor (dang), rector.  Hardcast first rector with petal.  Pass.  Ankh on his turn.  Pass.  I play second rector with lotus.  Swing for 1.  Pass.

 He is at 14 life.  I swing with both rectors and get him down to 7.  He finally casts tanglewire/stack.  2 more swings and I take him down to 3 life. Pass.  He adds 1 soot counter and casts Dark Confidant.  I am only going to have 1 untapped rector next turn.  He passes.  I sac bargain.  Draw a force of will.  I have FoW and Dark Ritual in my hand....

I have 1 untapped rector, he has untapped confidant.  I cant swing because of his confidant. (I'm only at 2 life, he's at 3).  Pass.  He sacs confidant and adds another soot counter.  Pass to me.  I'm completely tapped out.  I draw a land (ankh still in play).  Another Pass-Pass.  I sac everything.  He's left with some land.  I have nothing.  Time almost up.  I scoop.

What I learned from stax matchup - Sideboard a form of the dragon!  (I didnt have it my board first day).  That card is basically game vs. stax, as long as I have enough to feed to stack.

I'm going to post my day 2 results and thoughts on the deck as soon as I get more time.

[Purple Hat]

if you're tapped out when you get bargain into play with a high life total just pass the turn.  what could your opponent possibly do that you can't stop by drawing half your deck?  you're pretty likely to hit at least one force of will and you're probably gonna fizzle anyway if you've got no free mana.

[twault]

I'm confused.

I've had the impression (and maybe it's incorrect) that many regard Rector Flash inferior to Hulk Flash, much in the way that many regard the Disciple build inferior to the Kiki-Jiki build. Is it just a matter of preference (stability vs speed) or playstyle (Tendrills, hasty token beatdown, or Disciple w/c), as opposed to one being a significantly better deck?

It's possible that maybe I've just gotten the wrong impression from people who prefer the Kiki-Jiki build, but based on what I've read, it seems most prefer that build over the others. 

I thought Rector Flash had been cast by the wayside, but it looks like people are still playing it. So, I guess my question is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of each build (Rector, Kiki-Jiki, and Disciple)?

[Implacable]

I think that the thought process may go along the lines of "I normally go off with Flash, but can go off without it through drawing a Bargain or Will," which gives your deck a Plan B (a Plan B is what Hulk Flash will never have).  However, I prefer Hulk Flash because it wins immediately, and as this report pretty clearly shows, that's a definite factor.  As to the Disciple kill, it just takes too many slots.

[Meeee]

I'm confused.

I've had the impression (and maybe it's incorrect) that many regard Rector Flash inferior to Hulk Flash, much in the way that many regard the Disciple build inferior to the Kiki-Jiki build. Is it just a matter of preference (stability vs speed) or playstyle (Tendrills, hasty token beatdown, or Disciple w/c), as opposed to one being a significantly better deck?

It's possible that maybe I've just gotten the wrong impression from people who prefer the Kiki-Jiki build, but based on what I've read, it seems most prefer that build over the others. 

I thought Rector Flash had been cast by the wayside, but it looks like people are still playing it. So, I guess my question is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of each build (Rector, Kiki-Jiki, and Disciple)?

It's really a difference of deck types; Hulk Flash is a very fast combo deck with lots of disruption but due to the pacts is kind of a one shot deal, Rector Flash is more control oriented with a combo finish.  Rector Flash is kinda like Gifts and Hulk Flash is more like Belcher with a ton of disruption.

[Purple Hat]

I think that the thought process may go along the lines of "I normally go off with Flash, but can go off without it through drawing a Bargain or Will," which gives your deck a Plan B (a Plan B is what Hulk Flash will never have).  However, I prefer Hulk Flash because it wins immediately, and as this report pretty clearly shows, that's a definite factor.  As to the Disciple kill, it just takes too many slots.

I think the times that this report shows rector getting bargain and not winning are clear examples of player error based on inexperience rather than a flaw in the deck.

[Implacable]

I think that the thought process may go along the lines of "I normally go off with Flash, but can go off without it through drawing a Bargain or Will," which gives your deck a Plan B (a Plan B is what Hulk Flash will never have).  However, I prefer Hulk Flash because it wins immediately, and as this report pretty clearly shows, that's a definite factor.  As to the Disciple kill, it just takes too many slots.

I think the times that this report shows rector getting bargain and not winning are clear examples of player error based on inexperience rather than a flaw in the deck.

Actually, although I'm tempted to agree (based on the evident inexperience of the player), I think that this problem is not so easily explained.  If you are tapped out, it is difficult to win with Bargain on the turn that it comes into play.  That's just the plain and simple truth.  If your opponent either wins or locks you down in the 'Open Turn', you lose.  That's definitely a factor that Flash Rector players have to take into account.  Additionally, winning immediately lets you play both Pacts, which are extremely strong.

[Nehptis]

It's really a difference of deck types; Hulk Flash is a very fast combo deck with lots of disruption but due to the pacts is kind of a one shot deal, Rector Flash is more control oriented with a combo finish.  Rector Flash is kinda like Gifts and Hulk Flash is more like Belcher with a ton of disruption.

How is Rector/Flash like Gifts?  4 FOW, 2-4 Duress and Merchant Scrolls do not make a deck controllish.  Gifts and Oath are control combo decks.  Rector/Flash is simply a poor choice for exploiting the brokeness that is Flash.  Hulk/Flash is far superior.  The choices are work to get Rector in hand, then resolve Bargain and then have a good chance of winning now or next turn vs. Pacting for Hulk, resolving Flash and going off behind FOW and/or PoN.  When someone resolves Bargain with an ify board I make them play it out.  When someone resolves Hulk, it's enter scoop phase.  Hulk/Flash is like Belcher on steroids wearing a condom.  It's fast, all in, with protection galore.

[Purple Hat]

I think that the thought process may go along the lines of "I normally go off with Flash, but can go off without it through drawing a Bargain or Will," which gives your deck a Plan B (a Plan B is what Hulk Flash will never have).  However, I prefer Hulk Flash because it wins immediately, and as this report pretty clearly shows, that's a definite factor.  As to the Disciple kill, it just takes too many slots.

I think the times that this report shows rector getting bargain and not winning are clear examples of player error based on inexperience rather than a flaw in the deck.

Actually, although I'm tempted to agree (based on the evident inexperience of the player), I think that this problem is not so easily explained.  If you are tapped out, it is difficult to win with Bargain on the turn that it comes into play.  That's just the plain and simple truth.  If your opponent either wins or locks you down in the 'Open Turn', you lose.  That's definitely a factor that Flash Rector players have to take into account.  Additionally, winning immediately lets you play both Pacts, which are extremely strong.

it's true I guess in theory, but anything your opponent does that you don't like you can draw 19 cards in response.  if he still wins....shrug

[Meeee]

It's really a difference of deck types; Hulk Flash is a very fast combo deck with lots of disruption but due to the pacts is kind of a one shot deal, Rector Flash is more control oriented with a combo finish.  Rector Flash is kinda like Gifts and Hulk Flash is more like Belcher with a ton of disruption.

How is Rector/Flash like Gifts?  4 FOW, 2-4 Duress and Merchant Scrolls do not make a deck controllish.  Gifts and Oath are control combo decks.  Rector/Flash is simply a poor choice for exploiting the brokeness that is Flash.  Hulk/Flash is far superior.  The choices are work to get Rector in hand, then resolve Bargain and then have a good chance of winning now or next turn vs. Pacting for Hulk, resolving Flash and going off behind FOW and/or PoN.  When someone resolves Bargain with an ify board I make them play it out.  When someone resolves Hulk, it's enter scoop phase.  Hulk/Flash is like Belcher on steroids wearing a condom.  It's fast, all in, with protection galore.

I compare Rector Flash to Gifts because it is capable of playing for the long game.  For instance the version probasco ran had Therapy Duress and FOW if I rember correctly.  Hulk Flash on the other hand is straight control and has very little advatage for playing the long game since several of its cards are dead right up until you win (i.e. pacts, hulk, and win conditions).  It's definitly doesnt havea as strong a game as Gifts but most of its cards remain functional throughout the game (exculding bargain if you at low life but thats why it runs profusion).

[Ripcord728]

Hulk into the Sliver plan is better than Rector into the Bargain plan.  Here's why:

1) The deck no longer loses to graveyard hate.

While the ability to hardcast Rector (and then open up the possibility of Cabal Therapy) is strong, it does not justify the fact that Flash Rector is seriously jeopardized by Crypts and Leylines, sideboard cards that are EXTREMELY popular in light of Ichorid and other graveyard-based decks.

***

Hulk into the Sliver plan is better than Hulk into Guide/Feeder/Kiki/Snatcher plan.  Here's why:

1) The deck no longer loses to graveyard hate. (See above.)

2) You frequently find yourself unable to go off with Flash Hulk due to having a Kiki or other combo peice in hand at the time of casting Flash.  This problem can be thwarted by running 4 Virulent Sliver and 2 Heart Sliver.  That way, you can combo off even if you do have a combo peice in hand.

Finally, when attacking with Slivers, I've found that blockers are almost never a problem.  The combo is so quick that even the most creature-based deck in the format does not have time to set up a defense adequate to block THREE of the 5 attacking Slivers (as would be necessary to prevent 10 poison counters from passing through.)

***

Lastly, does anybody find that Pact of Negation and Misdirection aren't very helpful unless facing countermagic?  Other disruption (hand disruption, e.g. Duress/Therapy or artifact Stax peices, e.g. Chalice on Two) should be given more slots to combat in my opinion.

[Implacable]

In regard to the Sliver plan, I would point out that almost every sideboard runs Leyline of the Void, which hoses the Sliver plan just as well as it hoses the Kiki plan.  I would also point out that it takes one more slot and, if you draw Heart Sliver, takes two turns to kill.

In regard to the use of Pact of Negation and Misdirection, I would point out that each counterspell in the deck has a specific purpose.  The best counterspell, Force of Will, is typically used to fend off your opponent; in other words, it is used defensively.  Pact of Negation is used to punch through a counter-wall; in other words, offensively.  Misdirection has the combined use of being able to punch through a counterwall and being an enormous deterent to the play currently in vogue: Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral Recall.

[Ripcord728]

1) How does Leyline of the Void foil the Sliver plan?

2) Reread my above post.  You run TWO Heart Sliver to solve the problem of having one in hand, thus slowing the win down a turn.  (The odds of having both are extremely low.)

[Methuselahn]

1) How does Leyline of the Void foil the Sliver plan?

Hulk has to go to the graveyard to fetch creatures.  Leyline is a replacement effect that sends the cards RFG instead.

[twault]

*Off topic*

What is this "sliver plan" that has been mentioned?

Is it just the 2 Heart Slivers & 4 Virulent Slivers?

Does the poison-1 ability stack or something?

I was under the impression that it did not.

If not, you'd have to attack for 2 turns, with all 5 getting through. Not exactly what I'd call better than infinite hasted Karmic Guides.

I'm totally failing to see how this combo works...

[Meeee]

The poisonous ability stacks so 3 slivers getting through with 4 copies of posionous 1 each would give the oponnent 12 posoin counters thus killing them.

[Ripcord728]

I was unaware Leyline foils Hulk from activating.  Would Crypt function equally well?  Either way, this decreases the value of the deck considerably in my mind.  Any combo deck that rolls over to graveyard hate (especially FREE graveyard hate) can't be thought of as amazing.

[A.-1.]

You can pop Tormod's Crypt after Hulk hits the graveyard with his comes into play ability on the stack and stop the ability from triggering.

The deck does not "roll over" to graveyard hate. Pre- and post-board many Flash decks run multiple bounce spells.

[Zherbus]

Locking this. Feel free to open a related topic, but this has taken a turn towards being a rules-forum thread.