unpowered Fish

[Serenity]

Hi guys,
first of all please excuse my bad English, I´am from Germany.
This tread is about the role of unpowered fish decks in the actual vintage metagame.
As a proud unpowered fish player I would like to recreate unpowered UWB-fish, after my old list was bashed because of the restriction of brainstorm. I have played UW-fish for a while,but that isn´t the kind of fish decks I like.
After thinking about playing UR or URBana-fish I saw a list that has awaken my interest.
This was the list of Eric Campusano. It was basically a URBana-fish deck, with white instead of red.
I like the list a lot and tried to build a unpowered list. This is what I came up with:

UWB-Fish

Lands(20):
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Tundra (one will be a Underground Sea as soon as I get it)
2x Underground Sea
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Swamp

Creatures(17):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Dark Confidant
3x Jötun Grunt
3x Icatian Javelineers
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours

Spells(23):
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Stifle
3x Null Rod
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
2x Extirpate

Sideboard(15):
2x Extirpate
3x Planar Void
3x Annul
2x Energy Flux
3x Umezawas Jitte
2x Trickbind

The focus of the deck is heaviely mana disruption. Because of that Daze and Cursecatcher get both very bad for your opponent. The Extirpates are in the Deck to remove some non basic lands of your opponent or to remove combo pieces against combo decks. I think the list is ok until now but I think I will get in trouble with Oath or Workshop-Aggro Decks. Also I miss the power of Meddling Mage after duressing your opponent. I would like to fit in some Meddling Mages because they get better with all the Duress and Extirpates effects.

What do you think about the Deck? Do you think this list is ok? What would you change? How should I fit in the missing Meddling Mages? Any Sideboard options?

Please comment...

So far....
-Serenity-

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Hallo
Unpowered Deck Strategies usually go into the imrovement forum. It might be moved by a mod.

On your deck:

I don't think you really need meddling mage at the moment, because many decks are running a lot of 1ofs.
One cabal therapy is just as strong after duress and extirpate. And you can easily sac a cursecatcher/javelineer for the flashback if you think your opponent slowly makes his way out of your soft lock (is slowly building up mana.)
With your mana denial plan, I strongly encourage playing 4 null rod (see the discussion on the UGB fish thread.) Now, as in Germany there are less proxy tourneys, there might be a lot of decks not running full power, but the good decks still do (i.e. the ones that usually win tourneys.) Your dazes and cursecatchers also get a lot better if you have rod out.
some Sower of temptaion might go into the Side, to steal tarmos, other fish, fatties. I think it's just as good (or better) than jitte.
Against combo, The 3 stifles maindeck (along with your whole deck...) are probably enough so that you don't need the trickbinds. Also, combo often brings negators/goyfs after Boarding. (Again: Sower of temptation or threads of disloyality might be good.) Free up some space here against your problem matchups. (Oath, Workshop maybe?) Suggestions: Ronom unicorn or seal of cleansing.
The energy fluxes should be kataki's in my opinion. They rock. Really do.
With javelineers, grunts, cursecatchers 4 extirpate and planar void, I think you should be able to combat ichorid. that's good. But planar void kinda suck with grunts, so I'd probably replace them.
But with all those ideas for the sideboard: Stay focused (play 3 and 4ofs.) you did that well in my opinion. choose the best strategies (like annul for example, it's good against both your problem matchups) that ideally work against different archetypes.
My suggestion for the SB:
2 extirpate
2 faerie macabre (4 grave hate)
3 annul
1 ronom unicorn/seal of cleansing(4 oath hate)
3 kataki(7-8 artifact hate)
3 sower of temptation (3 general creature hate: Combo g2, fish, oath, tinker.)
1 open slot. Test and decide, which of those numbers up there you want to improve.

[Serenity]

Ok, thank you for your help.

I have edited the list. thats what I came up with:

UWB-Fish

Lands(20):
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Scrubland
1x Island
1x Swamp

Creatures(17):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Dark Confidant
3x Jötun Grunt
3x Icatian Javelineers
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours

Spells(23):
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Stifle
3x Null Rod
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Extirpate

Sideboard(15):
2x Extirpate
2x Faerie Macabre
3x Annul
2x Seal of Cleansing
3x Kataki War´s Wage
3x Threads of Disloyality/Jitte ???

[nero angelo]

My  / list... Unpowered, ofcourse. You can mix and match if you really like  ... ^^

4 Meddling Mage
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Grimoire Thief / True Believer
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Jotun Grunt

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spellsnare
2 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wipe Away

3 Null Rod

4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Hollowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Aven Mindscensor
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth
3 Serenity


Note:

Low land count because:

-Low Casting Costs of creatures. Curves around 2.
-Sage of Epityr. Nets you a land.
-Ninja of the Deep Hours. Card Advantage
-Virtually Low/Free Counters and Removals (w/ the exception of Wipe Away.)
-Low/Free Denials/Tempo (Null Rod, Wastes & Strip.)


**Still not tested vs Bomberman and Control Slaver though...

[Serenity]

Hi,
I have tested the deck on a tournament last weekend.
And I get crushed because the meta was flooded with Fish and Stax Decks.
Now my question is how would you play this deck in the mentioned meta?
I´am thinking about cutting black, but like I have already told you this isn´t the kind of deck I like...
Maybe I have to cut the one drops and Ninjas to fit in some Meddling Mages and Katakis, and even the 4th sword and maybe a Darkblast? But the Ninjas are very cool and lead to much cardadvantage....
Any suggestions?

So far..
Serenity

[nero angelo]

Hi Serenity!

Anyways, to combat Staxx, you need to achieve the following:

TEMPO.

To achieve it, you need:

Meddling Mage - First to be named, usually, Tangle Wire.
Force of Will - If you can't name a Wire, counter it.
Swords to Plowshares - Goblin Welder should NOT get active.
Wasteland - nothing to explain.
Daze - Workshops CAN'T pay for Daze. ^^
Stifle - whatever you can.
Null Rod - slows everyone but you. ^^

Don't worry too much about Smokestack. ^^


Maindeck Kataki (on my build) usually lightens the match.


Against Fish:

The one who unleahes Grunt and draws via Ninja usually wins.

Save StP for opponent's Grunt. ^^

Postboard:

Against Staxx: Serenity, Energy Flux should do just fine.

Against Fish: Umezawa's Jitte.

====

Personally, I like Ninjas. Vintage is a meta that usually has no blockers, and Ninjas fit in nicely to fetch you a card per turn.

I don't like Black in Fish that much, maybe except for Extirpate and Dark Confidant, but that's it.

[Serenity]

hey nero angelo thanks for your help.

Your tips are pretty cool, even if most of them aren't new for me...
But to name tangle wire against workshop is pretty cool^^

And please don't get me wrong I love the Ninjas...But the problem is that the one drops aren't that good in the late game and at the tourney I have just drawn Ninjas in the early game and one drops in the late game... so maybe it was just not my day^^

Cutting black is something that I'm struggling with...I like the Confis and the Extirpates and the discard effects are even pretty cool. Also you've got more sideboard options.

The problem is just that I feel like I have to include the Meddling Mages in the deck, but I just don't know what to cut. I'm also not sure about the javelineer slots should the maybe be sage of epityr? The sages can be pitched for force, let you stack your deck, help with the confidants and can even be reused by the ninjas. Or should I even include vanillas like Isamaru or Savannah Lion?

I've tinkered with the idea of cutting one drops and ninjas and putting in meddling mages and some card draw like ponder or brainstorm, so that I would end up with something like this:

Creatures(13):
4x Dark Confidant
3x Meddling Mage
3x Kataki
3x Jötun Grunt

Spells(27):
4x Force of Will
2x Extirpate
4x Daze
3x Duress
2x Thought Seize
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Stifle
4x Null Rod
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder

Lands(20):
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains

But like you have already mentioned, my problem is that I have to be more aggressive and this list is a step in the wrong direction...

So my question is would you include Meddling Mages and if yes, what would you cut, and what would you do with the javelineer slots?


Thank you for your help in advance

so far...

Serenity

[nero angelo]

^

I'd really cut black. Why?

If you are splashing Black for:

Confidant - We have Ninjas, Brainstorms, Ponders (Also, I use Sage of Epityrs) and to some proxy extent, Ancestral Recall

Extripate - Why? Ichorid? We have Jotun Grunt and Swords. Welder? Kill Welder.

Discard Effects - We have: Force of Will, Daze, Wastelands and Stripmine. Plus, Null Rod and Swords to Plowshares. We have enough answers.

Storm - Stifle. Meddling Mage naming Yawgmoth's Will. Postboard, Jitte Lifegain will make them miserable.


The Javelineer in my deck was cut to be replaced by Stormscape Apprentice so I would not have to Swords a Fattie.
Killing Welder/Confidant will be dealt with using Swords to Plowshares. (And Spellsnare in case of Confidants.)

Please do not use Vanilla ones. I personally believe they are really outdated. Savannah Lions and Isamaru, were good, but they don't have anything to help you. 2 damage clocks aren't worth to be called clocks, IMO.


About Tanglewire:

Tanglewire must be prevented. It's the single dominant card in staxx that ensures you don't play anything.

Wire + Spheres = you can't FoW easily.
Early Wire = Staxx having more permanents than you. Smokestack WILL own you.
Multiple Wires + other lock effects = Staxx really will pwn you.

I said single dominant card because Trinisphere is restricted. But for me, those 2 cards are the main threat of Staxx, followed by Goblin Welder and to some extent, Memory Jar..

Prevent those cards, and you have a very good matchup against Staxx.

Null Rod will stop Moxen, Triskellion, Karn, to some extent, Metalworker.

PS:

I'm experimenting a build that has maindeck True Believer, since I don't use Ancestrall Recall. Prevents Mindslaver in slaving me, prevents storm from killing me, prevents Duress + Hymn from stripping my hand, prevents Grindstone from grinding my library. ^^

Basically, it protects you from most top tier decks, aside fro Bomberman, which we have Null Rods and Stifle (on Trinket Mages, ofcourse.).

[Serenity]

hey,

true believer mainboard...

hm sounds interesting.
Would you please be so kind and post a list of yours with true believers in the main?

Like I have already said, I'm thinking about cutting black, but I like the black cards....
I'm still struggling with this^^

so far
serenity

[nero angelo]

Hi again!

here's my current list.

True Believer simply "swaps" in some other critter.

4 Meddling Mage
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Grimoire Thief / True Believer
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Jotun Grunt

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spellsnare / 2 Spellsnare, +1 True Believer
2 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wipe Away

3 Null Rod

4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Hollowed Fountain (Needed if True Believers are on the deck, since they cost  )
2 Island
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Aven Mindscensor
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth
3 Serenity / 2 Serenity, 1 Swords to Plowshares


Note:

Low land count because:

-Low Casting Costs of creatures. Curves around 2.
-Sage of Epityr. Nets you a land.
-Ninja of the Deep Hours. Card Advantage
-Virtually Low/Free Counters and Removals (w/ the exception of Wipe Away.)
-Low/Free Denials/Tempo (Null Rod, Wastes & Strip.)


So far, it does good to Staxx (unpowered, though), and Painters.

It does "fairly" in Oath, fairly because it is one of our worst matchup.

Does well in Affinity. (Null Rod + Kataki = gg)

Does kinda good in Mono  , unless Tinker + Sundering Titan rips lands apart. >.<

[Volrath666]

Against which deck do you sideboard aven mindsensor??

[Serenity]

@ Benny

The Mindcensor is against Combo alà TPS I think.

so far..

Serenity

[nero angelo]

Sorry for the super late reply. Been busy, graduation is nearing.

Anyways, yes, Mindscensor is for Combo decks who likes to search.

Plus, it is a good addition now that Tezzeret is here. ^^