Minion Reflector and Metathran Aerostat

[A.-1.]

Minion Reflector:
Whenever a nontoken creature comes into play under your control, you may pay  . If you do, put a token into play that's a copy of that creature. That token has haste and "At end of turn, sacrifice this permanent."

Metathran Aerostat:
  : You may put a creature card with converted mana cost X from your hand into play. If you do, return Metathran Aerostat to its owner's hand.



This is just to clarify. Player A has Minion Reflector in play with Metathran Aerostat and another creature in hand. Can Player A play the Aerostat and then make an arbitrarily large number of hasty Aerostat tokens? We assumed that this worked only if the player had at least one creature in hand.

[Clariax]

First off, we don't really deal with "Type 4" here, but we can safely assume for the situation you're asking about the player has an arbitrarily large amount of mana, and that there's a Rule of Law in play.  That aside, I'm not sure what plays the player is attempting to make to yield the hoped-for result, so can't really comment on whether it works or not.  Please clarify what the player is trying to do, not what result he's hoping to achieve.

[Godder]

I'm going out on a limb here, but, pretending that the creature card in hand is Flying Men, I think his plan is as follows:

1. Put Metathran Aerostat's activated ability on the stack lots, a million or so times with X=CMC of Aerostat and once with X=CMC of Flying Men, each in respone to the last.
2. Using LIFO, resolve the last use of the ability, which puts Flying Men into play and returns Aerostat to his hand. Minion Reflector triggers.
3. The triggered ability is resolved, putting a hasty token copy of Flying Men into play.
4. Resolve the rest of Metathran Aerostat's activated abilities, each time putting Aerostat back into play, returning it to your hand and triggering Minion Reflector, which makes a hasty token copy of Metathran Aerostat for each use of the ability.

5. If that works, attack everyone with the tokens and win.

[A.-1.]

Ahh yes I should have mentioned what Player A was trying to do, not what they were hoping for. And yes Player A has an arbitrarily large amount of mana, and there is a Rule of Law in play.

We used Aerostat's ability in the manner that Godder explained.

[Clariax]

This will not work.  The "return Metathran Aerostat to its owner's hand" refers specifically to the Metathran Aerostat whose ability was activated.  Even though it's always the same card, once it changes zones it's an entirely new object.  So the first ability resolving will return the Aerostat to its owners hand, but any subsequent resolutions will not since the specific Aerostat that needs to be returned is already gone.

[Mr. Type 4]

The Aerostat only gets returned to hand when resolving the first ability IF you actually put a creature into play.   If you dont play a flying Man, it will continue to try to resolve abilities until you actually put something into play.  When you do it will send the Aerostat back to hand and you can replay it whenever your X=4 ability resolves.  This will NOT return it back to hand.

If you want, you can do your Aerostats one at a time, so you get a token copy for each creature in hand.  You will not be able to make infinite Aerostat tokens without something else that completes the combo - Arcanis the Omnipotent would work. 

[A.-1.]

It is unfortunate that it requires a third creature, like Arcanis, but Type 4 certainly isn't lacking in 2-card combos. We lost an illegal 2-card combo and gained a 3-card one. Thank you Aaron and Paul for clearing that up.

[Clariax]

If you want, you can do your Aerostats one at a time, so you get a token copy for each creature in hand.  You will not be able to make infinite Aerostat tokens without something else that completes the combo - Arcanis the Omnipotent would work. 

Again, this simply mentions a result and not how the result is reached, so it's possible I'm missing something here, but as far as I'm seeing it, adding in Arcanis still will not allow you to generate infinite Aerostat tokens.  Because of Arcanis's own return ability you could generate many Arcanis tokens by activating Aerostat with X=6 many times and after each resolution put Arcanis back in hand via its own ability(though the tokens are still legendary so you'll never have multiple in play at once).  But once the original Aerostat leaves play, any subsequent instances of its ability resolving will not return it to your hand because it's no longer there to be returned.  Any Aerostat now in play is a different object, not referred to by the ability from the first Aerostat.

[A.-1.]

I thought I understood what Paul was trying to get at.

Something like [Hoverguard Sweepers  Flying When Hoverguard Sweepers comes into play, you may return up to two target creatures to their owners' hands.] allows the player with Reflector and Aerostat to create infinite Hoverguard tokens. The creature with the built in bounce ability cannot be legendary. Arcanis was just an example. The end result though is that Aerostat always ends up in the player's hand and cannot remain in play.

[Harlequin]

Aerostat in play, Arcanis in hand, infinite mana.

~ Start

Anounce:
Activate Aerostat X = 4, then Activate Aerostat X = 6

Resolve Stack:
-- The X=6 resolves > put Arcanis into play, return Aroestat to your hand.
>> Trigger Minon Reflector for Arcanis > choose not to copy
-- The X=4 resolves > put Arostat into play, the return part of the card fails.
>> Trigger Minon Reflector for Aerostat > Choose to pay, create aerostat token
~ Stack Empty

Anounce:
Activate Arcanis return to hand

Resolve Stack:
-- Return resolves, arcanis is in hand.

~ Repeat from start.

That uses no spells, and makes infinite copies of Aerostat (not Arcanis).  No Arcanis Legend killing, no "infinite" activations of one Aerostat.

[Godder]

With infinite Arcanis tokens, he can draw his deck, 3 cards at a time, which should be enough. However, I think you can do it, if you stack it right, and already have Minion Reflector and Aerostat in play:

Play the ability twice, once for X=6 and once for X=4. Arcanis comes into play, triggers Reflector, and is then returned to hand by his own ability before the token comes into play to avoid the Legend Rule. Aerostat is then put into play, triggers a token, but nothing is returned to hand. Use the Arcanis token's return to hand ability, which then RFG's it. Repeat as desired, since you now have an Aerostat token and Arcanis in hand for each iteration. Feel free to draw many cards with the hasty Arcanis tokens while you're at it.

Edit: What Harlequin said, but I note that you can make Arcanis tokens and draw cards if you wish, as long as you stack it right and use the Arcanis token's ability to return it to hand, which would then RFG it.

[Mr. Type 4]

With infinite Arcanis tokens, he can draw his deck, 3 cards at a time, which should be enough.

You cant make Arcanis tokens or draw your whole deck, as Arcanis is Legendary.  IF you want to draw your whole deck, combo with Sneak Attack.

[Godder]

With infinite Arcanis tokens, he can draw his deck, 3 cards at a time, which should be enough.

You cant make Arcanis tokens or draw your whole deck, as Arcanis is Legendary.  IF you want to draw your whole deck, combo with Sneak Attack.

You can make the tokens, you just have to stack the return to hand ability properly i.e. each time you put Arcanis into play and trigger the Reflector, you return Arcanis in response. Then you can use the hasty token's draw-three-cards ability, followed by using the token's return-to-hand ability, which RFGs it.

[Mr. Type 4]

yeah, I just thought of that and came back to see you'd already responded.  I had to re-read Minion reflector to figure out when it triggered, and it seems to trigger after the Arcanis is already in play. 

Neat.