[Single Card Discussion] Magus of the Unseen

[Lurker101]

Is it just me or does this seem like the ultimate answer to time vault for fish? Not only do you gain control of it until end of turn but you get to untap it too. So you can untap it, take an extra turn steal it during your extra turn rinse and repeat all while you are beating down with Goyfs and such. I'm not a very experienced Fish player but here's a proposed decklist.
//Lands:20
4 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Swamp

//Creatures:22
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vexing Shusher
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
3 Magus of the Unseen

//Other Spells: 18
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Stifle
2 Seal of Primordium
4 Force of Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sideboard: 15
4 Yixlid Jailer (Ichorid)
2 Curfew (Oath, Inkwell)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid)
2 Seal of Primordium (Oath, Remora)
2 Echoing Truth
3 Chalice of the Void

This deck is just to illustrate what a magus deck might look like. You wouldn't want to run rod in case you actually get to steal a vault. Although I think Magus would most likely prevent the opponent from playing Vault, especially if you have 1U untapped, until they find an answer. The Pithing Needles are there just in case you have to deal with Bazaars, Welders, or if a time vault might get through without magus out. Dreadnought is there to foil the second win condition most vault decks pack in Inkwell Leviathan. They also end the game quicker. Trinket Mage fetches Dreadnoughts, Needles, and Moxen and Vexing Shusher stops your spells from being countered. This deck is designed mainly to just wreck Tezz and other key/vault decks. It should have decent matchups against other tier decks too.

Any thoughts on the card or the deck in general?

EDIT: Added Ancestral, Walk, and Tutors.

[Troy_Costisick]

That's a nice find, but would it be good against anything besides Key/Vault?  If so, what decks would it really help against?  If not, would it be worth the 4 spots in the SB?

[urweak]

That's a nice find, but would it be good against anything besides Key/Vault?  If so, what decks would it really help against?  If not, would it be worth the 4 spots in the SB?

Shes ok, you could steal stuff off the stax player to sac. Steal Welder targets. If people still played DSC you could steal that. Im sure theres other uses I just cant think of them right now. So with that said, i dont know if it really is something you would run main deck.

[Lurker101]

I think at least sideboard space could be devoted to it if it's not maindecked for sure. So many decks are using that kill condition that I may put it on par with Yixlid Jailer in how it hoses Vault/Key like Jailer hoses Dredge. If Magus is in play with 1U untapped you would be stupid to play time vault and if vault is already in play without Tezz or Key it should be good game. The card is basically a must counter. It would also be good against Workshop Aggro and welder decks which seems to be getting slightly more popular and you could always steal some random artifact mana acceleration if you need mana or are missing on color mana (for casting a Tarmo or making something uncounterable with Shusher) but that is a pretty weak use. Admittedly Magus was much better before the printing of Inkwell Leviathan though. The deck I have designed around it is mainly to beat up on anything using Vault-Key but I think it could contend with other decks as well.

[MEATROCKET]

So if you're playing Magus as an answer to Vault, then you're obviously not playing Null Rod.  The Vault player will think of Magus as simply a Null Rod with legs - I won't assemble the combo until I bounce/kill your dude.  Null Rod at least slows them down by cutting off mana artifacts and Top.

Magus is a cute trick which can catch a Tezz player who drops an early Vault off guard, but I can't see it being better than Null Rod.  It seems like it could destroy a Stacks deck, but I'd rather have it be a bounce spell or something less narrow.

@ Lurker

I think at least sideboard space could be devoted to it if it's not maindecked for sure. So many decks are using that kill condition that I may put it on par with Yixlid Jailer in how it hoses Vault/Key like Jailer hoses Dredge. If Magus is in play with 1U untapped you would be stupid to play time vault and if vault is already in play without Tezz or Key it should be good game. The card is basically a must counter.

Magus does not hose Vault like Jailer hoses dredge.  Not even close.  Jailer shuts down dredge and flashback which makes it much more difficult for them to get any answer.  Come to think of it, Null Rod is much more comparable to Jailer since Rod has an immediate impact on the board and seriously slows down a Drain deck (like Jailer does to dredge).

I'd much rather have Magus resolve than Null Rod since a single bounce spell answers both while Magus is not at all disruptive like Rod.

[smasher]

At 2 colorless mana null rod is easier to cast and works immediately. There is no point in putting in a creature to fill a null rod roll when the creature requires tap to use. You will never want to attack with it. Stealing big artifact creatures would have been good prior to the printing Inkwell. His best use as stated already would be versus workshop decks. His second best use would be trading with dark confidant, gorilla shaman, and goblin welder.

[Beralt]

Summoning Sickness means it is sloooow. Admittedly if it comes online vs Vault it wins you the game.  Course you could fool around completey and run something ridiculous like Donate along with it so you could hand over your own Time Vault.  Transmute Artifact/Tinker into Time Vault - Puca's Mischief/Legerdemain/Donate to give it to them and Magus takes it on home. Sounds a bit casual but you never know.

[Lurker101]

So if you're playing Magus as an answer to Vault, then you're obviously not playing Null Rod.  The Vault player will think of Magus as simply a Null Rod with legs - I won't assemble the combo until I bounce/kill your dude.  Null Rod at least slows them down by cutting off mana artifacts and Top.

Magus is a cute trick which can catch a Tezz player who drops an early Vault off guard, but I can't see it being better than Null Rod.  It seems like it could destroy a Stacks deck, but I'd rather have it be a bounce spell or something less narrow.

@ Lurker

I think at least sideboard space could be devoted to it if it's not maindecked for sure. So many decks are using that kill condition that I may put it on par with Yixlid Jailer in how it hoses Vault/Key like Jailer hoses Dredge. If Magus is in play with 1U untapped you would be stupid to play time vault and if vault is already in play without Tezz or Key it should be good game. The card is basically a must counter.

Magus does not hose Vault like Jailer hoses dredge.  Not even close.  Jailer shuts down dredge and flashback which makes it much more difficult for them to get any answer.  Come to think of it, Null Rod is much more comparable to Jailer since Rod has an immediate impact on the board and seriously slows down a Drain deck (like Jailer does to dredge).

I'd much rather have Magus resolve than Null Rod since a single bounce spell answers both while Magus is not at all disruptive like Rod.

I guess I went overboard with the Jailer comparison but for a fish deck that is looking for an alternate to rod in this time vault/key meta she can be really good she also pitches to force if you don't need her. I was just trying to push for innovation. I think the card is playable and I've already stated why. Maybe she could work in a fish deck that packs rod maindeck and Magus in the board to further disrupt vault/key if they bounce or destroy rod. I'll test out the deck later and see how it plays out.
@ Beralt
Yeah summoning sickness is a factor but there's a few good utility creatures that suffer from summoning sickness and still get heavy play (Goblin Welder comes to mind). I realize that cards like Master Transmuter and Goblin Welder can come down faster although Magus is still only a two drop.

[MEATROCKET]

I was just trying to push for innovation.

I understand that, but I really think Magus is just a step backwards.  The problem is that this guy makes it to where you don't want to play Null Rod, but Rod is probably your best card against Vault.  Which means you are going to play a fish deck meant to beat Tezz but with no Rod.  Doesn't sound so hot.  In the Tezz matchup, I can't see this guy being any better than a Mons's Goblin Raiders.

[dawgie]

I was able to use this once during a tournament. I sideboarded this in because I was playing against Oath who had Darksteel Collossus in the deck.

From playtesting results though, its not a phenomenal card. Its more like of a surprise card off the SB.

[vassago]

I was just trying to push for innovation.

I understand that, but I really think Magus is just a step backwards.  The problem is that this guy makes it to where you don't want to play Null Rod, but Rod is probably your best card against Vault.  Which means you are going to play a fish deck meant to beat Tezz but with no Rod.  Doesn't sound so hot.  In the Tezz matchup, I can't see this guy being any better than a Mons's Goblin Raiders.

Actually, MEATBAG, Mon's Goblin Raiders would be much better. Costs one, beats starting on turn two. You would be sooooo lucky if you could drop two of them on turn one.   =oD

[oneofchaos]

One of the greatest problem with magus of the unseen is that as Paul said in the other thread, if you are playing against fish you will be bringing in fish hate.  Magus dies to literally every removal spell ever printed for the most part.  Reb/Pyro/Darkblast/Lava Dart/Pyroclasm/Firespout/etc.  Now sowering/threadsing the magus is also an option.  Magus can't attack because then you can't use the ability.  It also costs 4 mana to steal a time vault and you can't even do it the turn it comes into play.  Needless to say, people will react to magus in the same manner as time vault, it must be removed before the infinite turn loop begins.  The worst part is that magus is a null rod that does not shut down mana/tops/keys/engineered explosives etc.  All it is a two mana creature that can never go sideways.

[Guli]

I honestly don't see what is to discuss, it is not a new card. The people who used it in the past know that this magus can be strong against shop and tinker/dc. He can also steal some random artifact mana.

If you design a deck that has a clear weak match against shop and if you know there is going to be shop around, then go for it. Being able to target that 1x Time Vault in their deck is not relevant but a nice bonus.

[Tempus]

What about playing him in the SB for the mirror in Tez?

[brianpk80]

The ideal outcome of Magus stealing Time Vault is exciting in theory but would be difficult to achieve in practice against a competent player.  If it ever were to occur, it would likely require the use of AEther Vial, since without the surprise factor, an opponent wouldn't cast their Time Vault w. her sitting on the table.  If you hold Magus in your hand hoping that an opponent will hardcast Time Vault, but not play Voltaic Key on the same turn, in order to steal the vault, you have to resolve Magus and sit through another turn where the plans could be upended again by the opponent either finding the Key/Tez or bouncing/destroying her.  It's very conditional and once the opponent sees Magus, they will never hardcast a Time Vault to simply sit on the table doing nothing (and they probably shouldn't be doing that in the first place now...). 

Magus was considerably more useful when Darksteel Colossus was in vogue.  Today however, even in a Vial build, it's difficult to justify including a 1/1 with a more narrow utility than Qasali Pridemage. 

[Beralt]

Vial is an Excellent option for utilizing it - and it seems to bring back older fish roots. 

Additionally if your playing an Blue Workshop (something with Shops, Drains, Ancestral, Magus of the Unseen, Tinker, Forces, Transmute, Legerdemain, Mindlock Orb) you could use something like Thousand-Year Elixir for instant usage of the Magus - but again I am sounding very standardish in my card evaluation.  For Thousand-Year Elixir to be vible you would need additional Tappable creatures like Master Transmuter & Goblin Welder.

[Mantis]

Actually this card has been in the back of my and many other players mind for years. That said, it never got universally adopted so I don't exactly think this card is hot stuff. It might be SB material or it can shine if the metagame shifts even towards more artifacts. Right now, I think Magus of the Unseen is vastly inferior to Qasali Pridemage, really the only thing it has going for it is that it's blue instead of GW. The printing of Inkwell Leviathan kind of hurts. Still it's always on the back of my mind as I predict this card will shine at some point.

[Guli]

Time vault is not the problem. Getting your null rod or qasali in play in time without being disrupted is the problem. We use Vial, TeeG or Shusher in order to do this. I have played all three of them with success. Recently a the card Xantid Swarm got in my visor. I rather discuss Xantid Swarm than Magus in the current meta.

Vial is good but in vintage it gets the criticism that it gets on line a turn too late (Vial@2 is critical after that vial-fish has strong winning chances). While I don't agree on this entirely it does happen sometimes that indeed the combo player walks over you. So sure, no vial right now, especially with null rod as the alternative. (people assume that null rod and vial can not be played in 1 deck, agreed it is very contradictory but it is legal)

So Xantid Swarm is also 1 mana, it is green, a friendly color if you want to play teegs, qasali, noble. (You surely want to play exalted making the Xantid Swarm more useful in the skies in tie break situations on the ground.)

After some testings i discovered that against any blue deck the swarm takes the game because the effect is the same as vial when you play against mana drain/force. I have also sadistically pounded away their life with a single


My point here is that instead of vial the Xantid Swarm can be used to get your lock components in the game and proceed to a easy victory. Noble/Hierarch are naturally good (thank god) against shop. Also a 0-1 body is useful when you are blocking ichorid or the blue 1/1 flier they run. You don't want their dudes to die but when yours do they lose the bridges. You can use stuff like teeg, thorn, glowrider to disrupt their win condition.

I know how powerful the combination of teeg, aven, canonist, glowrider, null rod, etc can be. The problem was that when you drop vial turn 1 you could still not play a 2cc lock component (teeg,canonist,null rod, thorn) without risking getting drained. So you had to wait until next turn. This issue is solved by Xantid Swarm. The downside? Instead I got another positive note, he doesn't get shut down by null rod so you can actually run null rod with vial effects.

If this was a bit off topic my apologizes, but i really don't think that magus of the unseen will cut it. And the target archetype is drain/tfk/vault/tezz/whatever we call it these days it has many names. And against drains the key is to nullify their drains (vial -> Xantid Swarm)to get your nullifier in the game (null rod).

Example list (for illustration)

4x Xantid Swarm
4x Null Rod
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Qasali Pridemage

4x Aven Mindcensor
3x Gaddock TeeG
3x Ethersworn Canonist

4x Tarmogoyf
 
4x Elvish Spirit guide
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Black lotus/Mox Pearl/Mox Emerald
8x Fetch
2x Forest/Plain
4x Savannah

SB:
3x ?
3x Kataki
3x Tariff
3x Children of Korlis
3x Ghost Quarter

[Stormanimagus]

@Guli- I'm sorry man, but I think you are way off on Xantid Swarm. There's a good reason that no fish decks have ever used it and that none (IMHO) should.

It is not necessary to protect your critters if you run any other form of disruption (Force, Daze, Discard, etc. . .) and the downside to having a vanilla 0/1 otherwise is unacceptable for a Fish deck because Fish needs every deck-slot to count.

The only reason Xantid is used in Storm Combo is that it protects the critical turn where the combo player is hoping to outright win the game. Otherwise the card is lackluster IMO and I'd just rather run other disruption.

Also, comparing Xantid to Vial is like comparing Apples and Rubber Balls. They have very little in common. Yes, they both help you to protect your spells from Countermagic, but you are forgetting a big part of Vial: instant speed. The instant speed of plopping a critter down (especially one that has a game changing impact on the game like Ethersworn Canonist) can be critical as well as the ability to just do it EOT to force the opponent to tap out to counter it, while you plop something down on your turn unhindered. That's why Vial is even playable at all IMO. The ability to drop a critter that will do something NOW at instant speed is a powerful effect. Other than that both Vial and Xantid are pretty much useless for Fish right now.

[Guli]

@Guli- I'm sorry man, but I think you are way off on Xantid Swarm. There's a good reason that no fish decks have ever used it and that none (IMHO) should.

It is not necessary to protect your critters if you run any other form of disruption (Force, Daze, Discard, etc. . .) and the downside to having a vanilla 0/1 otherwise is unacceptable for a Fish deck because Fish needs every deck-slot to count.

The only reason Xantid is used in Storm Combo is that it protects the critical turn where the combo player is hoping to outright win the game. Otherwise the card is lackluster IMO and I'd just rather run other disruption.

Also, comparing Xantid to Vial is like comparing Apples and Rubber Balls. They have very little in common. Yes, they both help you to protect your spells from Countermagic, but you are forgetting a big part of Vial: instant speed. The instant speed of plopping a critter down (especially one that has a game changing impact on the game like Ethersworn Canonist) can be critical as well as the ability to just do it EOT to force the opponent to tap out to counter it, while you plop something down on your turn unhindered. That's why Vial is even playable at all IMO. The ability to drop a critter that will do something NOW at instant speed is a powerful effect. Other than that both Vial and Xantid are pretty much useless for Fish right now.

You are talking to the person who has been testing vials for a very long period of time. The instant speed doesn't matter when you can get every single threat through. Also don't forget that stifle is around. You can safely crack your fetch when Swarm triggers. Or force them to play their TFK or whatever end of turn they were planning earlier. Vial is hated out by null rod and artifact hate and doesn't get pumped up with noble/hierarch when the situation calls for it. Acceleration can be done faster as well. Just trust me on this one, in a meta full of drains and null rod you should go with Xantid Swarm. Also consider that you can now run null rod. Vial in a bomb at instant speed is from old days magic. It doesn't work anymore. And this comes from not only me, an experienced vial player, but also from Brian who introduced vials way back. A faster way to play around drains is Xantid Swarm, it doesn't put pressure on your mana base like vexing would. Xantid is a serious weapon in the current meta and should at the least be side boarded against control if you don't want to get outplayed by a mana drain by walking into it. I would be less optimistic about the Xantid if noble/hierarch wasn't available.

You know what I find strange, but also very human. People make card stereotypes. When you see Xantid you automatically visualize some combo deck that blows up in the opponent face will storm count of I don't know. Interpret the card as a walking Chant forcing every single spell you have through! Fish can be very dangerous if they can play out all their threats.

[Stormanimagus]

@Guli- I'm sorry man, but I think you are way off on Xantid Swarm. There's a good reason that no fish decks have ever used it and that none (IMHO) should.

It is not necessary to protect your critters if you run any other form of disruption (Force, Daze, Discard, etc. . .) and the downside to having a vanilla 0/1 otherwise is unacceptable for a Fish deck because Fish needs every deck-slot to count.

The only reason Xantid is used in Storm Combo is that it protects the critical turn where the combo player is hoping to outright win the game. Otherwise the card is lackluster IMO and I'd just rather run other disruption.

Also, comparing Xantid to Vial is like comparing Apples and Rubber Balls. They have very little in common. Yes, they both help you to protect your spells from Countermagic, but you are forgetting a big part of Vial: instant speed. The instant speed of plopping a critter down (especially one that has a game changing impact on the game like Ethersworn Canonist) can be critical as well as the ability to just do it EOT to force the opponent to tap out to counter it, while you plop something down on your turn unhindered. That's why Vial is even playable at all IMO. The ability to drop a critter that will do something NOW at instant speed is a powerful effect. Other than that both Vial and Xantid are pretty much useless for Fish right now.

You are talking to the person who has been testing vials for a very long period of time. The instant speed doesn't matter when you can get every single threat through. Also don't forget that stifle is around. You can safely crack your fetch when Swarm triggers. Or force them to play their TFK or whatever end of turn they were planning earlier. Vial is hated out by null rod and artifact hate and doesn't get pumped up with noble/hierarch when the situation calls for it. Acceleration can be done faster as well. Just trust me on this one, in a meta full of drains and null rod you should go with Xantid Swarm. Also consider that you can now run null rod. Vial in a bomb at instant speed is from old days magic. It doesn't work anymore. And this comes from not only me, an experienced vial player, but also from Brian who introduced vials way back. A faster way to play around drains is Xantid Swarm, it doesn't put pressure on your mana base like vexing would. Xantid is a serious weapon in the current meta and should at the least be side boarded against control if you don't want to get outplayed by a mana drain by walking into it. I would be less optimistic about the Xantid if noble/hierarch wasn't available.

You know what I find strange, but also very human. People make card stereotypes. When you see Xantid you automatically visualize some combo deck that blows up in the opponent face will storm count of I don't know. Interpret the card as a walking Chant forcing every single spell you have through! Fish can be very dangerous if they can play out all their threats.

There are other key strategic problems with Xantid besides the ones I stated.

1. It is offensive only. Daze + FoW and friends can be both offensive & Defensive.
2. If you run Xantid but no Blue or Black you are relying on 1 4-of to protect everything in your deck and they'll either
       a.)bounce it
       b.)counter it
       c.)win first

Xantid swarm most closely reminds me of a slightly less effective version of Duress in that it protects subsequent plays from counterspells but doesn't push anything through on turn 1 when you play it.

Don't misunderstand. I think the card is really solid, but I don't think a deck with the kind of threat density that Fish has need worry about having a single lock-piece countered. Cold-Eyed Selkie (in my version) is the way you win the war. You have more threats/appropriate answers than they can handle and you overwhelm them. That is the principle of Card Advantage that runs MY version of Fish, and thus-far it's worked pretty well.

I'm going to be taking Selkie-Strike to a small Vintage event today in NYC so I'll report back on how it did later tonight. My gut tells me that Xantid Swarm is going to be a dead card far too often to warrant playing it as a 4-of (and let's face it. you'll WANT to play it as a 4-of to maximize the consistency of getting it turn 1)

There's another reason it is not a good card. After turn 1 it significantly loses power at establishing a winning position for you.

And, it is not good in multiples the way that MM is or even Noble/Qasali. Heck, I try to make sure that basically EVERY card in my Fish decks are good in multiples. The only cards that would not be are:

Cold-Eyed Selkie (because Noble/Qasali often make a single Selkie striking a better/equal proposition as two of them)
Aven Mindcensor from the SB

I hope these critiques are helpful for you in underscoring my problems with Xantid Swarm. The card does stop countermagic true, but you also have to understand that that may not be that helpful to you after turn 1/ if you have a lot of threats building up through card-draw and high density.

[Guli]

I am talking about a walking counter spell/chant, not walking duress. They printed walking duress, its called Tidehollow Sculler I believe.

You know why I suggest something like Xantid Swarm. The fact is that all your relevant creature drops are 2 mana or above. You either play Duress and this means black and then yes, i would not use the Swarms but duress effects. I am talking about Vial lists which this thread is about with the suggested card, magus of the unseen. My response was that you need something faster than vial that has the same PRIMARY goal, outplay mana drain/control. Xantid is kinda perfect for that slot, it is a creature that flies on top of that which is direct synergy with exalted and this does matter a lot in certain match ups.

I send you a PM storm, read it.

[Chaos Lord 21]

  So this card was in the world champion's 75; lends support to its viability. It's good to see some tech in the winning list.

[MEATROCKET]

I still don't think it's viable.  It can be good against a Tezz player who plays Vault early, but they probably shouldn't do that to begin with.  So sure, it's good against a bad player.  We shouldn't play cards for that reason.

[Sam101]

I still don't think it's viable.  It can be good against a Tezz player who plays Vault early, but they probably shouldn't do that to begin with.  So sure, it's good against a bad player.  We shouldn't play cards for that reason.

I don't think this is true.  having a magus of the unseen on the board (and 2 mana available) prevents them from comboing out.

[mmcgeach]

it's like a Null Rod that only affects your opponent's Vault.  Seems great in the mirror.

[ilpeggiore]

it's not that bad vs artifact either.

If you feel like u need anti-vault card ita a viable choise.

[vroman]

its also decent vs stax to stifle welds, borrow crucibles, and make smokestacks sac themselves

[Qube]

and as a small side bonus in the mirror: if there is an opponent's key, you can combo with magus+vault, but this isn't that relevant.
and it also steals every tinker target other than inkwell.

[Klep]

Don't necro 4-month-old threads.  Start a new one instead if you have enough to discuss to justify starting one.

-Klep