Deck Discussion: Sick Long (Ad Nauseam)

[Liam-K]

I chose that example because it shows the absurd unlikelyhood of a hand where casting mind twist for more than two doesn't disrupt your gameplan.  Typically mind twist will either be hymn to tourach for more mana, or reduce both hands to nothing.  Neither is good.

[Purple Hat]

except that in your deliberately chosen example....mind twist clearly did disrupt your game plan since casting it prior to nauseam required you to use all your dark rituals and your lotus.  in addition your example made the choice "win the game now through counter magic, or cast mind twist and maybe win the game now" you'll forgive me for thinking that it's a poor example of a time when twist might be useful but something else is still better.  Nauseam decks are necessarily threat light, many of the big threats for combo decks are expensive, using them makes your average CMC too high to consistently win the game following nauseam.  Twist isnt' a card that I would cast if I had Nauseam on line, it's a card I'd cast as an alternate threat.

Regarding your point about whether twist that depletes both hands is bad for you, I disagree.  Turn 1 mind twist that reduces both hands to nothing by putting a bunch of mana producers into play on your side while forcing your opponent to discard their whole hand, isn't a bad scenario for this deck.  it leaves you looking for cards and them looking for mana and cards.  that's a big difference.

in either case this is a pointless discussion since Jay has actually seen a deck that played both and was unimpressed by it, thus answering my question without resorting to theoretical examples.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Turn 1 mind twist that reduces both hands to nothing by putting a bunch of mana producers into play on your side while forcing your opponent to discard their whole hand, isn't a bad scenario for this deck.

This is all kinds of wrong.  Most decks would love to see a combo opponent moved to a state of lower potential energy.  While it's true that combo may topdeck a huge bomb, exactly because they're threat-light they tend to topdeck worse.  Even with a solid grip, a control player should be nervous against a full handed combo player.

[Mr. Type 4]

i just feel like Mind Twist is way off the list of cards you'd want to fit in this deck.  Thoughtseize and Duress do the job better for the most part - Mind Twist doesnt even reveal their hand so if you dont get it all then you still dont know you're safe.  It also involves blowing a lot of rituals and such on disruption, which seems bad. 

People defend Pact of Negation by saying they often only have 5 mana and cant afford a 6th to Duress first.  Would paying like 4+ mana into a Mind twist be better? (at 3 mana it's like a bad Hymn to Tourach, at 2 it's an awful Duress)

The bottom line is that Mind Twist is not a bomb.   In the best possible scenario it puts the opponent on top-deck mode, which is not so great when you have no counterspells.  All they need to do is top-deck one good card and you're right back where you started.  Timetwister or Necro would be infinitely better.   

[Liam-K]

except that in your deliberately chosen example....mind twist clearly did disrupt your game plan since casting it prior to nauseam required you to use all your dark rituals and your lotus.  in addition your example made the choice "win the game now through counter magic, or cast mind twist and maybe win the game now" you'll forgive me for thinking that it's a poor example of a time when twist might be useful but something else is still better.  Nauseam decks are necessarily threat light, many of the big threats for combo decks are expensive, using them makes your average CMC too high to consistently win the game following nauseam.  Twist isnt' a card that I would cast if I had Nauseam on line, it's a card I'd cast as an alternate threat.

Regarding your point about whether twist that depletes both hands is bad for you, I disagree.  Turn 1 mind twist that reduces both hands to nothing by putting a bunch of mana producers into play on your side while forcing your opponent to discard their whole hand, isn't a bad scenario for this deck.  it leaves you looking for cards and them looking for mana and cards.  that's a big difference.

in either case this is a pointless discussion since Jay has actually seen a deck that played both and was unimpressed by it, thus answering my question without resorting to theoretical examples.

in my example you can mind twist for 5 then cast nauseam.  I would still rather spend 1 mana and get their force than this.  In every other instance casting Mind Twist for 5 means you spent all your rituals and now you can't cast nauseam even if you draw it.

Mind Twist does not help you win and competes for resources you need to win.

Having both hands empty is bad for you because you need a more complicated hand configuration to start doing something than your opponent does to either start doing something or to disrupt you.  Your opponent is going to draw what he needs to take control of the game before you, because it's just easier to get.  You have no way to capitolize on the tempo generated (though your opponent very well might) and are backing yourself into a hand sculpting race with a deck that doesn't have a draw engine.

[Jay]

in either case this is a pointless discussion since Jay has actually seen a deck that played both and was unimpressed by it, thus answering my question without resorting to theoretical examples.

Well I'm not going to base my opinion of a card off one game, but I can see that it would be problematic to play such expensive disruption when constant playtesting has shown that the deck is often a little short on mana.  But I also don't want you to feel like you've been burned by the multiple comments opposing the idea, because it's never bad to see more ideas from which we can pick what we think will work.  However, I'm wondering if you've tried playtesting Mind Twist because I think anyone who has played it in this deck several times would form the same opinion.

I'm curious to see how this deck is developing for the rest of you that have been playtesting it and making changes to it.  I posted my last couple changes, and that's what I'm still running now.  Liam... you're still trying things out, right?  Come up with anything?

[DireLemming]

I'm curious to see how this deck is developing for the rest of you that have been playtesting it and making changes to it.  I posted my last couple changes, and that's what I'm still running now.  Liam... you're still trying things out, right?  Come up with anything?

I'm trying out Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize. The theory behind it being it helps with the awkward situations where you Duress and see Fow/Drain in multiples. Absence of life-loss is nice as well, but overall I'm not particularly impressed.

[mistervader]

I know this thread's a bit old, but I've only started working on the deck lately, and I just thought about a couple of things...

1. Spell Pierce- I know it's reactive, but wouldn't 2 or 3 of these in lieu of Thoughtseize hurt your life total less and act as a way to actually "counter" something on your opponent's own turn, aside from protecting you while comboing off?

2. Mind's Desire - Is this strictly a win-more card? I am still testing the card, but wouldn't a Desire for 5 or so, assuming a not-so-wonderful post-Ad grip, almost guarantee good results?

[Marske]

@MisterVader,
Welcome to The Mana Drain, I would like to remind you of the site rules especially rule V.

This is Thread Necromancy, seeing as you're a basic user I'll leave it at a verbal warning. If you want to start a discussion regarding Ad Nauseam with Spell Pierce or Minds Desire feel free to start it yourself. However do include a decklist, proper reasoning etc.

Marske