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Author Topic: Highlander hate  (Read 3658 times)
AmbivalentDuck
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« on: February 17, 2010, 07:20:34 pm »

Quote
Highlander Hate
Instant - {G} {B}
Search target opponent's library for any number of cards with different names and exile them.  That player may search their library for any number of cards that share a name with a card exiled this way and put them into their hand.  For each card put into their hand this way, that player gains 2 life.  For each card exiled this way, that player loses 1 life.  Then that player shuffles their library.

Seems like this would get a swift banning in explicitly highlander formats, but might be interesting for keeping certain vintage archetypes in check.  It's just plain weird in standard where you could choose to put all of your opponent's Plains into their hand and give them a ton of life...
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 10:55:47 pm »

I think that the life loss thing is way too strong. A two mana instant that makes your opponent lose 10-30 life while also Jester's Capping the shit out of their deck is nuts. Even with just the RFG part if Vintage matters at all to the Gods of MtG who doth create all our cards it wouldn't be printable. What about:

Crude Lobotomy - {U} {B}
Instant
Target player names a card. Then reveal cards from the top of that player's library until you reveal the named card. That player puts that card into his or her hand. That player shuffles all cards revealed this way that share a name with another card revealed this way into his or her library and exiles the rest. That player discards a card at random from his or her hand.

I assume this would still be quite the bomb in highlander formats while not being overkill in Vintage.
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 10:54:42 am »

FFSF is on the right track, but this is still has a bunch of distracting extra text. Just pare it down to what you want it to do:

Infernal Consultation
{2} {B} {B}
Sorcery
Target opponent names a card, then reveals cards from the top of their library until they reveal the named card. That player puts that card into his or her hand, then exiles each card revealed in this way.

This is actually still way too strong, even at 4cc and sorcery, just as a pure mill spell. Imagine playing two or three of these in one game!

Obviously it would wreck Limited too, so any version of this probably has to be a mythic rare.
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 09:30:16 am »

Forcing them to consult is pretty cool.  Another way to go would be a forced Tainted Pact sort of deal.

Tainted Thoughts
 {1} {B} {U}
Sorcery
Target opponent exiles the top card of their library.  They repeat this process until they exile two cards with the same name.
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 04:41:57 pm »

Forcing them to consult is pretty cool.  Another way to go would be a forced Tainted Pact sort of deal.

Tainted Thoughts
 {1} {B} {U}
Sorcery
Target opponent exiles the top card of their library.  They repeat this process until they exile two cards with the same name.


I like this the best so far.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 05:29:27 pm »

Forcing them to consult is pretty cool.  Another way to go would be a forced Tainted Pact sort of deal.

Tainted Thoughts
 {1} {B} {U}
Sorcery
Target opponent exiles the top card of their library.  They repeat this process until they exile two cards with the same name.


I like this the best so far.

Agreed.  Clean, solid, not too crazy.
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 02:24:44 am »

Yes, that's much better...but still really strong. Resolving 2 of them against a deck with few basic lands could very nearly mill them out. It's scary how much better each successive copy of that is.

Basically, the test of how good this kind of card can be is to see what it does to a deck that is fifteen 4-ofs. thorme's card is still really good against such a deck, so it's not really "highlander hate".
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 11:01:17 pm »

Just had another idea inspired by Ad Nauseam and my first idea:

Crude Lobotomy - {2} {U} {B}
Sorcery
Exile the top card of target player's library. If that card shares a name with a card previously exiled this way you lose half your life rounded up. You may repeat this process any number of times.

You could theoretically do a lot of damage but against anything with creatures or 4-ofs its probably suicide.
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 04:20:34 am »

Yes, that's much better...but still really strong. Resolving 2 of them against a deck with few basic lands could very nearly mill them out. It's scary how much better each successive copy of that is.

Basically, the test of how good this kind of card can be is to see what it does to a deck that is fifteen 4-ofs. thorme's card is still really good against such a deck, so it's not really "highlander hate".
15 4-ofs seems an okay measure, but the metagame might also contain decks with 15 identically named basics, in which case the card's value rapidly declines.  Doing some quick rough estimates of probabilities, given a deck of 15 4-ofs, this card would mill 7 or less cards about half the time, and 10 or less 90% of the time.  It could only ever mill 16 at most (you're bound to hit a duplicate).  I tried a few ways to model other types of deck construction, but didn't get far in the few minutes I spent.  I did find that adding a dozen 1-ofs in place of 3 4-ofs doesn't really seem to significantly affect the expectations.  The concern would seem to be about the extremes-- playing against a true highlander deck, or something like Stephen Houdlette's 2nd-place Tezzeret list I got from the SCG database just now, containing 2 4-ofs, 5 3-ofs, 4 2-ofs, and no other duplicates.

I must admit to kind of liking thorme's card if for no other reason than it's profound metagame warping effect.  It's not really much different than Archive Trap or Glimpse the Unthinkable most of the time.  But if you're playing a deck that is weak to it, you lose if it resolves.  The only parallel I can think of is the efficacy of Leyline of the Void against graveyard strategies.  I'm nor sure how many cards like that Magic as a whole should aim for.  How tedious would it be to have sideboards consist of 4x Leyline, 4x This, and then other such cards that just annihilate a specific kind of strategy.  The strategy this seems to work best against is either reliance on restricted cards or over-dependence on tutoring and toolbox answers.  The former only applies to Vintage, and I'm not sure the latter is all that desirable.  Toolbox archetypes are a positive aspect of the game, I think.  They encourage finding uses for underplayed cards, decision making during game time, and other of the more "interactive" aspects of the game.

If I'm feeling math-y later I might try to compute the cumulative probability of milling X cards for a deck with numbers like the Tezzeret deck.  I don't expect it to have more than a 5% chance of getting more than 15 cards.
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 11:05:51 am »

FFSF is on the right track, but this is still has a bunch of distracting extra text. Just pare it down to what you want it to do:

Infernal Consultation
{2} {B} {B}
Sorcery
Target opponent names a card, then reveals cards from the top of their library until they reveal the named card. That player puts that card into his or her hand, then exiles each card revealed in this way.

This is actually still way too strong, even at 4cc and sorcery, just as a pure mill spell. Imagine playing two or three of these in one game!

Obviously it would wreck Limited too, so any version of this probably has to be a mythic rare.
This is Tunnel Vision except it exiles instead of mills. Tunnel Vision was a 5U rare. This is not a 2BB mythic.
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 02:04:55 pm »

Well if you want to make this a 5B rare, go for it. But the intent was that it be vintage-playable, so...yeah.

Another take on it: hitting their hand instead of library.

"Exile all cards in target player's hand. For each card exiled this way, that player may search their library for a card with the same name and put it in their hand."

Not sure how to cost this so it doesn't ruin limited, yet is still fast enough for Vintage. But it's cool!
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