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Author Topic: Pimpness and Ownership  (Read 11272 times)
Delha
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« on: April 30, 2010, 04:54:55 pm »

Topic started to move over the thread derail from here.

Very very cool! The new frame foil fetches are always sick!



For Brian!!!



NOOOOO!!

As much as I like alterations (and i really like them!). Beta power should NEVER ever be altered unless it's done to hide a lot of damages, but even then....

LOL... I was wondering how long it would be until someone posted this! I figured someone would have said something after the Beta Tinkerbell Emerald or Alladin LOA   --- I debated for a LONG time on if I should alter my power..... the truth is, these cards make me pretty happy to play with and I'm NEVER getting rid of them....So I said to hell with it, they are beat, I'm not getting rid of them.. I want to do what's going to give me the most gaming enjoyment....

and this is it.

And the Lotus started off as a beat up unlimited version  Wink

Many thanks Gus.. can't wait to have you do the rest!

No problem, I repect anyone's decission. It's your money. I just had to let my feeling go at that moment. I'm in process of acquiring beta power of my own, and I just don't see me alter those cards yet.

I wish you a lot of fun with them!

This is so wrong, you're only looking after them until you die. So I guess it's ok when I become a multi-millionare and buy every piece of power that ever goes on Ebay just so I can draw pictures of Spongebob and Patrick the starfish on them? It's ok though since I own them, when I die they will all go to my son who really loves Spongebob. SMH

Yes, that is okay.

The entire point of ownership is that the stuff is yours, to do with as you please. It's not like we're leasing this shit. If I want to sell my Lotus tomorrow, that's my perogative. The same applies if I decide to burn it. Inconsiderate, yes. Wrong, or Immoral? No.

You seem to feel that owners have an obligation to guard condition for future owners. If that's the case, then why didn't you say anything to the people complaining about minty cards?

I did.. in fact I said the sight of them made me puke in my mouth a little bit.
Your post does the same for me.  Here's the thing: A Beta Mox is NOT the pyramids.  It's not a historical landmark, its not a public treasure.  There are plenty of rules about what kind of stuff you can or cannot destroy if it falls into the category of historic site.  But Moxes?  Sorry, just not the case.  I think Brian's Moxes are great, but that doesn't really matter.  What matters is that HE thinks they are great.  Because they are HIS.  He can hold onto them and never show them to another person (hell, he can run them through a shredder) and no one can ever say or do anything to him for it.  Because magic cards are not historical treasures: they are magic cards that are less than 20 years old.

Honestly, posts like that, where you assume that you have some stake in what other people do with their own cards and property, make me a lot sicker than someone doing things to their cards that makes them happy.

That's why I said "by your logic..." so there's no need to be completely literal. and I don't assume anything just expressing an opinion, or are we obliged to be in awe over everything posted in this thread? because it's obviously provocative to draw silly cartoon characters on a nice Beta Mox.
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Delha
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 04:58:26 pm »

Quote
Here's the thing: A Beta Mox is NOT the pyramids.  It's not a historical landmark, its not a public treasure.  There are plenty of rules about what kind of stuff you can or cannot destroy if it falls into the category of historic site.  But Moxes?  Sorry, just not the case...
...Because magic cards are not historical treasures: they are magic cards that are less than 20 years old.

That's why I said "by your logic..." so there's no need to be completely literal. and I don't assume anything just expressing an opinion, or are we obliged to be in awe over everything posted in this thread? because it's obviously provocative to draw silly cartoon characters on a nice Beta Mox.
If the examples you chose weren't relevant, you shouldn't have chosen them. Still, let's take this retort at face value. Your argument loses it's teeth once you take away the hyperbole.
Quote
Right... so by your logic a government body that owns a historical landmark building like a Pyramid burger joint has the right to bulldoze it to make a parking lot because in fact they own it. or you shouldn't have any problem if a person buys a Van Gogh painting Twilight Movie Poster just to take a shit on it, because it's within the right of an owner. Spare me please. You have to draw the line somewhere, and drawing cartoon characters on a perfectly nice Beta Mox is where I make it.
That whole thing sounds like you're overreacting now, doesn't it? Also, you said that you draw the line at a Beta Mox. Do you consider it "wrong" if the altered card was an Unlimited Mox? How about if it was just some "silly cartoon characters"?

I love that nobody mentions that I fucked up my Drains and Force of Will's.
I did.. in fact I said the sight of them made me puke in my mouth a little bit.
If you're so worried about actions that will eventually affect people in 70 odd years when you die, how you justify posting the way you do today?
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2010, 11:06:40 pm »

Mickey Mouse is on a Magic card.  Your argument is invalid.
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2010, 11:10:44 pm »

I'll admit I died a little inside when I saw the modifications to those pieces of power. But, they're his cards, he can do what he wants with them. I personally don't like modifications of any kind on my cards, so I don't have any modifications on any cards in my collection. If Soly wants to get custom painted Japanese Force of Wills, more power to him. If someone wants to put Mickey Mouse on his Black Lotus, well, it's his Lotus. Besides, it's not like he destroyed it; he just modified it. He could sell it today and it will still tap for 3 of any one color tomorrow.
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2010, 11:31:18 pm »

I'll admit I died a little inside when I saw the modifications to those pieces of power.

 If Soly wants to get custom painted Japanese Force of Wills, more power to him.

 I usually dislike modifications, because they take away from the card.  But the Fow's and Drains match the rest of my collection (japanese nonfoil)
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2010, 11:51:03 pm »

I'll admit I died a little inside when I saw the modifications to those pieces of power.

 If Soly wants to get custom painted Japanese Force of Wills, more power to him.

 I usually dislike modifications, because they take away from the card.  But the Fow's and Drains match the rest of my collection (japanese nonfoil)

Well, first off, the Japanese non-foil Drains and Forces are insanely cool.  They have that nice, "wait, WHOA!" factor instead of the "why the effing hell is Kingdom Hearts happening on your BETA LOTUS?!?!" factor.

Also, I think the key thing is that there are plenty of Forces to go around, and really, plenty of Drains as well.  Some people drawing on them isn't a big deal.

There there are only several THOUSAND of each piece of BB power in existence.  Having someone doodle on them means that some time down the line, someone may have no choice but to play a Lotus with Mickey, or a Unicorn, or Ronald McDonald, or whatever else happens to be on there.  I won my Beta Lotus and my Mox Jet, both of which are signed by the artist (or at least, are in theory; I know the Lotus is but I sometimes wonder if some dude didn't just sign the Jet), and even that bothers me.  I'd prefer the cards were unadorned.

Still, they are your property, which does entitle you to do whatever you want to them.
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 12:28:24 am »

I actually think the Japanese Force of Wills are pretty awesome and I'll positively respond to people with modifications I like. I just personally don't like them on my cards.

Also, my understanding is that the Lotus is in fact Unlimited (and played Unlimited) but has been painted to look Beta. That doesn't really take away from your overall point, though. I mean, it aggravates me a little, but I would never be like "oh, you shouldn't do that for the good of the game" or whatever. If you want to talk about people that are hurting the game, talk to people who have scores of power locked up in some storage room somewhere.
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 08:33:06 am »

Also, my understanding is that the Lotus is in fact Unlimited (and played Unlimited) but has been painted to look Beta.
You are the first person to say anything, which means to me that I have done my job well Very Happy
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 08:43:31 am »

I wouldn't mind having that power over my normal, plain Unlimited Black Lotus.
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2010, 01:22:39 pm »

I'll admit I died a little inside when I saw the modifications to those pieces of power. But, they're his cards, he can do what he wants with them. I personally don't like modifications of any kind on my cards, so I don't have any modifications on any cards in my collection. If Soly wants to get custom painted Japanese Force of Wills, more power to him. If someone wants to put Mickey Mouse on his Black Lotus, well, it's his Lotus. Besides, it's not like he destroyed it; he just modified it. He could sell it today and it will still tap for 3 of any one color tomorrow.
There there are only several THOUSAND of each piece of BB power in existence.  Having someone doodle on them means that some time down the line, someone may have no choice but to play a Lotus with Mickey, or a Unicorn, or Ronald McDonald, or whatever else happens to be on there.  I won my Beta Lotus and my Mox Jet, both of which are signed by the artist (or at least, are in theory; I know the Lotus is but I sometimes wonder if some dude didn't just sign the Jet), and even that bothers me.  I'd prefer the cards were unadorned.

Still, they are your property, which does entitle you to do whatever you want to them.
I mean, it aggravates me a little, but I would never be like "oh, you shouldn't do that for the good of the game" or whatever.
These embody the point I was making originally. I may or may not like what you're doing, but your property means your call.

Also, my understanding is that the Lotus is in fact Unlimited (and played Unlimited) but has been painted to look Beta.
You are the first person to say anything, which means to me that I have done my job well Very Happy
I have to agree that it was an excellent paint job. If it wasn't explicitly stated, I never would have known it was originally white border. It is of course overshadowed by your main work on the piece though, where one of the things that impressed me was the way the tone of the colors blended so smoothly with the original card.
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 01:59:23 am »

Put aside these already stated rationales like Magic is just a playing card game or the beta Mox Jet is only a 17 year old collectable and consider the monetary value alone. No matter what you're talking about taking something that already exists in very limited quantities, worth $500 or more, and destroying the value forever.

How many Baseball cards are worth > $500? Consider if an owner of a Ted Williams rookie card decided to draw on it, do you really think this would be deemed acceptable, let alone praised by other Baseball card collectors? Hell no, c'mon now.
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 02:40:23 am »

You're allowed to draw on Magic cards you own. I don't see why this is a big deal.
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 04:09:43 am »

How many Baseball cards are worth > $500? Consider if an owner of a Ted Williams rookie card decided to draw on it, do you really think this would be deemed acceptable, let alone praised by other Baseball card collectors? Hell no, c'mon now.

The thing is, baseball cards are completely different than a TCG like Magic.  The fact that magic is *ART* makes having alternate art worth it.
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 08:21:31 am »

I am all for it, because it means that the guys with untarnished minty power will be the real pimps in the end and the chumps can't afford to play with anything but Scribblenauts power. Goo, destroy your power while mine stays mint, unsigned and unaltered.
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 01:21:07 pm »

Put aside these already stated rationales like Magic is just a playing card game or the beta Mox Jet is only a 17 year old collectable and consider the monetary value alone. No matter what you're talking about taking something that already exists in very limited quantities, worth $500 or more, and destroying the value forever.

How many Baseball cards are worth > $500? Consider if an owner of a Ted Williams rookie card decided to draw on it, do you really think this would be deemed acceptable, let alone praised by other Baseball card collectors? Hell no, c'mon now.
You're just arguing in circles here. The post you made works off the assumption that the opinion of your peers determines whether or not an action is right or wrong. What I'm asking is that you tell me why I should take that viewpoint and make it my own. I'm not being facetious here. If you can present solid enough reasons, I'll change my stance.

Saying that any and all modifications are destruction of value is simply ignorant. If Ted Williams was still alive and well, would you consider it "wrong" to get his autograph on said rookie card? Do you think that those same collectors you mention would consider this "unaccepable"?

Next, your post just serves to reiterate that value is subjective. Is the Nightmare Before Christmas art I linked in my earlier reply worth several thousand dollars to you? I'm guessing not. The fact that they've sold indicates that they're worth that much to someone, though. The fact that people have already praised several of the cards you consider ruined shows that your comparison to baseball cards is a poor one.

All other forms of value aside, monetary value ties directly to what people will pay. If Soly ever decided to sell his FoWs and Drains, so long as he could find buyers offering the same for his as they would for vanilla copies, the cash value has not decreased. If I was looking to pick up FoWs or Drains, I would be one of those buyers.
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2010, 06:16:45 pm »

I am all for it, because it means that the guys with untarnished minty power will be the real pimps in the end and the chumps can't afford to play with anything but Scribblenauts power. Goo, destroy your power while mine stays mint, unsigned and unaltered.

This, people who don't alter their P9 and dislike alterations should be happy that the worth of NM/M condition P9 will go up.
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2010, 07:46:34 pm »

This, people who don't alter their P9 and dislike alterations should be happy that the worth of NM/M condition P9 will go up.

This statement makes me sick.  That's not a cut on you exactly, but on people with this viewpoint.  Magic Cards are not stock or a smart investment.  Cards won't go up because a select few (read, less than 1%) of the population that owns them decides to alter them.  Besides, there's enough people who like altered cards that even those pieces of power will find homes if people choose to sell them.
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 05:25:48 pm »

Well. It does work that way Solymossy. Less unsigned+unaltered cards available means its more rare. Rarity nets $$$. Heck, I figured that out playing the game more than 10 years ago.
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 05:27:09 pm »

Well. It does work that way Solymossy. Less unsigned+unaltered cards available means its more rare. Rarity nets $$$. Heck, I figured that out playing the game more than 10 years ago.

This difference in price has to be minuscule.
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2010, 06:05:05 pm »

Well. It does work that way Solymossy. Less unsigned+unaltered cards available means its more rare. Rarity nets $$$. Heck, I figured that out playing the game more than 10 years ago.


Supply and Demand.  If you need to create or increase demand, take an amount (%) of item A out of the market.    However, altering or getting your power signed doesn't actually take that power out of the perceived market (Yes, I understand that they are out of the market if a person isn't selling them, but that's not my argument).    Now if 2000 pieces of Beta power9 were burnt, then yes, I'd argue your cards were worth more now.

However, I will actually argue that Brian Kiels pieces of power are actually worth more, because the people in the rarities market will love them being 1 of a kind.   I wouldn't get rid of my drains, but I've already been offered 600 for my set.   
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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2010, 06:10:29 pm »

Well. It does work that way Solymossy. Less unsigned+unaltered cards available means its more rare. Rarity nets $$$. Heck, I figured that out playing the game more than 10 years ago.


Supply and Demand.  If you need to create or increase demand, take an amount (%) of item A out of the market.    However, altering or getting your power signed doesn't actually take that power out of the perceived market (Yes, I understand that they are out of the market if a person isn't selling them, but that's not my argument).    Now if 2000 pieces of Beta power9 were burnt, then yes, I'd argue your cards were worth more now.

However, I will actually argue that Brian Kiels pieces of power are actually worth more, because the people in the rarities market will love them being 1 of a kind.   I wouldn't get rid of my drains, but I've already been offered 600 for my set.   

Exactly, its a one of a kind set, thus more rare thus you get a higher offer if someone likes the alter. The same way, values will increase for unmodified versions once if everyone doodles his favorite superhero on his power, especially now that altering has become so widely accepted and popular.
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 07:47:44 pm »


Exactly, its a one of a kind set, thus more rare thus you get a higher offer if someone likes the alter. The same way, values will increase for unmodified versions once if everyone doodles his favorite superhero on his power, especially now that altering has become so widely accepted and popular.


If there's 30,000 sets of power, and you get one set altered, there are still 29,999 sets of power unaltered, versus the 1 altered set.    Do the math.
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2010, 02:12:53 am »

Let me chime in with my opinion. I don't claim to speak for everybody. I can quite confidently say that for the majority of people who deal with rarities, they want rarities clean. To me, that's always made intrinsic sense, as collectors are going for pieces that are supposed to exist in a rare and differentiated form (test prints, summer etc), and the value of those pieces is derived from that fact, not from rarity engendered from alteration. For instance, I'd pay 1.7k for a summer sol ring. I wouldn't pay 500 if it were altered. Textless saga is pretty rare, and just the knowledge that at least a couple of bolts have been signed and/or altered is enough to know that with perfect knowledge, I'd charge more for a clean one.

I'm perfectly fine with people doing alterations on their own cards, as ownership does confer certain benefits, one of which is the ability to choose what you do with your item. On relatively plentiful cards, I think it's a great idea. I don't really like seeing poorly drawn pirate ships on mint beta Seas, but not my cards, not my choice.

I draw the line at bleaching, though. Bleached cards are ruined, period.
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2010, 04:33:52 am »

Right, but do people really consider Alpha/Beta power and stuff ... rarities?
I really never have. For something to be a rarity, there had better be like a sheet or two of it, total.

Also, if I put Mickey on a Beta Farmstead would you guys be freaking out just the same?
It may be worth a LOT less, but it is no less rare.
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2010, 05:14:59 am »

Right, but do people really consider Alpha/Beta power and stuff ... rarities?
I really never have. For something to be a rarity, there had better be like a sheet or two of it, total.

Also, if I put Mickey on a Beta Farmstead would you guys be freaking out just the same?
It may be worth a LOT less, but it is no less rare.

Quoted for Truthery.

I had Chris Rush sign my unlimited Black Lotus only because I realized I will never get rid of it. Ever.

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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2010, 05:29:46 am »

Right, but do people really consider Alpha/Beta power and stuff ... rarities?
I really never have. For something to be a rarity, there had better be like a sheet or two of it, total.

Also, if I put Mickey on a Beta Farmstead would you guys be freaking out just the same?
It may be worth a LOT less, but it is no less rare.

Nope, they aren't considered rarities. I should have been explicit with that in my post. However, the line gets a bit more blurred if you take PSA10 and BGS => 9.5 power into account, possibility even including ungraded items that would have likely gotten said gradings if they were so graded.

The people sounding out about altered power in my opinion aren't doing it necessarily due to the availability alone, but because the p9 is a long-standing pillar and representative of the game. Underground Sea may be more expensive than some of the p9 now, but the p9 is still more iconic. As I said, ownership conveys the privilege of choice, but that doesn't deprive others from berating said choice. In the end, no consensus is ever going to be reached on this issue, so it's really a fruitless exercise.
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2010, 07:49:05 am »

Right, but do people really consider Alpha/Beta power and stuff ... rarities?
I really never have. For something to be a rarity, there had better be like a sheet or two of it, total.

Also, if I put Mickey on a Beta Farmstead would you guys be freaking out just the same?
It may be worth a LOT less, but it is no less rare.

How about altering a summer serendib efreet or a blue hurricane?
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2010, 09:23:56 am »

Right, but do people really consider Alpha/Beta power and stuff ... rarities?
I really never have. For something to be a rarity, there had better be like a sheet or two of it, total.

Also, if I put Mickey on a Beta Farmstead would you guys be freaking out just the same?
It may be worth a LOT less, but it is no less rare.

How about altering a summer serendib efreet or a blue hurricane?


Altering summer stuff and other extreme rarities is wrong, in my opinion and I would never do it.  I dont like extreme alterations on P9, but am all for signed power and am actually trying to get all of my P9l signed.  However, my P9 is unlimited, so its not as rare and special as A/B.
Basically, if you own the card, you can do with it as you please.  If I want to paint my house lime green because I think it will look awesome, I can (unless I live in a douchebag gated community or something like that), so people can "ugly" up their cards if they so choose.
I do agree with the people saying unaltered minty stuff will go up with all the alterations.  people will want the clean stuff even if they like altered.  a clean pallet to do what they want will be more appealing than someone else's creative idea.
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2010, 11:26:01 am »

Let me chime in with my opinion. I don't claim to speak for everybody. I can quite confidently say that for the majority of people who deal with rarities, they want rarities clean. To me, that's always made intrinsic sense, as collectors are going for pieces that are supposed to exist in a rare and differentiated form (test prints, summer etc), and the value of those pieces is derived from that fact, not from rarity engendered from alteration. For instance, I'd pay 1.7k for a summer sol ring. I wouldn't pay 500 if it were altered. Textless saga is pretty rare, and just the knowledge that at least a couple of bolts have been signed and/or altered is enough to know that with perfect knowledge, I'd charge more for a clean one.

And that I agree with 1000%.  Beta and Alpha cards aren't rarities.  Sure, they're super rare in comparison to the millions of each rare that see print today, but in the grand scheme of things, their price is derived from the history and "pimp" factor, not rarity.  I would never in a million years get something like a miscut lotus signed or altered, not even mentioning textless saga or Summer.   Or the Exodus test prints that Carpie and a few others have.   But power is just meh in my eyes.

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I draw the line at bleaching, though. Bleached cards are ruined, period.

THIS.  The retards who bleach their cards are idiots.  Why don't I just defecate on them first?  Same fucking thing.
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2010, 11:55:45 am »

Why is the type of alteration any different?  This is all a subjective assessment...if that guy wants it bleached(which I would never do), it is no sufferer to him than a jap drain is to you.
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