[Free Article] Visiting Wizards, Reprints and the Reserved List

[Killane]

After reading the back and forth in this thread, one thing is made abundantly clear : as far as divisiveness is concerned, the Reserved List is the new Restricted List.

Lol, except that those arguing for the sake of the list don't seem to get that it doesn't do anything!

[rilegard]

I would like to offer some thoughts on the subject (will post it on the other thread too):

First and foremost, I don't own P9 but "P8" (unlimited version). Just need a mox pearl to complete the power. I acquired most of the pieces last year, so I didn't have them ten years ago. Let's say that I purchased P8 once I could afford it.

It is true that years ago (1997) I bought a mox ruby, but had to sell it some months later because it seemed that T1 was going to disappear. Like me other players sold their staples too.

If Vintage still exists is obviously thanks to the players and tournament organizers, cause during a long time no one else cared about it. Of course someone could argue that WOTC always have in mind T1 players when designing a new set, but for sure that vintage players never got the support they really deserved.

Players advocating for reprinting have to understand that not everyone like this idea. What I try to say is that WOTC should try to minimize insatisfaction when dealing with this matter.

The proposal suggested by TheWhiteDragon, for example, could be a good starting point.

As a classical rule for enterprises, keeping a client is normally cheaper than getting a new one.

[Killane]

I would like to offer some thoughts on the subject (will post it on the other thread too):

First and foremost, I don't own P9 but "P8" (unlimited version). Just need a mox pearl to complete the power. I acquired most of the pieces last year, so I didn't have them ten years ago. Let's say that I purchased P8 once I could afford it.

It is true that years ago (1997) I bought a mox ruby, but had to sell it some months later because it seemed that T1 was going to disappear. Like me other players sold their staples too.

If Vintage still exists is obviously thanks to the players and tournament organizers, cause during a long time no one else cared about it. Of course someone could argue that WOTC always have in mind T1 players when designing a new set, but for sure that vintage players never got the support they really deserved.

Players advocating for reprinting have to understand that not everyone like this idea. What I try to say is that WOTC should try to minimize insatisfaction when dealing with this matter.

The proposal suggested by TheWhiteDragon, for example, could be a good starting point.

As a classical rule for enterprises, keeping a client is normally cheaper than getting a new one.

If reprints were announced tomorrow, what woudl you do?

Selling off all of your Power immediately would likely result in a huge loss- similar to what I woudl have dealt with had I sold all of my stock in my bank back last Feb during the height of the financial crisis. My shares dropped over 60% in value from the year before. Now, they are worth almost the same amount as before the crisis.

I think the intelligent owners of power woudl not sell. I also think they woudl keep playing, because it's fun and potentially profitable. Woudl they be P/O'd at Wizards? Yes - but woudl they be a lost customer? I doubt it. And ion the long run the price of power woudl likely rise right back up again.

I really don't think that this is a much of a rentention issue as some people think it is. Would you really be willing to eat huge upfront losses to get out of a game you've enjoyed enough to spend thousands of dollars on, just in order to "protest" a move you disagree with? 

These sorts of declines in value are not gradual - values plummet over a few days, and then a slow recovery begins. The smart owners will hold on to the Power, and two years later likely own assets of the same value as pre-reprint.

[CorwinB]

If reprints were announced tomorrow, what woudl you do?

Selling off all of your Power immediately would likely result in a huge loss- similar to what I woudl have dealt with had I sold all of my stock in my bank back last Feb during the height of the financial crisis. My shares dropped over 60% in value from the year before. Now, they are worth almost the same amount as before the crisis.

I think the intelligent owners of power woudl not sell. I also think they woudl keep playing, because it's fun and potentially profitable. Woudl they be P/O'd at Wizards? Yes - but woudl they be a lost customer? I doubt it. And ion the long run the price of power woudl likely rise right back up again.

I really don't think that this is a much of a rentention issue as some people think it is. Would you really be willing to eat huge upfront losses to get out of a game you've enjoyed enough to spend thousands of dollars on, just in order to "protest" a move you disagree with? 

These sorts of declines in value are not gradual - values plummet over a few days, and then a slow recovery begins. The smart owners will hold on to the Power, and two years later likely own assets of the same value as pre-reprint.

Your post makes a lot of good points, but what you present is only true if :

• greater availability really leads to additional players entering the format
• the amount of added Power is finite and does not dwarf the amount currently existing

For example, if WotC introduced a small (but significant) amount of Power (or duals to pick a less controversial item), say around 10% of the amount currently in print, and coupled the added availability with increased tournament support, then I suspect your hypothesis could very well hold true and prices would stabilize quickly after an initial panick.

Now if, say, WotC introduced an extra 20 to 30% of Power/duals on a yearly basis, with no end in sight, I don't think prices would stabilize for Unlimited Power/Revised duals at a level close to the existing price point (see Birds of Paradise).

[honestabe]

If reprints were announced tomorrow, what woudl you do?

Selling off all of your Power immediately would likely result in a huge loss- similar to what I woudl have dealt with had I sold all of my stock in my bank back last Feb during the height of the financial crisis. My shares dropped over 60% in value from the year before. Now, they are worth almost the same amount as before the crisis.

I think the intelligent owners of power woudl not sell. I also think they woudl keep playing, because it's fun and potentially profitable. Woudl they be P/O'd at Wizards? Yes - but woudl they be a lost customer? I doubt it. And ion the long run the price of power woudl likely rise right back up again.

I really don't think that this is a much of a rentention issue as some people think it is. Would you really be willing to eat huge upfront losses to get out of a game you've enjoyed enough to spend thousands of dollars on, just in order to "protest" a move you disagree with? 

These sorts of declines in value are not gradual - values plummet over a few days, and then a slow recovery begins. The smart owners will hold on to the Power, and two years later likely own assets of the same value as pre-reprint.

Your post makes a lot of good points, but what you present is only true if :

• greater availability really leads to additional players entering the format
• the amount of added Power is finite and does not dwarf the amount currently existing

For example, if WotC introduced a small (but significant) amount of Power (or duals to pick a less controversial item), say around 10% of the amount currently in print, and coupled the added availability with increased tournament support, then I suspect your hypothesis could very well hold true and prices would stabilize quickly after an initial panick.

Now if, say, WotC introduced an extra 20 to 30% of Power/duals on a yearly basis, with no end in sight, I don't think prices would stabilize for Unlimited Power/Revised duals at a level close to the existing price point (see Birds of Paradise).

But that's obviously not whats being suggested.  I think if this were to happen, it would be what killane said, maybe 10-15% influx of power.  I doubt ANYONE is looking for a large-scale print run

[rilegard]

If reprints were announced tomorrow, what woudl you do?

I should be in need in order to to sell the cards. My intention is not to sell them to make profit, well perhaps if I decided in the future to go for P9 from Beta it could help. Of course it is always good to know that if some day I decided to sell the power for critical causes then the effort done to buy them wouldn't be lost at all.

About the retention issue:

It's true that the fact of reprinting perhaps is not related with retention of players, but other decissions taken by WOTC (not that critical at first glance) such restricting, unrestricting, rule changing may lead to an unhealthy evironment where some people is not having fun and decide to try Legacy.

[Killane]

If reprints were announced tomorrow, what woudl you do?

I should be in need in order to to sell the cards. My intention is not to sell them to make profit, well perhaps if I decided in the future to go for P9 from Beta it could help. Of course it is always good to know that if some day I decided to sell the power for critical causes then the effort done to buy them wouldn't be lost at all.

About the retention issue:

It's true that the fact of reprinting perhaps is not related with retention of players, but other decissions taken by WOTC (not that critical at first glance) such restricting, unrestricting, rule changing may lead to an unhealthy evironment where some people is not having fun and decide to try Legacy.

Ok, but this debate ios regarding reprints. There is nothign about reprints that suggests anything woudl change regarding game or tournament rules.

[dangerlinto]

For example, if WotC introduced a small (but significant) amount of Power (or duals to pick a less controversial item), say around 10% of the amount currently in print, and coupled the added availability with increased tournament support, then I suspect your hypothesis could very well hold true and prices would stabilize quickly after an initial panick.

Now if, say, WotC introduced an extra 20 to 30% of Power/duals on a yearly basis, with no end in sight, I don't think prices would stabilize for Unlimited Power/Revised duals at a level close to the existing price point (see Birds of Paradise).

That depends entirely on the popularity cap of Vintage and the growth of sanctioned events.

Also, it would be very, very hard to release 10% of power.

For example, if 10% (I assume you mean of the total ABU print run) were released, that's about 2000 of each power.  I'm not totally sure, but I'm pretty sure that at such a low number, for a while Vintage would gain players in exactly the amount of power produced.  It also depends highly on the price point of said power.  If it was FTV: P9 for $34.99 with a print run of 2000, there wouldn't be an out fit around that could keep it in stock, and I'm pretty sure it would be hoarded and hocked a prices well above that.  You'd probably see 2000 eBay auctions with Buy it Now prices of $999.99 or something higher.  

It also depends highly on whether or not the reprinting of power would also mean the death of Proxy tournaments.  How many people are playing Vintage now without owning power?  

There are a lot of variables here.  I don't see many scenarios where reprinted Power gets to keep all the value they currently have, but I see several where it keeps at least a fair deal of the value they have.  

[honestabe]

I think it wouldn't be the death of proxied tournaments.  However, instead of 10-20 proxies being the norm, 5-10 would be the average.  It also would most likely create an increase in the popularity of sanctioned vintage

[yukizora]

I think it wouldn't be the death of proxied tournaments.  However, instead of 10-20 proxies being the norm, 5-10 would be the average.  It also would most likely create an increase in the popularity of sanctioned vintage

The death of proxies tournaments serves the best interest of WotC, so for sure they'll choose a solution that will make the proxy tournaments not so much interesting.

[Smmenen]

This article is now FREE.

Many of you were eager to read it but too cheap to buy premium; now you can!!!

Check out my photos of Wizards... AND the Beta print sheets!

[Cyberpunker]

Nice article!

Is it possible for you to tell us how the conversation between you and Wizards went?  

[BruiZar]

The biggest flaw you made in this article is only mentioning the value impact on alpha and beta cards, and then forgetting to mention that the revised/unlimited versions would collapse. That and the fact that the majority of players own revised / unlimited versions instead of beta/alpha, means it would have caused total mayhem to every eternal player besides those lucky enough to play with beta duals and beta power.

You did mention the impact on shivan dragon, and that says it all.

[AmbivalentDuck]

those lucky enough to play with beta duals and beta power.

Owning power, and especially "premium" power, is an economic decision and has little to do with luck.  My proxied Lotus is just as effective as a signed PSA 10 beta Lotus.

I strongly suspect that most of the players who own a full set of unlimited power could have instead purchased beta power.   I mean, they had several thousand to invest in cardboard and there's no reason to believe that how many thousand was a crucial factor in permitting them to make the purchase.  Instead, it's a marginal utility calculation: "real" power has utility over proxied power since you can play in non-proxy events with it.  Beta power's only utility over unlimited power is cardboard penis.

[Yare]

I agree with the analysis regarding the prices of alpha/beta cards. I think, however, that the value of unlimited cards would in fact fall because I think unlimited cards primarily derive their value from playability/tournament use rather than pimpiness/collectability/whatever. Given a possible cheaper replacement, demand will fall for those cards. This of course assumes that this fall in demand isn't offset by an increase because of a greater interest in eternal formats created by the greater supply of cheap cards, but I don't have nearly enough economic information available to make an intelligent guess as to what would actually happen.

Also, given what you've said in this article, I'm even more surprised by what WotC ultimately decided to do. I really think we need to somehow say as a community "we want a full explanation/justification from whomever made this decision."

[Evenpence]

Also, given what you've said in this article, I'm even more surprised by what WotC ultimately decided to do. I really think we need to somehow say as a community "we want a full explanation/justification from whomever made this decision."

I was feeling this the entire time I was reading the article, thank you for putting it into words so I don't have to.

i.e. QFT

[pierce]

This article is now FREE.

Many of you were eager to read it but too cheap to buy premium; now you can!!!

woot. you forgot a different type of player who frequent eternal events: the miser/hustler

the person who owns maybe 50 cards total, mostly staples, and somehow manages to borrow the exact list he/she wants to play, usually due to being ahead of the curve and asking for rares nobody wants at the moment. and also being a super cool, friendly, awesome guy that everyone gets along with and nobody has a problem lending cards. that part has been pretty important. if I were the same dick I am when you play vs me as I am in normal social situations, then I'd never get to borrow anything.

i've been doing it for years, sold off my collection a long time ago, and still get to play optimal lists in every format. i've won a ptq where the day before I didnt have a single card for my deck. and I know I'm not alone.

this type of player would probably benefit from reprinted power/duals/fows/drains/etc. because it would encourage us to actually invest in the product again instead of being metagaming suckfish.

and while feelings are not reason(s) (thanks for the logic 101 reminder lol) I think that many people are motivated by their feelings. If feelings have the same power as reason to motivate, then they ought to deserve some amount of respect. This may not be an equal amount, but it requires acknowledgment. Wizards ought to acknowledge the general consensus of the eternal populace, even if that consent is primarily based on an emotional response.

you are right, something ought to be done about the rising price of duals (and lesser staples, like goyf) in legacy. I presume that the manner in which Wizards handles that will reflect their future intentions towards solving the power crisis in vintage.