Vintage Skills #1: When do you add soot counters to Smokestack?

[Smmenen]

This is a thread project on Vintage Skills to provide resources that help community members become better at Vintage Magic.   This is the first.   If it is successful, there will be more.   

It is important to note that we make no claim that there are no right or wrong answers.  These are skills that are developed through experience and practice, and there may be many possible answers to the same question.   However, the hope is that these skills can also be taught. 

The question is simple: When do you add soot counters to Smokestack?   What considerations lead you to keep Smokestack set at the same number of counters, and what considerations lead you to ramp it?   How do you decide when to ramp smokestack?   

[Smmenen]

I'll start:

The decision of when to ramp Smokestack, and how far, is one of the trickiest that a Stax player can make.   There are a bunch of factors to consider such as both players board position, expected board position, likely draws, and other relevant tactical considerations.  The strategic issue may also be variable, depending on the particular build of Stax you are playing.  

In the early days of Stax, when I was helping to develop the archetype, there was very little question that you would ramp the Stax with the explicit goal of wiping out your opponent's board.   Stax draw engines, such as Meditate and Draw7s provided a plentiful source of permanents, such that you could sacrifice 3-4 permanents a turn and replenish them with ease.   Eventually, a Goblin Welder would allow you to stop the ramping and restart the Stack.  The printing of Crucible of Worlds changed the way in which Stack was ramped.    At the same time, Stax decks went from being hard prison locks to soft locks.   Wiping out your opponent's entire board was viewed as simultaneously unnecessary, unproductive, and too costly.   Stax decks were redesigned with mostly permanents so that a Stack set at 1 could be fed indefinitely.   Crucible of Worlds made Stax set at 1 a powerful soft lock that could be fed indefinitely.   With those thoughts in mind, here is what I consider:

In the early game both players are adding permanents to the board, and so I almost immediately ramp Smokestack to 1.  However, because I want to keep Smokestack around for a while, I tend to keep it set at one.   For example, if I open with Workshop, Mox, Stack, and Stack resolves, and I have Tangle Wire and a Sphere in hand, both of which I intend to play next turn, I will not likely ramp Stack on my next turn.   I'll simply keep Stack set at 1, and then play Tangle Wire and Sphere.   My opponent will be forced to sacrifice a permanent.  The Tangle Wire and Sphere will keep them locked down enough that one Soot counter will be enough for me to get enough of an advantage to keep them soft locked.  Eventually, I'll sacrifice my Tangle Wire to the Stack and keep my permanent asymmetry.   However, if the opponent simply explodes around the Tangle WIre and Stack, or plays a critical threat that direly needs to be addressed, I may ramp.  

The time I tend to be the most recklessly aggressive about ramping is when both players have exhausted their hands, but have managed to amass more than a few permanents on the table and I topdeck Stack.    I will aggressively ramp even though its symmetrical on board to deny my opponent resources in the hopes that I'll recover faster.    Also, I will sometimes aggressively ramp in the mid-game with an early Stack to wipe out both boards because my opponent is developing faster than I am.    For example, I may be drawing a bunch of spells and few lands or mana, and my opponent is quickly developing their board.  I may decide that I can't get ahead sitting at 1 Soot counter, so I'll rapidly ramp to wipe out board boards.    

It's important to do math to count several turns in advance to see what the effect of ramping is based upon how many permanents both players have in play, and what you project your opponent to have.   This is fairly easy to do against Fish or Aggro decks, where there are a defined number of permanents you need to deal with.  Against, Drain or Combo decks, you may need to ramp to prevent your opponent from having even a small window of opportunity to play something that will win them the game, like Yawgmoth's Will.    

[zeus-online]

I think you summed it up quite well, i'd like to add that it also depends upon the build and more then anything: What do you have in play? And what does the opponent have in play? If i have a confidant or a crucible i might ramp a little more aggresively - Ofcourse, that depends upon what the opponent is playing and what he has out. Against a deck like fish it can often be necessary to ramp to 2. Some builds of stax is litterary 60 permanents while others have more permanents, that is definetly a factor to consider when ramping, how many permanents do i predict to topdeck before the stack will lock me out?

All that being said, I rarely ramp to more then two and i usually keep it at 1.

[voltron00x]

It’s been a while since I played with 5C Stax, but I have been testing B/R Stax lately; the decks get different mileage out of Smokestack, at least in my experience.

There are a lot of factors that determine how far you want to ramp up Smokestack in B/R Stax.  The first thing to keep in mind is that the deck is almost entirely permanents.  I run one Vamp and one Darkblast in my build, but the list in the primer is 59/60 permanents maindeck.  Compared to a deck like Tezz, that means that you have twice as many permanents in your deck as your opponent, so putting Smokestack on 1 early is pretty much always correct. 

This also means that if you have resolved a Dark Confidant and are drawing 2 cards a turn, you probably can support ramping Smokestack to 2 (provided that you have Mishra’s Workshop in play or otherwise have mana to operate and play one land and one permanent per turn) and keep board parity on your side while wiping the opponent’s board.  Similarly, if you have Crucible in play and are behind on permanents, it can sometimes be correct to ramp to 2 to devastate your opponent’s board while having 50% less impact on your own (and remembering that your deck is almost entirely permanents, the effect is even less symmetrical than that, in reality).

In my experience, Smokestack is absolutely the essential piece to B/R Stax.  The build uses Null Rod to lock down fast mana (or sometimes a preemptive Chalice on 0).  While this can be effective, especially in the early game, there are times where you may find your opponent (such as Tezz, TPS, or Oath) has a lot of fast mana in play, has managed to get some basics into play, and is working towards resolving a Hurkyl’s or Rebuild.  Unlike 5C Stax, which has some combination of Powder Keg, Gorilla Shaman, and Karn to sweep away fast mana, B/R Stax basically only has Smokestack to get the opponent’s permanents off the board.  If the opponent can work through Thorn / Tangle Wire to set up Rebuild or Hurk and bounce Null Rod, you’ll usually lose.  One of my early mistakes with the deck was not realizing how key Smokestack was to this version of Stax and further how critical ramping it to 2 in many instances was, so that the opponent would have to sacrifice their fast mana and take the Rebuild / Recall option off the table.

Of course there are also instances where you may need to ramp Smokestack further, to reset the board completely, or even instances where you can reset the opponent’s board with a ramp to 3 while minimally impacting yours, such as through the use of Welder.  For instance, you can ramp up to 3 and then Welder out that Smokestack after your opponent’s upkeep for a new one to ramp to 1.  This kind of activity puts you way ahead on permanents:

Upkeep 1, Sac 0, ramp to 1.  Opponent sacrifices 1 permanent on Upkeep.
Upkeep 2, Sac 1, ramp to 2.  Opponent sacrifices 2 permanents on Upkeep.
Upkeep 3, Sac 2, ramp to 3.  Opponent sacrifices 3 permanents on Upkeep.  Weld out Smokestack after Upkeep for a new Smokestack.
Upkeep 1, Sac 0, ramp to 1, etc. 

Each cycle of these results in you going ahead 3 permanents.

[Prospero]

This is a thread project on Vintage Skills to provide resources that help community members become better at Vintage Magic.   This is the first.   If it is successful, there will be more.  

It is important to note that we make no claim that there are no right or wrong answers.  These are skills that are developed through experience and practice, and there may be many possible answers to the same question.   However, the hope is that these skills can also be taught.  

The question is simple: When do you add soot counters to Smokestack?   What considerations lead you to keep Smokestack set at the same number of counters, and what considerations lead you to ramp it?   How do you decide when to ramp smokestack?  

The primary objective of a Stax player (at least a 5CStax player) is to deny an opponent as much of his resources as possible at any given time.  One of the first lessons with Tangle Wire is its role in mana denial.  Smokestack functions in much the same way.

When considering whether or not to ramp a Stack the Shop player must consider both the current board state and the potential board state.  How much mana are you permitting an opponent access to on that opponent's turn?  This question will take into consideration all the other parts of the board.  

1.  Are there sphere effects on the board?  How relevant are those sphere effects at that point in time (i.e. does an opponent find himself effectively held down by a sphere effect because he only has a few lands, or has your opponent built a significant board?  Is it such that a sphere effect will not stop them from casting their key spells in a given turn?)  If they're constrained by spheres, you should generally leave your Stack at one.  If you need to do some emergency board control, ramp away.

2.  Do you have a healthy Wire on the board, and, once again, how effective will this given Wire be at holding an opponents mana down?  By stacking your triggers properly a fresh Wire and a Smokestack on 1 will hold down 5 opposing permanents.  Is this enough?  What are you afraid of in this given board state?  If you're able to punish their board without ramping the Stack, effectively denying them all, or almost all, of their mana, then you should keep the Stack at 1 more often than not.  If this isn't the case, you should consider ramping.

3.  Do you have Crucible on the board?  If you have Crucible, but no Welder, it may be right (depending on your other lock components and your opponents board potential) to work on a slow burn in lieu of a Stack that is unsustainable.  If you have to "suicide Stack", work to ensure that Crucible remains on the board for as long as possible - both to blow up as many opposing permanents as possible and to give yourself time to draw your outs.  

4.  Do you have a Welder on the board?  If you do, are you able to make the Stack more devastating for your opponent because of said Welder?  Ramping a Stack that you intend on Welding in the near future is a critical play.  If you're able to land a Welder in the coming turn or two you may want to keep your Stack on 1 for the time being.

5.  How effective have you been at controlling your opponents artifact mana?  Smokestack is often at its weakest when an opponent has several early Moxen.  Your Stack needs to be destroying your opponents lands, not Moxen, in order to be truly effective.  Do you have Gorilla Shaman in hand or in play?  What about Powder Keg for that matter?  If you do, will a ramped Stack allow you to considerably shrink your opponents board?

Taking all of these concerns into consideration is sometimes difficult.  If you are playing against opposing Welders this becomes even more difficult, as you must work to keep artifacts out of your graveyard (with an active opposing Welder) in order to ensure the efficacy of your Stack.

Mike Flores's "Who's the Beatdown" article brings an important point to the forefront for most Stax players - you are working on a lock.  This is not a race.  You are almost always going to function as a control deck.  In many respects Stax is the only true control deck left in the format.  This means that you should not be wantonly aggressive with your Smokestacks.  There are times for a "suicide Stack", but it's almost always when your opponents board state is greater than your own.  Ramping a stack to two, three, or in those rare cases, beyond, is something that warrants careful consideration.

Without the example of given board states it's difficult to give a definitive answer.  Even then, there is a certain 'feel' to an opponent's play - is he leading you to believe that he's holding something that would alter the state of the board considerably?  Things such as that would potentially alter whatever the conceived "right" play was.

I'd like to conclude all of this by saying that I have seen many Stax players sacrifice their Smokestacks before they should have.  Just because an opponent doesn't have a board doesn't mean that you should sacrifice a Smokestack on 1 in your next upkeep.  You sacrifice that given Stack when it will be detrimental to you to keep it on the board.  By keeping a Stack on a clear board you hold the opponent back from effectively building a board, potentially for the additional turn or two that you need in order to establish the hard lock.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Another small thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't be afraid to sack lock pieces or workshops to smokestack even if they are still doing something. Sacrificing a null rod to abuse memory jar or a chalice to play something relevant, or a lock-piece instead of mana can all be acceptable plays if it will strengthen your board position as long as you are careful, time it correctly, and judge the impact of whatever resource you are enabling them again compared to whatever you replace that lock-piece with.

[vroman]

Remember the corner cases of stacking smokestack backwards to get rid of an extra permanent, like Mana Crypt when going from 0->1, or if need to fill yard for B-Ring threshold. Also if digging desperately, and Crucible in play, a few times Ive activated Bazaar in upkeep, sacked it to soot, then replayed it main phase to mill more. Ie if Welder up and need to find Tangle to keep Inkwell down, etc.

Really what needs to be considered is how fast your opponents deck is, vs how many permanents they have. If they have two permanents and its Storm, def go to 2. If they have two permanents and its fish, keep it at 1. If its Tez, harder call. If you have a known play next turn, then I would ramp so they can't have drain mana up via a land drop. Otherwise, probably go for the long game and keep at 1.
If they have 4+ I will go to soot@2 almost every time. If they have 3, I will keep it at 1, unless its Storm. The danger is they sac 2, don't make a land drop, and then you have choice of keeping soot at two, sacking 4 to take out 1; or drop Smoke and leave them with a land.
Of course if you have Welder, always ramp no matter what.

[TheShop]

I know this thread has not been posted on in a while, but I have a question that is pertinent:

opponent has several mana sources, but is under sphere to a large degree(1 spell per turn is still possible).  You are slightly behind in the soot race, but not far(ie countered crucible, you are down a permanent).  The have vault in play and you have a suspicion key could come down in the next 2 turns. 

Ceterus peribus(sp?):  I have played this where I ramped(unsustainably but hoping for topdeck greatness)  and the vault untapped(which was bad), but giving them a turn seems extremely dangerous.

Even with null rod in play, I understand they can still untap the vault the make you lose a few permanents(I would like a definitive yes or no if this is possible).   

What to do, what to do...

[Cyberpunker]

Even with null rod in play, I understand they can still untap the vault the make you lose a few permanents(I would like a definitive yes or no if this is possible).   

What to do, what to do...

It is very possible and very likely if you have more than 1 counter on smokestack.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I know this thread has not been posted on in a while, but I have a question that is pertinent:

opponent has several mana sources, but is under sphere to a large degree(1 spell per turn is still possible).  You are slightly behind in the soot race, but not far(ie countered crucible, you are down a permanent).  The have vault in play and you have a suspicion key could come down in the next 2 turns. 

Ceterus peribus(sp?):  I have played this where I ramped(unsustainably but hoping for topdeck greatness)  and the vault untapped(which was bad), but giving them a turn seems extremely dangerous.

Even with null rod in play, I understand they can still untap the vault the make you lose a few permanents(I would like a definitive yes or no if this is possible).   

What to do, what to do...

You are correct and they can untap Time Vault to make you sac some more permanents but since it lets you draw another card (which will pretty much always be a permanent) it isn't that bad. Honestly I think it all depends on how many cards are in your hand (since you're playing stax we'll assume they're all permanents), how many you can drop per turn, and how much artifact mana you each have (since I'm assuming you have Null Rod out they're free sacrifices). Is it safe to assume they used some sort of artifact destruction like Rack and Ruin or Ancient Grudge to get you behind on permanents in the first place and that it isn't likely they will get another one in relevant time? Keep in mind that Tangle Wire is a horrible topdeck in this situation if you try to massively ramp Smokestack since it allows them to tap Vault and make you sac even more permanents. If one of your spheres is a Golem or you have a big creature in play I'd say ramp it to the max that will let you get lethal in, but that would be too easy so I'm assuming that they're regular spheres.

If they have a lot of artifact mana I'd just ramp it to the max if you're really scared of bounce->infinite turns because you're pretty much damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If there are a limited amount of free sacrifices in play I'd probably ramp it to whatever will stop them from casting that 1 spell per turn they are managing ASAP and then leave it there until they're out of lands or it starts eating into spheres faster than it eats their lands since that gives them mana to bounce->win on your turn, hoping to hit Crucible/Welder/a way to swing lethal into their face. This way every extra Sphere you draw and resolve can save you 1 soot counter.

If at any point you notice that your hand is starting to look really good on a reset (like if you draw Trinisphere) I would just go apeshit and reset the board completely.

Unfortunately for 5-color I couldn't give a general answer on what I'd do since literally every single piece of information would decide when and how I ramp because of the massive singletons and also because I can't make generalizations like "all your cards are permanents".

I'm not a shop master by any means but those are the lines of play that I would be most afraid of if I was sitting across from you.

[TheBrassMan]

It's important to note that while they can untap their Vault to skip a turn through Null Rod, they can only do that once, as the ability never fires if the vault is untapped.  Under previous erratas they could keep skipping, which would mean setting the smokestack to 2 would pretty much be a game loss.  As the last poster hinted at, there's more to the soot race than just number of permanents, you have to consider how valuable those perms are to each player, and how the game is likely to progress in regards to them.  You're going to keep drawing more perms than the other player, and him topdecking key is a nonissue if you have Null Rod out.  Those factors imply you want to keep it at one, at least until after he's been pressured into untapping the vault.  However, unless you have some reason to not be afraid of Hurkyl's/Rebuild->untap win, you might not really have a choice, a Stax player really cant let that be an option for his opponent if at all possible.

[Purple Hat]

if your deck contains a gods eye, gate to the reiki you can sac 2 infinitely with crucible in play.  if you leave the stack at 1 and have crucible you get a whole pile of spirit tokens to attack with.  it's mostly just a cute trick but it is sometimes actually useful.