The conclusion of Scars of Mirrodin

[Delha]

I ghost quarter your underground sea. You have mox and fetchland. You tap mox and sac fetchland to generate 2 mana. I vial in Arbiter in response. Devastating.

There is no reason to let things play out this way. If you nuke my sea, I float one, let it die, and dig up an Island. Thanks for getting me to potential Jace mana. Unless you vial in Arbiter before sea is destroyed, it will not affect the Ghost Quarter search. Assuming you do so, I pay for the Island I'm digging up, and will obviously not try to fetch with just one mana up.

[Guli]

I ghost quarter your underground sea. You have mox and fetchland. You tap mox and sac fetchland to generate 2 mana. I vial in Arbiter in response. Devastating.

There is no reason to let things play out this way. If you nuke my sea, I float one, let it die, and dig up an Island. Thanks for getting me to potential Jace mana. Unless you vial in Arbiter before sea is destroyed, it will not affect the Ghost Quarter search. Assuming you do so, I pay for the Island I'm digging up, and will obviously not try to fetch with just one mana up.

The game tricks with vial/arbiter/ghost are powerful in any case.
You can't know if I am holding Arbiter at all. I activate vial and I ask 'ok?'. Once Arbiter is in play it is too late.

Want I wanted to point out is that I can respond to fetch lands with ghost quarter once I have arbiter in play. I used a bad example maybe. Sorry for that. I can also target your fetch lands with ghost or wasteland and then vial in arbiter.

Besides the hot action and synergy that could do a lot of damage, the combination of arbiter and strips on the long run are superb and effective. It is not enough to seal the deal on its own, just like any mana denial. But I think 17 slots is enough to dedicate to mana denial especially if they can't be countered most of the time.

[Delha]

I don't dispute the power of Arbiter. I like the card a lot, and hope/expect it will do great things in Fish. I was just pointing out that your example didn't work.

[zeus-online]

.

[Guli]

I don't dispute the power of Arbiter. I like the card a lot, and hope/expect it will do great things in Fish. I was just pointing out that your example didn't work.

And you should point it out. I appreciate it.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Some aspects regarding synergy go undercommunicated here.

Voltron claimed that arbiter is bad against shops and I think he's missing the point completely. If a fish deck runs 4 each of arbiter and ghost quarter main it already has considerable game against shops game one and more games 2 and 3 when arbiters are sided out. Arbiter also makes kataki stronger in absolute terms (because the opponent has less mana to pay for tutoring) and relative terms (since arbiters limit the colors you can realistically run to 2, maybe 3, you have an incentive to play white artifact hate). The synergy between arbiter, ghost quarter and kataki is clear as day to me and if I am paired against MUD with all of these cards in the main I would not be discouraged.

A similar rationale can be applied to dredge, where ghost quarter is equally strong. Arbiter itself is of course going out games 2 and 3 if you are packing hate.

Guli also pointed out that arbiter makes vial better, but it doesn't hurt to back that claim up with a few more examples:

Against tendrils builds, you can wait until the last possible moment before revealing if you have arbiter, teeg or canonist in hand. The potential for preying on tutors and rituals is strengthened.

While vial has always blunted the permissive edge of blue decks, combining vial and arbiter pulls it into the hands of the aggro player. You suddenly hose their counters, mana and tutors: That is nearly their whole deck. And yes, delaying tinker with several turns (its not only 2 mana. They also needs to tutor for tinker half the time) means a lot. Tinker is threat number one from blue control if you are playing aggro.

If you choose to play UW fish with arbiter, daze and vial (much like half of the legacy metagame a year or so back), these cards combine wonderfully: Turn one tundra -> vial with daze back-up is strong because the opponent has an insentive to force the vial. After that, 9 wastes and the threat of daze or instant arbiter should keep the control player on his toes for the rest of the game.

In a game where both players are short on mana (because you play 9 wastes), vial rocks.

I don't think arbiter will reshape vintage, but I'm certain it will alter our valuation of certain cards. Vial and ghost quarter are in my opinion chief among these and  daze belong to a long list of cards we haven't thought about or discussed yet.

[Guli]

Don't forget the synergy between Gorilla Shaman and Arbiter. Perfect couple. I am using 4x City of Brass now and the pain it gives me is minimal because I don't use any fetchlands. And once Vial is online, which eventually happens, you don't need city that much. City and Vial are strong cards to stabilize your mana base for 3 colors.

The third color could be blue, black or green. Right now I am using black because Demonic Consultation is my 10th strip effect or my 5th Leonin, Canonist, Confidant, Welder or Shaman. I am not running a lot of Kataki (only 2) main deck but I did have the chance to consult for wasteland and get rid of tolarian academy. The results was my opponent lost half of his board because of Kataki. Demonic Consultation is extremely powerful. It doesn't search btw, which is great with Leonin Arbiter. And with active vial@2 it is the best card you can have in your hand. It is a cheap upgraded Eladamri's Call. Another strong thing about black is that you have a real draw engine with Dark Confidant which other colors simply can't give you the way Confidant does.

Tapping mana for your vial because of Kataki does not matter at all. Basically vial compensates for the 'mana loss' in a very logical way, it gives you 2 mana. Instead of teeg and believer I use thoughseize now which is also great after a passive turn 1 vial. You have many strong follow ups. Vial in gorilla eat a mox and cast thoughtseize or strip a land. Next turn vial is at the critical 2 and the game begins. With the most easily castable white bears and 1 mana cards you can basically cast anything turn 1 if you have a mox in opening hand.

Hide/Seek is interesting as another answer to Tinker while also being solid against shop and chalice@2. The only thing I am missing is a muscle power. Tarmogoyf would be pretty good but it is green (Teeg too btw, 2x would be nice). Would city and vial be enough to support 4 colors?

[RecklessEmbermage]

The only thing I am missing is a muscle power. Tarmogoyf would be pretty good but it is green (Teeg too btw, 2x would be nice). Would city and vial be enough to support 4 colors?

Are you running something close to this?

4x Wasteland
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Strip Mine
2x Plateau
2x Scrubland
2x Badlands
2x Bloodstained mire
4x City of Brass
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
4x Aether Vial

I think the short answer is no. You shouldn't run much more than 21 lands. Maybe 22. This manabase is already stretching it with 11 solid sources of each color (two of them being hosed by arbiter). I'd claim that this isn't stable enough as is and you should limit yourself to 2 colors. Relying too heavily on aether vial is a bad idea, since most opponents will pack artifact hate main.

I think you have to choose which is more important to you: monkey or duress effects. If you cut monkey, loose red altogether. If you cut duress you can still splash confidant off the 4 cities, 2 duals, 2 fetches and a mox (and vials). That would give you 12 sources each of red and white, which is barely enough. I could even see a dual splash for black and green, as long as you only play 2cc creatures in those colors. Probably something like 12 red, 12 white, 8 black and 8 green for 4 goyf, 2 teeg and 4 confidant (21 lands and 4 moxen).

If you cut red, add kataki #3 and consider disenchant.

If you cut black, consider clamp. You have an abundance of colorless mana to spend.

Without green, the only good 2cc fatty available to you is jotun grunt. Red, white or black only get 3/3 guys (with a few exceptions not worth mentioning), which do trade with juggs, but loose to goyfs. And they are all mediocre. Grunt is better in a deck with fetchlands, but still good here. It can be vialed in to steal your opponents first or biggest dredgers (quite good after you've wasted bazaar) utility cards like life from the loam or therapy and hoses goyf.

EDIT: I forgot one obvious option. You could support both monkey and duress if you limit white to 2cc creatures only. The deck would rely slightly more on vials, but be more powerful in the early turns. 12 black, 12 red, 9 white. If you want a double splash, any WG creatures become more troublesome (needing both your splash colors).

EDIT2: Which are best in a deck with 9 strips: Flesh reaver or veteran brawlers?

[Guli]

Arbiter as a new card from Mirrodin does force us to create the mana base more carefully. I don't use fetch lands.

4x Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby
4x City of Brass
4x Vial
3x Scrubland
3x Plateau
9x Strip, Ghost, Waste

27 cards that CAN give you the means to put your threats on the board.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Arbiter as a new card from Mirrodin does force us to create the mana base more carefully. I don't use fetch lands.

4x Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby
4x City of Brass
4x Vial
3x Scrubland
3x Plateau
9x Strip, Ghost, Waste

27 cards that CAN give you the means to put your threats on the board.

Huh. Yes. I understand.

This is 11 solid white sources, 8 black and 8 red. That is highly unstable in my book. I value mana stability high enough that I would drop a color for it. Vial should not be relied on in such a degree and I find 9 total black sources questionable if you run thoughtseize and want to resolve it turn one. If you run 3 colours, you should consider which risk is higher: The risk of hosing your own fetches and that of being locked out of one of your colours.

[nineisnoone]

Well since suppression field is unplayable and this guy is supposedly the nutz, and has a quite similiar effect obviously the 2/2 part is apparently what makes it soo much more awesome. I question wether or not that is really enough?

Oh and both seal of cleansing and seal of primordium was and is playable - So pridemage is obv. also quite good.

I don't think this particular bear is better then the other 1 million 2/2 hate-bears.

Again... I 100% agree that he is not the nutz.  I think our opinion deviates more about how good the "other 1 million 2/2 hate bears" are.  I mean, what hate-bears do you think is BETTER than arbiter?

And I want to see these lists that ran 4 main deck Seals.... The only deck I could see where it would matter is when everyone was obsessed with Tarmogoyf (which still wasn't a great idea).  Other than that It's always been blue mass for bounce/Energy Flux, red for Rack and Ruin, green for Nature's Claim, or red/green for Ancient Grudge.  

When say that seal is "playable" you are using a completely different definition than Pridemage.  If you are using it as a one-of hate card, you would still use Seal over Pridemage.  But if you are looking at a 4X backbone of a deck, you would never use Seal.  Obviously, Suppression Field (or Arbiter) simply do not work as a one-of hate card simply due to how the card works, just like how people won't generally randomly toss in a single Sphere of Resistance.  It's a soft-lock piece that requires a deck to be built around it to function, soft locks are never almost playable as one-ofs, even otherwise playable ones.  

You want to argue whether it's better or worse than a "vague list of unnamed cards", but all I'm trying to say is that yes, the attacking element is a significant enough distinction to make it a playable Suppression Field (if you want to call it that).  It's that element that let's it attack that allows it to be function as a soft-lock, otherwise it needs to be broke (Null Rod) or hate (Seal).  

[BruiZar]

Back on topic, I think I underestimated the power of Mox Opal. Right now, my favorite cards in the set are Mox Opal and Etched Champion. Mox Opal is such an unfair card in legacy and vintage, and Etched Champion is a house by itself in legacy.



The thing does not die! It's a great card to attach an Umezawa's Jitte or a Cranial Plating to. Can't get plowshared, can't get bounced, can't get Qasali Pridemaged, can't get Krosan Gripped. The only thing you can do against it is Innocent Blood, chump it with a manland (which you obviously Waste), or trigger a Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives. It slows down aggro tremendously and 'land walks' for lethal when you equip it.

[Troy_Costisick]

Or you can just counter it.  Or Ratchet Bomb.  Or Powder Keg.  Is The Source all a-buzz about this thing?  I haven't checked there in a few days, but last I saw, it was dismissed pretty harshly.

[BruiZar]

Or you can just counter it.  Or Ratchet Bomb.  Or Powder Keg.  Is The Source all a-buzz about this thing?  I haven't checked there in a few days, but last I saw, it was dismissed pretty harshly.

Powder Keg hardly sees any play. I don't expect Ratchet Bomb to fill a role that Powder Keg can't fill in legacy since not many people run Votlaic Key. You can counter any card so that's hardly an argument. That said, I wish this guy was 1 power bigger, so that it could deal with Loam Lions, Nacatls or Qasali Pridemage with Exalted. Still, Etched Champion is a versatile creature that can significantly delay your opponent from stomping you in the ground, while you build up for an alpha strike.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Or you just stop whatever good artifacts need to be played to make it not a horrible card and then laugh at the crappy 3 mana 2/2?

[Tha Gunslinga]

and Etched Champion is a house by itself in legacy.



The thing does not die! It's a great card to attach an Umezawa's Jitte or a Cranial Plating to. Can't get plowshared, can't get bounced, can't get Qasali Pridemaged, can't get Krosan Gripped. The only thing you can do against it is Innocent Blood, chump it with a manland (which you obviously Waste), or trigger a Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives. It slows down aggro tremendously and 'land walks' for lethal when you equip it.

It's a 2/2 for 3.  I can't imagine this being playable in any way in Legacy.  Who cares if you can't remove it?  Iridescent Angel and Pristine Angel aren't really tearing up the Legacy format.